Why won't non-Catholic Christians recite the Holy Rosary?

[Good_Fella]

In terms of requesting intercession from those in the church who had died there are no examples in Acts, the Epistles, and while we have mention in Jesus’ parable in Luke 16 of the dead Rich Man interceding with Abraham to send Lazarus to speak to his brothers, it certainly doesn’t set a precedent for living church members to ask dead saints to pray for them. Praying to the saints doesn’t appear as part of Apostolic practice.

As for the two verses quoted, there is no quarrel between us that Christians continue to be Christians after their death, but there’s no more mandate to continue asking them to pray for us any more than we would continue to ask them to usher, serve communion, sing in the choir or teach Sunday school.

As for the repetitive aspect, Jesus condemned “vain repetition” which must be a subset of repetition or the term would be redundant… The repetitive nature of the Pharisees’ prayers was in vain because their motive was wrong and the focus was not on God. Likewise for me, continued repetition of a prayer or phrase is more distracting for me than beneficial…

If the recitation of the Rosary does not arise from the heart accompanied by a deep contemplation of the divine mysteries, then certainly it would be a vain devotional exercise. Said properly and sincerely, the Rosary is a great instrument of God’s grace next to the Sacraments. If we fail to meditate on the meanings of the words and phrases in any formal common prayer, of course it would be distracting, but in this case the source of distraction would not be the prayer itself. Mundane thoughts and concerns weighing on our minds normally are the culprits. Repetitive prayer serves as an exercise in focussing purely on the sacred. The important thing about reciting the ‘Our Father’ or ‘Hail Mary’ is that this practice unites the entire body of Christ in one great universal supplication. The Church is a collective body. Individualism must not take precedence.

When Peter answered our Lord three times whether he loved him, there was no vain repetition. Each time we repeat the common prayers of the Rosary from the heart its like telling Jesus and Mary over again that we love them. Peter was disconcerted by our Lord’s repetitive questions for he felt that Jesus was questioning the sincerity of his love, although we believe our Lord was alluding to the apostle’s threefold denial of Christ. Each time we express our love for Jesus and Mary by praying with the same declarations from the heart, we reconfirm and strengthen our love for them.

James and John teach us in their letters that the prayers of a righteous person is of great benefit for the salvation of others. Jesus and Paul exhort us to pray for each other in an intercessory capacity. And Paul does reveal to us in his epistles that the mystical body of Christ consists of all the faithful in heaven and on earth. If we are to pray ‘for’ each other, then naturally we will ask other believers to pray for us and remember us in their intentions. Since the departed holy ones are still part of the one mystical body of Christ together with the living in this life and form a “cloud of witnesses”, interceding for us and encouraging us, there is no reason why we should refrain from supplicating them for God’s helping graces. In fact we are better off petitioning them, for they have earned their glorious heavenly crowns by having persevered in faith through love. Their holiness has victoriously been tested and refined by fire. Our Lord’s parable does indeed reveal that the faithful departed offer up intercessory prayers for all believers on earth. This revelation in itself should provide an incentive for us to pray to them and through them to our Lord.

I’m sure you would agree that not everything Jesus and the apostles did was recorded in the Scriptures. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that they didn’t do other things. What we do know is that the Son of Man was transfigured and conversed with the departed Moses and Elijah, which clearly shows that the living can communicate with the dead who are actually living in the kingdom of heaven that is in our midst. Indeed, they have capabilities that immeasurably exceed our physical limitations. Moreover, Jesus could have called upon twelve legions of angels at the time of his arrest. It’s presumptuous to think that we are communicatively severed from those who are alive in Christ in heaven. It’s wise for us to heed the words of Jesus, who said that he would send his Church the Paraclete to guide her in all truth until the end of this age, preserving her from teaching false doctrines.

If the Apostles failed to perceive the divine truth of our connection with the Communion of Saints, it’s probably because God decided not to reveal it to them. Still, prayers to the departed saints and martyrs may have been offered, notwithstanding no record of this devotional practice. The Scriptures must sometimes be read in a plenary sense; a sole literal, historical approach may lead one to a deficient understanding of God’s word. In any event, the Church did not expire with the death of the last apostle. The Paraclete has been sent to the Church. The Spirit of truth was not specifcally sent to the Twelve. The same Spirit guides their valid successors, by “the laying on of hands” - the Episcopacy of the one universal Church.

We do have documented evidence that praying to the faithful departed had existed by the beginning of the third century. Appealing to the three companions of Daniel:

“Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.”
Hyppolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204)

PAX :harp:

 

[Cinette]

Hello Cinette I hope and trust you had a wonderfull Christmas and will continue throuhthe New Year.
When I read Acts and 1 Corinthians I see a Christian Community that does not look like nor act like the Roman Catholic Church.
When Christianity cast off its Jewish roots it threw away its compass.
Books recommended are Capernicus and the Jews, Homecoming (a return to the roots of our faith) and Constatines Sword.

Thank you Hisalone for your kind wishes - I hope that you also had a Blessed and Joyous Christmas and that the New Year will be good for you and for all. We need to pray for our World and its people.

When you look at the Church you see it in its outward and inward form. In regard to its inward form that never changes insofar as core beliefs and teachings are concerned. The Church stands firm in its beliefs right from the very beginning. The Holy Spirit has never let us down.

Insofar as the outward form is concerned that will change naturally as life on our planet evolves.

Thank you for the book references. I will take a look although I have so many books on my shelves still to be read. But nevertheless I will look into at least one of those books.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[bookgirl32]

When you have a question whether you go to the teaching of Catholicism or you turn to lok in the bible tells what your authority is. The teachings of Catholicism or the word of God. The teachings of man or the word of God?
You would say that the teachings of theCatholic Church are the word of God. I wold disagree.

Okay, thanks for NOT answering my question. You would have it backwards, I would say the Word of God is entrusted to the Catholic Church, which then cooperated with God in producing the Scriptures of the New Testament, and canonizing the Scriptures of the old.

So you really think there was a 300 year gap between when Jesus lived and any sort of Christianity actually began b/c it had to wait for the Bible?

 

[guanophore]

That said, why do I believe it to be probable? Because the other texts in Acts, the Epistles, the entire Bible shows examples of prayer as an important part of ascertaining the will of God. So in light of those examples, one can suggest that prayer played a role in the Jerusalem Council.

It would be difficult to know how they discerned the will of the HS otherwise.

In terms of requesting intercession from those in the church who had died there are no examples in Acts, the Epistles, and while we have mention in Jesus’ parable in Luke 16 of the dead Rich Man interceding with Abraham to send Lazarus to speak to his brothers, it certainly doesn’t set a precedent for living church members to ask dead saints to pray for them. Praying to the saints doesn’t appear as part of Apostolic practice, and for that reason I find it to be of doubtful provenance and don’t do it as part of my prayer life.

I can understand this for those who have been separated from the Apostolic Tradition, and fallen into the error of SolaScriptura. How could such a person know what the Apostolic practices are?

but there’s no more mandate to continue asking them to pray for us

except that scripture enjoins us to pray for one another…

any more than we would continue to ask them to usher, serve communion, sing in the choir or teach Sunday school.

Oh, I don’t know! It is amazing what God empowers the saints to do! They pray for us in heaven, awaiting The Day.

The idea some Catholic apologists put forward of there being no difference between living and dead church members loses a lot of its steam when one considers those examples and not just prayer.

Those who have died in Christ has “ceased from their labors”.

As for the repetitive aspect, Jesus condemned “vain repetition” which must be a subset of repetition or the term would be redundant (a lot of Protestants miss that point). The repetitive nature of the Pharisees’ prayers was in vain because their motive was wrong and the focus was not on God. Likewise for me, continued repetition of a prayer or phrase is more distracting for me than beneficial so it isn’t a form of prayer I practice. I have a great deal of respect for the Jesus Prayer, but for the same reason I don’t practice it.

Yes, I agree. I prefer the Liturgy of the Hours to the Rosary.

 

[guanophore]

It means that you have been decieved into believing that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded.You base your entire belief system on this presuposition which is false.

Really!

What Church did He found?

Who was He talking about when He said "you are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my Church?

Why do you think He changed Simon’s name, for no reason?

 

[guanophore]

For God is a holy God let there be no Gods before Him.

Indeed! This would be very antiCatholic!

Are you under some misapprehension that Catholics worship Mary?

 

[guanophore]

When I read 1 Corinthians I see a Christian Community that does not look like nor act like the Roman Catholic Church.

I would hope not! However, to be honest,most of these abuses mentioned, and worse, have occurred since that letter. What has not changed is the doctrine.

**

Hisalone:
When Christianity cast off its Jewish roots it threw away its compass. **

I agree. This happened in the 15o0’s when the Reformers separated themselves from the Apostolic Tradition. The Apostles were all Jews, you know.

 

[Pier]

My non-Catholic Christian Bible-only friends do not recite the Hail Mary, even though it’s from the Bible, and the Bible clearly states that she is blessed among women…

Where’s the OP?

 

[Hisalone]

Okay, thanks for NOT answering my question. You would have it backwards, I would say the Word of God is entrusted to the Catholic Church, which then cooperated with God in producing the Scriptures of the New Testament, and canonizing the Scriptures of the old.

So you really think there was a 300 year gap between when Jesus lived and any sort of Christianity actually began b/c it had to wait for the Bible?

The early church learned the scriptures where they were in Jewish synagogues.
There was not the disconnect that we have today from the OT to the NT it was all one timeline.

 

[Hisalone]

Indeed! This would be very antiCatholic!

Are you under some misapprehension that Catholics worship Mary?

Catholics blur the line between the divine and the human but for the most part do not worship Mary.
It is that the blurring of the line between what is holy and what is profane that I said the above quote.

 

[Hisalone]

I would hope not! However, to be honest,most of these abuses mentioned, and worse, have occurred since that letter. What has not changed is the doctrine.

**

I agree. This happened in the 15o0’s when the Reformers separated themselves from the Apostolic Tradition. The Apostles were all Jews, you know.**

The apostles celebrated the Jewish Passover which the Roman Church condemned.

 

[Hisalone]

My non-Catholic Christian Bible-only friends do not recite the Hail Mary, even though it’s from the Bible, and the Bible clearly states that she is blessed among women…

Where’s the OP?

Jesus taught us how to prqy and it wasnt the rosary.
Why do my Catholic riends not follow Jesus?

 

[Pier]

Jesus taught us how to prqy and it wasnt the rosary.
Why do my Catholic riends not follow Jesus?

We do indeed pray the Our Father - of course we can pray it privately, & it is also said every day at the Mass, where our Daily Bread of our Lord’s Blessed Eucharist can be received if one so chooses.

 

[believers]

Why won’t non-Catholic Christians recite the Holy Rosary?

Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John ALSO taught his disciples

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

The "WHEN ye pray,say, Our Father… " clause doesn’t leave room for Mary.

Jesus taught to direct all prayers to the Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

According to John 14:13… The Father is glorified when we pray to the Father in Jesus name. This leaves no room for any prayers directed to anyone else.

 

[Pier]

Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John ALSO taught his disciples

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

The "WHEN ye pray,say, Our Father… " clause doesn’t leave room for Mary.

Jesus taught to direct all prayers to the Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

According to John 14:13… The Father is glorified when we pray to the Father in Jesus name. This leaves no room for any prayers directed to anyone else.

So you have never prayed to God to help a friend in need? Or prayed in a group?

 

[Good_Fella]

Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John ALSO taught his disciples

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

The "WHEN ye pray,say, Our Father… " clause doesn’t leave room for Mary.

Jesus taught to direct all prayers to the Father.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

According to John 14:13… The Father is glorified when we pray to the Father in Jesus name. This leaves no room for any prayers directed to anyone else.

When Catholics recite the Rosary, they are aware that the many signal graces they receive through it originate from the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit by Mary’s prayerful intercession in heaven. We are confident that we receive these many graces since what we ask for is directed to the Father in our Lord’s name. To ask for anything in Jesus’ name means asking for something that the Father wills for us: Humilty, Obedience, Charity, Poverty of Spirit, Self-Sacrifice, Chastity, Apostolic Zeal, Spirit of Repentance, Conversion, Mortification, Moral Courage, Patience, Fortitude, Love of God, Final Perseverance, Faith, Hope, Wisdom, Understanding, Prudence, a Holy Death, and the Grace of Eternal Life.

The Father is glorified when we ask him to give the many graces and blessings he has benevolently offered us out of love and for our salvation. It makes no difference whether we pray directly to him on our own or indirectly through the mediation of a holy person. For when two or three are gathered in our Lord’s name Jesus is in our midst. Asking another person to pray to the Father for us amounts to praying to the Father together with that other person in our Lord’s name. Both Jesus and Paul exhort us to pray for one another, for our intercessory prayers please God who desires that everyone be saved (cf. Mt 5:44-45; 1 Tim 2:1-4). Certainly our Lord would not have given us this exhortation if he required each individual to pray only directly to the Father on his own in order to be heard. The Father hears us and knows our needs even beforehand when we ask another person to pray for us and so with us.

You are mistaken if you think Catholics believe they receive divine grace directly from Mary. She herself was in need of God’s grace (cf. Lk 1:28). But since Mary is pre-eminent in the order of grace among all the saints in heaven and the faithful on earth, we Catholics are confident in the powerful intercessory influence she has before God (cf. Jn 2:5; Lk 1:43-44; Jas 5:16). Through her prayers and those of the saints who have gone on before us we can recieve from God the helping graces we need in our pilgrimage of faith on earth. Indeed, Paul tells us that we are “co-workers with God”, having been invited by the Lord to accept his grace in participating with him in his work of salvation (cf. 1 Cor 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1; Jn 5:15). Yet no human creature is nearer to God and more influential than Mary is, for she is the Mother of our Lord and has already received her glorious crown in heaven, where she exists body and soul enthroned next to her divine Son (Rev 12:1; 1 Kgs 2:19-20; Ps 45:9; Rev 2:10; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Cor 15:22-23; 1 Jn 3:2; Mt 18:10).

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim, exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.”
John of Damascene, ‘Homily on the Nativity, 9’

“Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul’s affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin; let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favour those who have received deliverance.”
Ambrose Autpert, ‘Assumption of the Virgin’

“Let us approach with confident spirit the throne of the High Priest, where he is our victim, priest, advocate, and judge.”
Radbert Paschasius, ‘On the Assumption’

PAX :harp:

 

[hays1122]

As a non Catholic I like the prayers used in the Rosary except for the part asking Mary to forgive our sins.
I don’t feel comfortable asking Mary to “forgive us our sins now and at the hour of our death.”
Mostly because I don’t see any place in the bible where anyone said that prayer.
Luke 2:28 “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”
Luke 2:30"And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God."
When she visited Elizabeth:
Luke 2:42-44"And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy."
I have heard Father Corapi use these verses to explain that the Hail Mary said in the rosary is biblical. Yes the angel Gabriel did say,Hail Mary full of grace.And Elizabeth did say,blessed is the fruit of they womb.
The problem was that Father Corapi skipped over the “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”
He went on and on about those verses and that the Rosary and the words used in the Rosary are biblical yet didn’t explain where it’s biblical to say"pray for us sinners now and at the our of our death."
I was very disappointed in him for not at least saying something about the rest of that prayer. It seems to me that he left that part out because he knows it’s not biblical. If he’s going to talk about how protestants don’t understand that the Rosary is biblical,he should cover all the Rosary. Not just the biblical parts.
I listen to Mother Angelica and the sisters say the Rosary. I like repeating those prayers,but when they get to the “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”,
I say,
“Lord Jesus forgive us our sins now and at the our of our death.”
There is so much about the way the Catholic church does things that I like. I listen to Father Corapi,Bishop Fulton Sheen,Catholic answers live,and sometimes I watch the mass on EWTN.
I am really enjoying this site too because I’ve learned so much.
So don’t get me wrong. I’m not putting your religion down at all.
I can’t help it that I was raised Baptist. And not allowed to have anything to do with any other religion and most especially the Catholic church. There is so much I still have to learn.
I am reading all I can. I’ve been reading the catechism of the Catholic Church word for word. And reading Church history online.
Right now I’m studying about Martin Luther. I am amazed at the different side of his story I am now learning. I grew up hearing stories about him as if he was some hero. I never heard anything negative about him. Interesting reading the Catholic view point.
I just have to pray that the Lord will keep me close to him.
It’s so easy to get confused and maybe even wonder if there is any real truth to be found.
I keep telling myself,Jesus is real,He is Lord and His word is found in the Holy scriptures.

 

[Good_Fella]

As a non Catholic I like the prayers used in the Rosary except for the part asking Mary to forgive our sins. I don’t feel comfortable asking Mary to “forgive us our sins now and at the hour of our death.”

Actually the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer goes like this:

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

:tiphat:

 

[Good_Fella]

The problem was that Father Corapi skipped over the “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”
He went on and on about those verses and that the Rosary and the words used in the Rosary are biblical yet didn’t explain where it’s biblical to say"pray for us sinners now and at the our of our death."

I like repeating those prayers,but when they get to the “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”,
I say,“Lord Jesus forgive us our sins now and at the our of our death.”

There is so much about the way the Catholic church does things that I like.

Above in this thread I have quoted the scriptures to show that God has revealed to us his will that we Christians pray (intercede) for each other and for every human being on earth who needs our prayers notwithstanding their religious persuasion or disbelief. Allow me to present once more two biblical passages that encourage us to pray for other people. Bear in mind our Lord has also provided an incentive for us to ask others to pray for us, since “the prayers of a righteous person avails much” (cf. Jas 5:16; Prov 15: 8, 29).

“But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father.”
Matthew 5, 44-45

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone.This is good and pleasing to God our saviour who wills everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4.

With regard to the authority to forgive sins:

“Give us today our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors.”
Matthew 6, 11-12

“Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
John 20, 23

When we pray for those who persecute us, not only are we asking God to grant them the grace of conversion, but we are asking God to forgive them, since we have forgiven our enemies from the heart. Jesus tells us that whatever we ask for in his name will be given us (cf. Mk 11:24), so I believe our Lord did not hold the sin of Stephen’s executioners against them. I personally believe that the martyr’s prayer brought about Paul’s conversion by God’s grace. And even if the others hadn’t repented of their offence, I still believe God would not hold this particular sin against them in answer to Stephen’s virtuous prayer in Jesus’ name. Those who may later have converted to Christianity would have repented along with Paul for their deadly persecutions. God is prepared to forgive anyone who willingly accepts his grace and repents for his tresspasses against Him and our neighbour - including the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell to his knees and cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them”; and when he said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 7, 59-60

When you substitute the petition “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners…” for “Lord, Jesus, forgive us our sins…” you are substituting Mary for yourself as a factual human mediator. Like Mary you are asking our Lord to give us the graces necessary for our salvation. Salvation can only be obtained through the forgiveness of sins, and we need all the graces we can get in order to persevere in faith until the end. I would appreciate your prayers for me with gratitude, but to be honest with you, I’d feel more secure knowing that it’s Mary who is praying for me on account of her merits and pre-eminent position with God. Now if you recite the Hail Mary the way faithful Catholics do, I’ll feel even more secure knowing that we are both praying together with Mary to her divine Son, not only me and the other hundreds of million people.

I’m sure you’d be interested to know that in her third apparition to the three shepherd children at the Cova da Ira our Blessed Mother asked us to add this prayer after each decade of the Rosary:

“O, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, and save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of your mercy.”

And she also said:

“Pray, pray a great deal and make sacrifices for sinners. So many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them.”
Our Lady of Fatima, 13 July 1917

Now that 's very Pauline of Mary ! [Col 1:24]

I hope there are more things you like about Catholicism.

PAX :harp:

 

[Non_Serviam]

I can understand this for those who have been separated from the Apostolic Tradition, and fallen into the error of SolaScriptura. How could such a person know what the Apostolic practices are?

One could review their writings for a start, and the historical writings that are concerned with them. I am not familiar with any text that is relatively current to the Apostles that describes them as participating in or advocating praying to dead saints. (I’d be interested in reading any you might know of, if they’re within 150-200 yrs of the Apostles’ lifetime.)

Oh, I don’t know! It is amazing what God empowers the saints to do! They pray for us in heaven, awaiting The Day.

I wasn’t debating whether or not the saints are engaged in prayer-Revelation clearly identifies the elders engaged in worship in heaven. The crux of my dispute is whether there is any evidence the Apostles engaged in or taught the practice of praying to dead saints.

Those who have died in Christ has “ceased from their labors”.

So then why do Catholics ask saints to heal their throats, protect their boats and sell their houses? I think you are making my point rather than refuting it.

There is a definite change in “status” (for lack of a better word at the moment) between saints living on earth (using the term saint in its biblical sense) and those who have died. Just as we have no call on them to preach, teach or baptize, we have no call on them to intercede for us-their time of labour is over. That’s why we see no one making appeals to the newly martyred Stephen in the New Testament writings.

Yes, I agree. I prefer the Liturgy of the Hours to the Rosary.

There is some very inspirational material in the LotH, even if I don’t feel comfortable with all of it.