W
wow
Guest
Caution, slow down trouble ahead.
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Dale_M
Guest
The seamless garment view doesnât say that the death penalty and abortion are equal. The sheer number of abortions relative to the number of executions supports the idea that abortion is the weightier issue.
What the seamless garment idea does say is that abortion and the death penalty are related. Humans needlessly killing other humans is immoral.
I donât see any dishonesty in that.
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mikew262
Guest
You talking about me or the person I responded too?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
The person to whom you responded, of course.
It seems someone pointed out that government single payer health care would be a monopsony. He thought that was a good word, so he said that Wal-Mart is a monopsony.
So people had to explain to him what a monopsony is, and he defended himself by saying he really didnât know anything about economics.
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SoCalRC
Guest
Perhaps you should get more up to date. Tax cuts donât generate additional revenue - or so says the GAO and about 30 academic studies. The fact that the Bush administration has roughly doubled our national debt - 9 trillion, should be simple enough math for anyone.
Also, it is now widely accepted that consumers principally drive the economy, not corproations. That is why Bushâs own Fed Chairman recommended targetting middle/lower income Americans in his testimony before Congress just a week ago. He also refused to support extending Bushâs weath waited tax cuts as a viable economic stimulus when questioned.
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SoCalRC
Guest
Non negoiable means non-negotiable. If you wonât stand firm on the one aspect of âright to lifeâ that seems to motivate you, what does that say about your own Christian concience?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
So you would vote for the one who would allow it in all instances â and pay for it with taxpayer money?
What does that say about your own Christian concience?
It is posts like the one quoted here that keep me asking the same question: Given two candidates, one of whom supports the pro-life position (albeit imperfectly) and one who supports the pro-choice position, can a Catholic morally vote for the latter?
Can you give me a yes or no answer?
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BamaRider
Guest
SolCal said-
I genuinely believe you think tax cuts are bad, the president last week said the IRS takes checks and money orders, make a donation if it makes ya feel better. The dems are so out of whack with what makes this country work. If the Bush tax cuts are not extended Iâm one of those âwell off Americansâ that will be looking at a 800-1000 dollar a year jack in my taxes. Iâm a retired firefighter, my wife is a clerk, (but makes good money cos sheâs been doin it 25 years!) no dependents (my son is grown) we do ok, and life is good, but the dems think Iâm rich??? I donât understand why someone, working down at the chicken factory, would take pleasure at seeing my taxes jacked up???
If the tax cuts are not extended 116 million Americans will see a tax increase.
A whole another topic, but you brought it up.
Dang does this mean youâre gonna be returning your upcoming âeconomic stimulus checkâ to the govt? I mean, you donât like tax cuts, counter productive, waste of time etc, so be consistent when they try to depoist that money in your account, tell them you donât want it.
I genuinely believe you think tax cuts are bad, the president last week said the IRS takes checks and money orders, make a donation if it makes ya feel better. The dems are so out of whack with what makes this country work. If the Bush tax cuts are not extended Iâm one of those âwell off Americansâ that will be looking at a 800-1000 dollar a year jack in my taxes. Iâm a retired firefighter, my wife is a clerk, (but makes good money cos sheâs been doin it 25 years!) no dependents (my son is grown) we do ok, and life is good, but the dems think Iâm rich??? I donât understand why someone, working down at the chicken factory, would take pleasure at seeing my taxes jacked up???
If the tax cuts are not extended 116 million Americans will see a tax increase.
A whole another topic, but you brought it up.
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boppaid
Guest
Just curious: how many babies were aborted while GWB was in office? How many people killed in War?
Now, how many babies were aborted while Clinton was in office? How many people killed in War?
Are the numbers THAT different? And, every year, there are fewer and fewer abortions because people are becoming more educated. Just thinkâŠif our economy would turn around, how few abortions there would be at this rate!
Now, how many babies were aborted while Clinton was in office? How many people killed in War?
Are the numbers THAT different? And, every year, there are fewer and fewer abortions because people are becoming more educated. Just thinkâŠif our economy would turn around, how few abortions there would be at this rate!
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SoCalRC
Guest
No, I will not be voting for a pro-choice candidate. However, I do not constrain myself to the idolatry of putting more faith in earthly political constructs than God.
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SoCalRC
Guest
I wonât get one, I earn too much. Try to listen to what I say - I donât like deficit spending. It is like raping oneâs own grandchildren unless the spending if for infrastructure they will benefit from.
Massive tax cuts to the wealthy donât generate additional revenue, they just create massive deficits. Giving them in a time of war goes beyond stupid, it is bordering on treason. If there is a segment of America that is not willing to pay its fair share of natinoal defense, they are welcome to move elsewhere (IE, live where they are moving their money and the jobs it creates).
If you have 9 trillion in debt and structural deficits, youâve either got to stop spending or pay more in taxes. Those of us receiving all the huge tax breaks (as in me, not really most the people here) are also getting most the federal subidies and we are reaping the benefits of record profits.
I think we can pay our fair share vs. seeing still more children live in poverty (poverty, like our deficits, have also soared under current policy). If this makes me a âtraitor to my classâ, so be it, Iâm first and foremost a Christian.
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SoCalRC
Guest
Actually, the abortion rate declined more sharply under Clinton. But what is most disturbing about 4,000 vs. 1,000,000 comparisons is how much we have to foresake Catholic faith to make them. First of all, we know that the Iraq war has killed at least 155,000 Iraqis as a direct result of violence, and several hundred thousand more indirectly. We also know that it has created millions of refugees, disproportionately Christian.
Just using the number 4,000 implies devaluing the value of human life. Is a life worth less because it is not in a US uniform? Is that what Rome teaches? Is a fellow Christian child starving to death, or dying for lack of basic potable water and simple medications any less valuable than a fertized zygote? Is that what Rome teaches.
When you start making such comparisons, you may be âanti-abortionâ, but you are no longer pro-life in a Catholic sense. We value life from conception to natural death. Not only in special states and in volume.
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dmelosi
Guest
You forget the 100,000âs of thousands that Sadaam was directly involved in killing. Where would that have stopped. Your equation on the value of human life seems to forget this.
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BamaRider
Guest
In light of the statement in bold print, which I assume YOU believe, let us go to here:
In all this, still didnât answer the question. Do you think your current tax situation is (a) not paying enough (b) too much (c) just right?
If A, send a check to the IRS
If B, vote republican
If C, be sure to return any refunds or rebates you receive in 2008.
It ainât complicated, but you gotta be consistent.
Since Johnson instiuted the âGreat Societyâ * dollars has been spent on social programs. And where are we today 50 years later? Nothing has change, but the cry is the same, âthrow more money at itâ it has been a dismal failure, because most of this stuff doesnât empower anybody to take control of their lives SoCal.*
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BarbG
Guest
I donât like to antagonize any Democrats in this Forum, but a couple of weeks ago I took part in the Walk for Life here in San Francisco. There were THOUSANDS participating, but in reading our local newspaper and seeing the picture of the Walk in the âChronicleâ, youâd think there were not too many. Also I watched on EWTN the March for Life in Washington, D.C. and every politician that spoke at the microphone was REPUBLICAN!!! I truly canât understand why the Democrats seem to be pro-choice â can anyone give me a reason?
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Dale_M
Guest
I canât believe I read this whole thing. :hypno:
The original question was: Why Would A Catholic Vote For A ProChoice Canidate?
My answer would be: If the office they sought would not involve them in decisions which would reduce the rate of abortions, such as the County Board of Supervisors or the state legislature,. But they would also need to have strong positions on the other life issues.
Vern has argued that politicians do rise through the ranks, and those holding minor offices may eventually run for major offices. He points out the need to groom pro-life candidates so that they can reach a position of influence.
I think Vernâs contention is valid, and is well worth considering when evaluating candidates. But this evaluation would also include looking at the age, resumĂ© and ambitions of those seeking lesser positions.
In other words, I think it is possible to vote for a pro-choice candidate who was seeking local or state office, but the decision would be complex. For President or U.S. Congress, I think abortion is the dominant issue.
jwashu:
The original question was: Why Would A Catholic Vote For A ProChoice Canidate?
My answer would be: If the office they sought would not involve them in decisions which would reduce the rate of abortions, such as the County Board of Supervisors or the state legislature,. But they would also need to have strong positions on the other life issues.
Vern has argued that politicians do rise through the ranks, and those holding minor offices may eventually run for major offices. He points out the need to groom pro-life candidates so that they can reach a position of influence.
I think Vernâs contention is valid, and is well worth considering when evaluating candidates. But this evaluation would also include looking at the age, resumĂ© and ambitions of those seeking lesser positions.
In other words, I think it is possible to vote for a pro-choice candidate who was seeking local or state office, but the decision would be complex. For President or U.S. Congress, I think abortion is the dominant issue.
Joe, this is a very important point. Thank you (and Vinessa) for making clear the need to not just be anti-abortion but truly pro-life. Life doesnât end at birth.
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BamaRider
Guest
Barb sez-
Fair question, any of the announced pro choice voting candidate Catholics care to answer the ladieâs question?
And I say-
Fair question, any of the announced pro choice voting candidate Catholics care to answer the ladieâs question?
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Translation: Vote Republican ONLY or you are a ghoulish baby killing monster.
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dmelosi
Guest
The translation is to NOT vote for the party that clearly states in its party platform that there will be no restrictions on abortion.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Iâm going to guess that youâre talking about yours truly. I defy you to post a link to where I said this or apologize.
Hint: I said that my understanding of a monospony is that any major corporation could be a monopsony, even Disney. Note that Wal-Mart is nowhere to be seen in my statement.
This is intellectually dishonest. I said my education about economics was not much more than the high school level. That not âreally not knowing anything about economics.â I means I donât know as much as someone who has made it their field of study. I choose to be an Engineer and am studying discipline. Engineering is a pretty exact science. Economics is more of an art as the factors involved constantly change and are not subject to exacting specifications.So people had to explain to him what a monopsony is, and he defended himself by saying he really didnât know anything about economics.
I do know thisâŠthere are differences of opinion even among economists. There are supply-siders (which is the altar to mammon at which Republicans tend to worship) and there are demand-siders (usually knowns as Keneysians, which is that altar to mammon at which Democrats tend to worship Mammon). There are also people who adhere to an economic model called Distributionism, which is the model Catholics, including myself, who arenât beholdened to Republicanism tend to adhere to.
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