Why won't non-Catholic Christians recite the Holy Rosary?

[KenEOTE]

Devotion to Mary has traditionally existed in the life of the Church since the first century. The Gospels of Luke and John indicate the high esteem in which Mary was held by the Christian community in Palestine and her high position above all the faithful: her Divine maternity, sinlessness, perpetual virginity, and powerful intercessory role. The early Church prayed through Mary for her intercession believing that she is alive body and soul in heaven together with Jesus.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

Good Fella, This is interesting can you tell me where in the Gospels of Luke and John this is located?

 

[guanophore]

The limited access to the Scriptures in the early centuries explains why there are many unbilical practices in the church.

LOL. No, ja4, the Church was never “bible based”. The Church was founded by Jesus, and is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, not the bible. The Apostolic teaching has been whole and entire since the beginning, before a word of it was committed to writing.

Acts 2:40-42
“Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

There was nothing defiicent about this Teaching, and it did not become deficient when part of it was committted to writing.

The rosary is incapable of teaching people the deeper truths of the Scriptures for example.

The Rosary is a meditative devotion, and when used properly, is a great aid in reflecting on the deeper truths of the Gospels. It is not the only devotion, and it is not intended to be a “study” from the academic point of view.

I agree, however, that a person such as yourself is incapable of benefitting from such a devotion when it comes to better grasping the deeper truths.

Most catholics i know are not that familar with most of the Scriptures though. They are missing out in so many of the truths of the Scriptures that would greatly enrich their lives. It is in the Scriptures that we see how we are to live in and for Christ.

I agree that there are way too many Catholics who don’t know their Bibles. however, Jesus founded the Church so that we would be able to know how we are to live in and for Christ. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth. This was the case before a word of the NT was ever written.

An understanding of the Scriptures is a far greater thing to do. By it we grow in respect to salvation. I Peter 2:2 is clear about this when Peter writes–like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

You are mistaking this instruction with written word, which did not exist yet at the time. Peter was speaking of the preached word. I agree, though, that the Scriptures do enhance growth. Some people find that the Rosary meditations do the same.

It is also by knowing the words of Christ and having those words abide in us that whatever we ask we recieve. See john 15:7.

Do you somehow imagine that the Rosary is not a biblical prayer?

Also it is by keeping His commandments that we abide in His love. John 15:10

Yes. Those who pray their Rosary daily obey His model of how we should pray much better than those of us who do not. I have heard some people admit that it has been “many months” since they prayed the Lord’s prayer, for example.

Prayer to Mary is not biblical. There are no prayers or exhortations in the Scriptures to pray to Mary.

Well, we see it differently.
What is puzzling, ja4, is why you can’t just let this go. Why can’t you be content to avoid this devotion, and go on your way? Instead you seem to feel a compulsion to tear others away from this life giving source of spiritual fortitude. Why is that?

Praying to Mary is not biblical.

Even if this were true, which it is not, we could also say that the word “Trinity” is not biblical, and that TV preachers are not biblical, nor altar calls, revivals, Greek study tools, and a number of other things that Christians find helpful.

 

[Cinette]

I refer to “Justasking4”'s comments about the Rosary. He has called himself “Justasking” and one would think that this means that he is enquiring and interested in knowing what Catholics believe regarding the Rosary. What he has done is attack and criticize which is not constructive.

The Rosary is a meditation on the Gospels. The Hail Mary is totally biblical - the first part can be found in Luke… First the greeting of the Angel Gabriel and then the greeting of Elizabeth when Mary went to visit her. The second part of the Hail Mary is asking Mary to pray for us. This prayer is biblical and beautiful.

“Justasking4” sounds like a person who has grown up in a community that is totally biased against the Catholic Church and will find every excuse to “bash” the Church.

This is an immature attitude and very destructive. Justasking4 is being destructive to himself (or herself). We all need to keep an open mind. There are lots of Protestants who recite the Rosary.

“Love, love changes everything…”

 

[Jimmy_B]

I refer to “Justasking4”'s comments about the Rosary. He has called himself “Justasking” and one would think that this means that he is enquiring and interested in knowing what Catholics believe regarding the Rosary. What he has done is attack and criticize which is not constructive.

The Rosary is a meditation on the Gospels. The Hail Mary is totally biblical - the first part can be found in Luke… First the greeting of the Angel Gabriel and then the greeting of Elizabeth when Mary went to visit her. The second part of the Hail Mary is asking Mary to pray for us. This prayer is biblical and beautiful.

“Justasking4” sounds like a person who has grown up in a community that is totally biased against the Catholic Church and will find every excuse to “bash” the Church.

This is an immature attitude and very destructive. Justasking4 is being destructive to himself (or herself). We all need to keep an open mind. There are lots of Protestants who recite the Rosary.

“Love, love changes everything…”

Some fish fight the hardest, just before… being pulled into the boat…

 

[justasking4]

Ronald E;4054185]The Holy Spirit teaches the deeper truths through praying the Rosary. It was Mary who joined with the Holy Spirit like nobody before or since and created and brought God through Her Womb as Jesus. That is pretty deep. Name any human being who is greater than Mary.

John the Baptist. This is what Jesus said about him in Matthew 11:11–11 “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

None of the apostles are. They could never know Jesus like Mary the Mother of God.

I disagree. Mary was not included as an apostle. Keep in mind that it was they who had the privilege of spending 3 years with Him and being taught by Him.

Even in terms of influence the apostles have far greater influence than she did. We have the writings of the apostles while we have no writings or teachings of Mary.

No man can know the love a mother has for her child. No man can know the bond that exists between them. Can you describe that bond? No.

Any man who is a father can understand this.

Theology will fall short of knowing the Truth that is in the bible of the Union between Mary, the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father. That union is something that cannot be put into words. Paul did not know that Truth. He could not know that Truth. He was a man.
That is a GREAT MYSTERY. That is one of the GREAT MYSTERIES we contemplate praying the Rosary.
So tell me how much deeper do you want to go with this?

What do the Scriptures say about Mary’s relationship to Christ, the HS and the Father?

We do not pray to Mary.

Not so. The hail Mary is one of many prayers directed to her.

We pray with Mary to Her Son Jesus. By doing this we honor the 4th Commandment. As a result all of the Commandments are honored.

Where in any of the commandments that deals with honor does it say that praying to that person is honoring that person?

 

[Ronald_E]

John the Baptist. This is what Jesus said about him in Matthew 11:11–11 “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I disagree. Mary was not included as an apostle. Keep in mind that it was they who had the privilege of spending 3 years with Him and being taught by Him.

Even in terms of influence the apostles have far greater influence than she did. We have the writings of the apostles while we have no writings or teachings of Mary.

Any man who is a father can understand this.

What do the Scriptures say about Mary’s relationship to Christ, the HS and the Father?

Not so. The hail Mary is one of many prayers directed to her.

Where in any of the commandments that deals with honor does it say that praying to that person is honoring that person?

I have to go to work now. Look into the picture that each word paints and think about the meaning of Mother of Jesus and how there are 3 persons in 1 God. I am a father and I know I can never know what it is like to create a human being inside my body.
Please look carefully beyond what you may have been conditioned to think. Please. It is beautiful.

 

[Little_Mary]

Don’t confuse “Pray to” with “Worship”.

We pray to Mary. We do not worship her. We ask her to pray for us.

We worship God. We also pray to God (asking for things). We worship God alone.

We do not worship Mary.

Just trying to be clear, here.

Justasking4 mentioned that there are many prayers addressed TO Mary. That is true.

There are no prayers to WORSHP Mary.

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella, This is interesting can you tell me where in the Gospels of Luke and John this is located?

1. Mary, the Mother of God

“But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord ‘adonis’ = Lord God] should come to me?”
Luke 1, 43

On coming to the house, they (the Magi) saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshipped him.
Matthew 2, 11

1. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Mary asked the angel, “How shall this be, seeing I do not know a man?”
Luke 1, 34

1. The Immaculate Conception (sinlessness) and Assumption of Mary

The angel went to her and said, “Hail, full of grace. (Chaire kecharitomene.) The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

“My ‘soul’ glorifies the Lord. My ‘spirit’ rejoices in God my Saviour.”
[Indicative Mood: I am saved.]
Luke 1, 46-47

1. Mary: Mediatrix, co-Redemptrix, and Advocatrix

When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 2-5

(Simeon said to Mary,)“And a sword will pierce even your own soul, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

Pax
Good Fella

 

[Cinette]

Justasking4 said:

*Even in terms of influence the apostles have far greater influence than she did. We have the writings of the apostles while we have no writings or teachings of Mary.
*

First of all Mary is the Arc of the New Covenant. She was impregnated through the Holy Spirit and bore Jesus who was wholy divine and wholy man - Mary gave birth to God made Man. She is therefore the Mother of God the Son.

Justasking4 you may not believe this but Mary has appeared to many people over the centuries and has been instrumental in the performance of many miracles. Her messages/instructions point us always to Jesus. The CC does not easily recognize miracles. For example during the 150 years of the existance of Lourdes the Church has only recognized 66 miracles - sometimes the Church take as long as 20 years to authenticate a miracle - She analyses, observes, we must see the fruits of the miracles. Do you know the story of Our Lady of Guadaloupe? It would blow you away.

Who could be a greater human being than the woman who bore Jesus - Jesus was fully human and got his genes from Mary. No man can understand the experience of bearing a child and nourishing the child at the breast. That is not the role of man. It is the unique role of women. In French we say “Vive la diference”. Men have their own special role too.

Did you have a loving Mogther Justasking4? Can you imagine what it means to us to have the love of our Holy Mother Mary? I believe that for you Protestants it is very difficult for you to understand our feelings for our Blessed Mother.

May I suggest you read Scott Hahn’s book “Hail Holy Queen”. It may bring you to understand the significance and role of this fantastic woman. By the way Scott Hahn was a Protestant also at one time who didn’t like the CC at all. Now, nobody could be more in love with the Church. After more than 20 years you can see the excitement on his face when he talks about the Church.

The CC is the most exciting thing in my life and one learns more and more each day. The Church is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1Tim3:15).

Maybe one day you will will be blown away by “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”.

Blessings :yup:

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Don’t confuse “Pray to” with “Worship”.

We pray to Mary. We do not worship her. We ask her to pray for us.

We worship God. We also pray to God (asking for things). We worship God alone.

We do not worship Mary.

Just trying to be clear, here.

Justasking4 mentioned that there are many prayers addressed TO Mary. That is true.

There are no prayers to WORSHP Mary.

He knows this. But does he want to listen?

 

[KenEOTE]

1. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Mary asked the angel, “How shall this be, seeing I do not know a man?”
Luke 1, 34

Pax
Good Fella

She was a virgin how does that state that she remained a virgin?

Personally I do not understand the anger people have that she might have made love to her husband.

Matthew 1:18
Conception and Birth of Jesus ] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, **before they came together **she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit
Wouldn’t this mean that they eventually did come together?

Matthew 1:24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,

Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

This is from the New American Standard Version.

 

[KenEOTE]

Here it is in the Douay-Rheims Bible which is an approved Catholic Bible.

24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The statement of knowing ones wife is a reference through out the Bible to mean they consummated the marriage. Obviously he knew who she was before this… but did not know her physically till after she gave birth to Jesus.

Can someone explain why it would be such a horrible thing for Mary and Joseph to be a loving couple whole knew each other intimately?

 

[Ronald_E]

She was a virgin how does that state that she remained a virgin?

Personally I do not understand the anger people have that she might have made love to her husband.

Matthew 1:18
Conception and Birth of Jesus ] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, **before they came together **she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit
Wouldn’t this mean that they eventually did come together?

Before I ran my car into a telephone pole in 1967 after my girlfriend had gone out with my bestfriend while I was in the military my roommate punched me in the face and knocked me cold. I am still here and never had a union with the telephone pole.

Matthew 1:24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,

Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

This is from the New American Standard Version.

He did what God wanted him to do knowing that he would not be able to satisfy his desire for a physical union. He knew that she had a holy union with the Holy Spirit and that his mission was to protect her from harm
Jeremiah 31:22 “…for God has created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man.”
Revelation 11:19 “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple…”
Rv 12:1-12 “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child…Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son…”
If we have Christ in us we are a new creation. We are no longer led by our biological nature and its natural desires. We are led by the Spirit.
If you look at Mary through your natural biological nature you would then make the assumption that Mary and Joseph would have a union like the rest of us.
The Mother of God was not created to be like the rest of us. She was not born of man like the rest of us. She was born of the Spirit.
Therefore she must be known and understood in relationship to the Spirit who had union with her to bring God into the world.
I am curious. Would it be possible for you to write that Mary is the Mother of God in your post?

 

[KenEOTE]

Before I ran my car into a telephone pole in 1967 after my girlfriend had gone out with my bestfriend while I was in the military my roommate punched me in the face and knocked me cold. I am still here and never had a union with the telephone pole.

He did what God wanted him to do knowing that he would not be able to satisfy his desire for a physical union. He knew that she had a holy union with the Holy Spirit and that his mission was to protect her from harm
Jeremiah 31:22 “…for God has created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man.”
Revelation 11:19 “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple…”
Rv 12:1-12 “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child…Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son…”
If we have Christ in us we are a new creation. We are no longer led by our biological nature and its natural desires. We are led by the Spirit.
If you look at Mary through your natural biological nature you would then make the assumption that Mary and Joseph would have a union like the rest of us.
The Mother of God was not created to be like the rest of us. She was not born of man like the rest of us. She was born of the Spirit.
Therefore she must be known and understood in relationship to the Spirit who had union with her to bring God into the world.
I am curious. Would it be possible for you to write that Mary is the Mother of God in your post?

Your first statement is silly. One needs to only go back to the original Greek that the words being used there are the same ones used for knowing as in very intimately. IN a way that only a husband and wife are permitted.

So OK you have Christ in you. Are you no longer led by your biological or natural desires? If she was lead by her natural desires what is wrong with that? God created men and women to go forth and multiply. God made man and woman to become one. I just don’t see the problem with them being like a husband and wife are suppose to be as commanded by God.

Why do I need to say Mary is the Mother of God? That is common knowledge. Me saying or not saying it doesn’t change who she is. I could also refer to her as Mary my mother, since isn’t she considered the mother to us all?

“The Mother of God was not created to be like the rest of us. She was not born of man like the rest of us. She was born of the Spirit.” Can you explain where that comes from I am curious where that is? Other than in the Infancy Gospel of James. Which is the only place I have found that statement made.

 

[KenEOTE]

Before I ran my car into a telephone pole in 1967 after my girlfriend had gone out with my bestfriend while I was in the military my roommate punched me in the face and knocked me cold. I am still here and never had a union with the telephone pole.

He did what God wanted him to do knowing that he would not be able to satisfy his desire for a physical union. He knew that she had a holy union with the Holy Spirit and that his mission was to protect her from harm
Jeremiah 31:22 “…for God has created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man.”
Revelation 11:19 “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple…”
Rv 12:1-12 “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child…Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son…”
If we have Christ in us we are a new creation. We are no longer led by our biological nature and its natural desires. We are led by the Spirit.
If you look at Mary through your natural biological nature you would then make the assumption that Mary and Joseph would have a union like the rest of us.
The Mother of God was not created to be like the rest of us. She was not born of man like the rest of us. She was born of the Spirit.
Therefore she must be known and understood in relationship to the Spirit who had union with her to bring God into the world.
I am curious. Would it be possible for you to write that Mary is the Mother of God in your post?

Also you quoted this:
Matthew 1:24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,

Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

But did not answer it. What does it mean when it says but kept her a virgin until? Wouldn’t that mean that after she gave birth to Jesus the consummated the marriage?
Were Mary and Joseph husband and wife? I guess that is my question. By Jewish Law they wouldn’t be until they consummated.

 

[Ronald_E]

Your first statement is silly. One needs to only go back to the original Greek that the words being used there are the same ones used for knowing as in very intimately. IN a way that only a husband and wife are permitted.

Is it silly because you do not see the meaning? It means that it did not happen. It does not imply that it ever happened. I was about to kill myself and was prevented. Does it mean that I killed myself later since I had been prevented earlier?

So OK you have Christ in you. Are you no longer led by your biological or natural desires? If she was lead by her natural desires what is wrong with that?

First of all, do you see the significance of Mary’s conception of God? There is nothing natural about that. Why can’t you see it? I am curious. Can you tell me why you can’t see it? It is extremely clear to me how miraculous and Holy this union of Mary to the Holy Spirit is.

God created men and women to go forth and multiply. God made man and woman to become one. I just don’t see the problem with them being like a husband and wife are suppose to be as commanded by God.

She is no ordinary woman and he is no ordinary man. How could they live in the flesh after she was joined to the Holy Spirit and creates God into Jesus and brings Him into the world through Her Womb? Nothing in this world could ever match that meaning and purpose. When we are new creations we are no longer driven by the flesh and the demands of the world. She was given her purpose by God and she fulfilled it. Our purpose is different.

Why do I need to say Mary is the Mother of God? That is common knowledge. Me saying or not saying it doesn’t change who she is. I could also refer to her as Mary my mother, since isn’t she considered the mother to us all?

Why didn’t you write that Mary is the Mother of God? When we write something it becomes real. It may be common knowledge and that is the problem. To treat her as common knowledge is treating the Mother of God as common.

“The Mother of God was not created to be like the rest of us. She was not born of man like the rest of us. She was born of the Spirit.” Can you explain where that comes from I am curious where that is? Other than in the Infancy Gospel of James. Which is the only place I have found that statement made.

Well that came while I was writing that post. It hit me that she had to be free from the effects of sin and consequently she would have been saved or born again at the moment of conception in order to be pure for God’s purpose and to remain pure through the years of her development until her maturity. I am leaving now, my wife is doing a duathalon which is a 2 mile run, a half-mile swim and a 3 mile run. This is in 103 degrees temp. She is tougher than me.
God Bless You

 

[Cinette]

I have heard Protestants refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as a mere “vessel”. I am a mother and would be hurt if my children considered me as a vessel!!

To be chosen as the Mother of God the Son she had to be special - free from original sin. If it didn’t matter then she would have been conceived through the sexual act but no, the Holy Spirit was her spouse. Her purpose was fulfilled when she conceived through the Holy Spirit. Of course she also bore, nursed, raised and loved to the very end our beloved Lord and Saviour and he gave her to us at the foot of the cross. Jesus asked John to take care of Mary (another proof that she had no other children because then He would not have any need to ask John to take care of her)

The main purpose of sex is for procreation and God made it pleasurable so that we would indulge in it with our spouses in love and for us to multiply. We experience pleasurable and passionate feelings when we have sex. Somehow I cannot see someone of the calibre of the Blessed Mary indulging in this kind of activity because her primary purpose was not to procreate. She was intended as Jesus’ Mother.

We may ask a lot of questions but we must also remember that Faith is “believing without doubting whatever God has revealed”. Didn’t St Augustine say something like this “you have to believe in order to understand and not understand in order to believe” (I am paraphrasing of course).

Do I understand the Eucharist? Of course not. Do I believe? Yes I do because I love and trust Jesus.

So my friend we have to use a little savvy (that is not a w) and step back and look at the whole picture and ask ourselves what do we “see”.

Blessings

:bowdown2: :doh2:

 

[sola_scriptura]

I have heard Protestants refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as a mere “vessel”. I am a mother and would be hurt if my children considered me as a vessel!!

Here we go … the protestants are mother haters line of attack.

To be chosen as the Mother of God the Son she had to be special - free from original sin.

Why is this?

Mary in every sense represents humanity and Israel. It was her flesh that Christ inherits. However, that flesh was no more immune from pain or anything else than our flesh is. Jesus is a story of the Spirit mastering the flesh. Jesus doesn’t inherit sinlessness from Mary, to the contrary He inherits our nature from her and overcomes it.

He is our substitutionary sacrifice. By His obedience those in Him are perfected.

If it didn’t matter then she would have been conceived through the sexual act but no, the Holy Spirit was her spouse.

Are you saying Mary herself was conceived by the Holy Spirit?

Her purpose was fulfilled when she conceived through the Holy Spirit. Of course she also bore, nursed, raised and loved to the very end our beloved Lord and Saviour and he gave her to us at the foot of the cross. Jesus asked John to take care of Mary (another proof that she had no other children because then He would not have any need to ask John to take care of her)

I wouldn’t call it proof, let alone “another” proof (what else is there really)? Either it was children or cousins. If it weren’t for the RCC pushing the idea of cousins no one would have ever come with such an idea. Even the Greek church thinks Joseph brought children into the marriage, which is at least plausible (I find it hard to believe that the Roman church has a better handle on Hellenic Greek than the Greek church)?

However, remember Jesus died as a very young man. If He had siblings and Mary bore them it’s probable they were much younger. There could have been many reasons Jesus entrusted Mary to John’s care. In fact asking a beloved friend to look after a loved one doesn’t require that the loved one be alone without any other support?

The main purpose of sex is for procreation and God made it pleasurable so that we would indulge in it with our spouses in love and for us to multiply. We experience pleasurable and passionate feelings when we have sex. Somehow I cannot see someone of the calibre of the Blessed Mary indulging in this kind of activity because her primary purpose was not to procreate. She was intended as Jesus’ Mother.

I’m not sure why we need to think Mary didn’t have a normal marriage with her husband Joseph? Or why she was spiritually married to the Holy Spirit while temporally married to Joseph. That notion is so problematic I don’t even know where to start.

This notion of thinking sex within a marriage is bad or evil or would have somehow corrupted Mary comes from a place that is hard to fathom.

 

[Cinette]

Here we go … the protestants are mother haters line of attack.

Why is this?

Mary in every sense represents humanity and Israel. It was her flesh that Christ inherits. However, that flesh was no more immune from pain or anything else than our flesh is. Jesus is a story of the Spirit mastering the flesh. Jesus doesn’t inherit sinlessness from Mary, to the contrary He inherits our nature from her and overcomes it.

He is our substitutionary sacrifice. By His obedience those in Him are perfected.

Are you saying Mary herself was conceived by the Holy Spirit?

I wouldn’t call it proof, let alone “another” proof (what else is there really)? Either it was children or cousins. If it weren’t for the RCC pushing the idea of cousins no one would have ever come with such an idea. Even the Greek church thinks Joseph brought children into the marriage, which is at least plausible (I find it hard to believe that the Roman church has a better handle on Hellenic Greek than the Greek church)?

However, remember Jesus died as a very young man. If He had siblings and Mary bore them it’s probable they were much younger. There could have been many reasons Jesus entrusted Mary to John’s care. In fact asking a beloved friend to look after a loved one doesn’t require that the loved one be alone without any other support?

I’m not sure why we need to think Mary didn’t have a normal marriage with her husband Joseph? Or why she was spiritually married to the Holy Spirit while temporally married to Joseph. That notion is so problematic I don’t even know where to start.

This notion of thinking sex within a marriage is bad or evil or would have somehow corrupted Mary comes from a place that is hard to fathom.

**Sola Scriptura - you are argumentative and there is no pleasure to debate with someone like you.

I didn’t mean that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit - that was a slip of the finger!

As I said you have to step back and look at the big picture. If you cannot see that Mary’s purpose was to give birth to Jesus and not for procreation then…

Nobody said that sex is bad except you Sola - I said it was pleasurable remember…

**

 

[Little_Mary]

In the language of the day back then, there was no other word for cousins, or kin. The word brother was used.

The Catholic church (or the RCC, as Sola so irreverntly refers to it) is not comprised of a bunch of slouches. It’s a 2,000 year old institution stemming directly from Christ and His twelve.

If people choose to ignore this, and argue such points as to whether Mary and Joseph had children after Jesus, let them. They were married and it was certainly their prerogative.

I personally cannot even fathom it. As IN LOVE with Jesus as most evangelicals like Sola are, you’d think they’d have a little more honor and respect for His mother. He certainly did. He performed His first miracle at her request - just a caveat.

This isn’t even on topic anyway. Just had to pipe up!