Why Would A Catholic Vote For A ProChoice Canidate?

[Pong]

So, because there are many injustices in the world we should stop fighting to end ANY of them? That type of thinking would have made it impossible to end slavery in America.

That is not what I said. I said that there are many factors to be considered when voting in officials. Just because abortion isn’t my number one concern doesn’t mean it can’t be yours. And vice versa. That is certainly not the same thing as ignoring all of the issues in the world, it just isn’t focusing on a single one.

 

[BamaRider]

Abortion is bad- point taken. Guess what? War is bad, starvation is bad, STD’s are bad, poverty is bad. These are all factors.

This is where we drift apart. In your view the current crop of repubs want to starve people, start wars, promote wanton sex, and keep people in poverty. The president gets up in the morning, and “Gee, I wonder which policy I can put forth today, that will keep another 5 million in poverty.” When have you heard a repub such a thing? Granted each party has different ideas to correct those things, but both sides WANT the samething. I’m all for putting the cures in the arena of ideas, and battle it out.

But on the other hand, the 2 front runners on the Dem have said in plain speech (one of the few things no double talk) that (1) abortion is ok (2) a woman has the right to unfettered, on demand abortion, no questions asked (3) they will place judges and in courts to keep Roe v Wade.

I’ll let THIS statement speak for itself-

And quite frankly I’d rather be** comfortable with my own conscience **than with a bunch of annonymous people on a message board.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

the country is also impoverished and our nearly-defenseless allies betrayed, while our national honor is tracked through the mud."

That sounds like the result of the Bush administration.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

This is where we drift apart. In your view the current crop of repubs want to starve people, start wars, promote wanton sex, and keep people in poverty. The president gets up in the morning, and “Gee, I wonder which policy I can put forth today, that will keep another 5 million in poverty.”

Gee, I wonder where you got that talking point…perhaps on the EIB? Sounds exactly like something Limbaugh would say…to the syllable.

Of course, it’s not what happens. It’s more like, “what can I do to help corporations and rich people get more powerful and rich?” The poor and middle class don’t even enter their minds, except, perhaps, as the rabble and lowborn.

 

[SoCalRC]

.
Even when abortion was illegal, I am pretty certain that there weren’t any cases of the women themselves going to jail. It was the doctors who got in trouble. I think that the same would be true today.

Even doctors were rarely prosecuted, and very little jail time was doled out. Remember, the ‘abortionist’ was often the town’s sole medical doctor.

.
I know of many people who have adopted babies. My hubby and I have talked about adopting a special needs child if he gets a decent job when he retires from the military.

My siblings have all adopted (all inter-racial and/or disabled). And my wife and I had planned on adopting until we had our youngest child, who is severely disabled.

If you have such a call, I can say that it is a tremendously rewarding experience. However, I would strongly warn you not to make the committment lightly. Trying to explain the realities of special needs parenting to other parents is like those parents trying to explain the realities of parenting a typically developing child to DINKs (dual income, no kids).

Today there is more acceptance and more resources. When our son was born, institutionalization was the norm and there was tremendous resistance and stigma against home care. But even so, the responsibilities can still be daunting. The divorce rate among birth parents of disabled children is staggering, some estimates put it well over 90%.

So, again, if you feel a call, I can assure you that it can be a tremendously rewarding experience, but it is also an extremely challenging one. If you find that you are gettin quite serious, I would suggest joining a support group and getting to know the parents and children in advance. It is not the same as having the responsibility 24/7, but it will give you a much better idea of what to expect.

Peace

 

[BamaRider]

Of course, it’s not what happens. It’s more like, “what can I do to help corporations and rich people get more powerful and rich?” The poor and middle class don’t even enter their minds, except, perhaps, as the rabble and lowborn.

Why do you dislike wealthy people? Does their wealth building rob *you *of the piece of the pie? I’m about as middle class as they come, but I don’t feel left out.

What can the govt do to life me up outta the middle class to the big money?? Mostly stay outta my way!

 

[SoCalRC]

This is where we drift apart. In your view the current crop of repubs want to starve people, start wars, promote wanton sex, and keep people in poverty. The president gets up in the morning, and “Gee, I wonder which policy I can put forth today, that will keep another 5 million in poverty.”

Well, I think that it is undisputable fact that a goodly chunk of the current GOP leadership in the administrative branch most assuredly wanted to start a war. Look at the signatories here:

newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

PNAC has been advocating invading Iraq for US strategic interests since 1997. A number of these signatories have been arguing for permanent occupation in Iraq even longer.

But I don’t think their motives were simple. I think that they may have believed some of their arguments about it truly being in the US’s strategic self interest. I also think that Frances Fukuyama, a mission statement signatory who has since renounced PNACs type of neoconservatism as another failed form of “Leninism”, was being truthful when he recently told an interviewer that a lot of the participants were concerned with issues of self interest - what such an occupation would do for my massive oil company stock options, what an external threat would do for the political prospects of my own party, etc…

It is important to keep in mind that political parties are a coalition of convenience. Not everyone is in complete agreement on principles and priorities. Politicians will always talk as if every faction’s interests are their own personal cause, but their actions will give a better idea of what they value.

Look at it this way, we have a White House that talks about Islamic-fascism, conservative Christian values, and being business friendly. The hijackers on 9/11 were overwhelmingly Saudi, but nonetheless, whe will see the president walking hand in hand with visiting members of the House of Saud, deferring to Saudi customs on honor and respect on US soil. When the king rumbles, the VP drops everything and flies to the middle east to pay a visit.

But neither the president nor the veep will attend funerals of US military personal killed in Afghanistan or Iraq. Nor will either attend a March for Life (strictly phone in). Attending, of course, is our custom for honor and respect.

We could also look at the priorities taken up by the last congress, near the end of its term when it was clear that the GOP was loosing control of both chambers. Tax breaks and corporate welfare passed in an amazing flury. But mandatory bills, the people’s business, were left unfinished. Likewise, a number of bills important to social conservatives were simply tabled.

As Jesus told us, when you serve multiple masters, you are going to show, by your actions, which one you love more.

 

[SoCalRC]

Why do you dislike wealthy people? Does their wealth building rob *you *of the piece of the pie? I’m about as middle class as they come, but I don’t feel left out.

Well, I must confess that I am in the top 2% of earners. I certainly have no hate for myself, nor my peers. But weath building, un-restrained by governance for the common good does, most assuredly rob others of a piece of the pie.

In many big ways, like having virtual personhood for corporations, but paying much lower tax rates (a competitive advantage), or tax incentives for outsourcing jobs oversees. But also in many systemic ways we don’t think about.

The Federal Reserve principally serves broader business interests. When it raises interest rates to ‘cool’ the economy, it artifically keeps unemployment higher. That is, some people are denied jobs for the greater common good. Similiarly, now that an unregulated lending industry has sucked the capitol market dry of real liquidity, the fed is forced to cut interest rates to try to heat up the economy. But, we already have inflation. Cutting rates will artificially increase inflation. This means that people will have less money to invest in their children’s education, generational assets, or just simple savings. Again, some people take it on the chin for the greater good.

One of the neatest tricks that the GOP has pulled in the 20th century is to get large chunks of people to vote against their own financial self interest. This is principally by virtue of tapping strong emotions. LBJ underestimated when he said that passing the Civil Rights Act would make the south Republican for a generation. Racism is viseral, and even Reagan’s speech writer Pat Buchanan has conceded that they specifically pandered to it (Reagan announced his candidacy for president by going to the south and giving a speech on ‘states rights’).

Similiarly, issues like homosexuality and abortion are very emotionally intense for many people. So, even if Bush’s $270B were distributed so that $90B when to folks in my income bracket, $90B went to the 90th to 98th percentile, and the last $90B distributed to everyone else (say 99%+ of the total population) many voters express views like yourself, self interest, even seemingly common national interest, can all take a back seat to a particular issue.

The big question is, how to deal with success? Once you have control of the WH, congress, and a majority of judical appointments, it is hard to continue to blame the other side for a lack of progress on everyone’s specific priorities. Real priorities get action, lip service priorities really don’t. That puts it back on the ‘believers’ - are they committed to their principles, or the party.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Why do you dislike wealthy people? Does their wealth building rob *you *of the piece of the pie? I’m about as middle class as they come, but I don’t feel left out.

Ah, you’re one of those eeeeevil, self-sufficient, self-supporting people.

Don’t you realize you’re depriving hard-working bureaucrats of a job taking care of you?

What can the govt do to life me up outta the middle class to the big money?? Mostly stay outta my way!

As Pogo Possum said, “We have met the enemy and he is us.” Most specifically vast counter-productive government programs.

Let the government produce a working school system, where every child is brought to full potential, and where our high school graduates are the envy of the world. That will do more for us than all the convoluted “programs” ever passed into law.

 

[wow]

Let the government produce a working school system, where every child is brought to full potential, and where our high school graduates are the envy of the world. That will do more for us than all the convoluted “programs” ever passed into law.

I believe it’s called, No Child Left Behind.

 

[SoCalRC]

Let the government produce a working school system, where every child is brought to full potential, and where our high school graduates are the envy of the world. That will do more for us than all the convoluted “programs” ever passed into law.

You are quite right - a massive program like that would have a high probability of tangible payoff. We tried it after WW-II, giving virtually every serviceman a 4 year degree, and it built up a middle class.

Similiarly, IDEA tremendously improved the quality of living for a severely underserved segment of the population - all while saving society money (because of the funding structure, IDEA is a financial burden on individual school districts, but on a broader scale, the GAO calculates that it saves society about 10K per year, per child).

Land grants are another example of a massive, middle class building program paying off in spades.

But it still is no easy task. The public education system we have now is one of the most ambitious in the world, and there is already a strong movement to wholly gut it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are quite right - a massive program like that would have a high probability of tangible payoff. We tried it after WW-II, giving virtually every serviceman a 4 year degree, and it built up a middle class.

Similiarly, IDEA tremendously improved the quality of living for a severely underserved segment of the population - all while saving society money (because of the funding structure, IDEA is a financial burden on individual school districts, but on a broader scale, the GAO calculates that it saves society about 10K per year, per child).

Land grants are another example of a massive, middle class building program paying off in spades.

But it still is no easy task. The public education system we have now is one of the most ambitious in the world, and there is already a strong movement to wholly gut it.

With a high school dropout rate of around 29%, plus an unknown number of children who graduate unable to read and write, it’s clear it already has been gutted.

The government has failed in one of its most basic duties.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Why do you dislike wealthy people? Does their wealth building rob *you *of the piece of the pie?

When the system is designed to move money from the middle class and poor to the rich, absolutely.

I’m about as middle class as they come, but I don’t feel left out.

Feelings are irrelevant.

What can the govt do to life me up outta the middle class to the big money?? Mostly stay outta my way!

Indeed? Have you ever read this?

A Day in the Life of Joe Republican

A story floating around the internet…

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.
All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer’s medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers’ Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans.

The house didn’t have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn’t mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: “We don’t need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I’m a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Indeed? Have you ever read this?

A Day in the Life of Joe Republican

A story floating around the internet…

I’ll make a note to read it – right after I finish Mein Kampf.

This illustrates you whole outlook – instead of looking deeply into problems and solutions, you accept at face value a biased, fictional story, as if it were the Gospel.

 

[iamrefreshed]

That sounds like the result of the Bush administration.

If you wonder why no one takes your poll seriously and see you as being biased just re-read your statement above.

What would make you believe someone would have a serious discussion with you concerning their willingness to cross party lines to vote what they think is morally correct when you come across so biased?

Really, sugar works better than vinegar.

 

[iamrefreshed]

A Day in the Life of Joe Republican

A story floating around the internet…

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.
All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer’s medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers’ Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans.

The house didn’t have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn’t mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: “We don’t need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I’m a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have.”

And the 'liberal commie, wine drinking, cheese eating, tree hugger can do all those thing because Joe enlisted in the military and defended this country.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you wonder why no one takes your poll seriously and see you as being biased just re-read your statement above.

What would make you believe someone would have a serious discussion with you concerning their willingness to cross party lines to vote what they think is morally correct when you come across so biased?

Really, sugar works better than vinegar.

Methinks we should take up a collection and buy this lad some antacid tablets.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I’ll make a note to read it – right after I finish Mein Kampf.

This illustrates you whole outlook – instead of looking deeply into problems and solutions, you accept at face value a biased, fictional story, as if it were the Gospel.

The thing is, I have looked deeper into a lot of these issues. I used to be a Dittohead, too. Once I started delving into what happens in the real world and not in the theoretical world that extremists on both sides of the spectrum live in, I reached a different conclusion than you have. That’s all good and well. It doesn’t mean you have to be condescending and nasty about it.

Am I disgusted by what I hear from FoxNoise and Limbaugh? Absolutely? Both of these outlets either claim to (or have contributors that claim to) speak for “conservatism,” the ideology of the Republican party. If I am saying things that you don’t think are Republican, then perhaps the spokespersons need to change their rhetoric…and maybe work to have the results OF this ideology change. What I’ve been seeing over the past year or so isn’t pretty.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

If you wonder why no one takes your poll seriously and see you as being biased just re-read your statement above.

What would make you believe someone would have a serious discussion with you concerning their willingness to cross party lines to vote what they think is morally correct when you come across so biased?

Really, sugar works better than vinegar.

The economy is tanking right now…after most of Bush’s policy choices have been enacted. What are we to conclude? That it’s Clinton’s fault?

And am I biased? Absolutely. I used to be a dittohead and am totally appalled at what it resulted in. I don’t deny it. At least I’m honest about that.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I used to be a Dittohead, too.

It doesn’t mean you have to be condescending and nasty about it.

Aren’t you the one always introducing the pot and kettle?