Why Would A Catholic Vote For A ProChoice Canidate?

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t need to provide you with an example. You could just as easily make your arguments without referencing the Shoah.

I didn’t refer to the Shoah. I referred to the Holocaust, where 3,000,000 Catholics died along with about 9,000,000 others.

Instead you take a tactic that demeans the genocide of my people. That is how I and many other’s preceive it.

Instead you take a tactic that demeans the genocide of my people. That is how I and many others preceive it.

 

[Valke2]

I am not trying to be argumentative but could it not be said your taking offense demeans all those aborted innocents?

I think that other posters have addressed that issue better than I can on this thread. (See Post #317). I don’t see how setting forth arguments against abortion without bringing the holocaust into it demeans any of the pro-life beliefs.

 

[fix]

I think that other posters have addressed that issue better than I can on this thread. (See Post #317).

The amount of destruction of innocent life must be a significant factor unless we are hard hearted.

I don’t see how setting forth arguments against abortion without bringing the holocaust into it demeans any of the pro-life beliefs.

But, that was not my point in my post to you. I was asking why it is not demeaning to all the innocent children aborted when folks think they should be offended by the analogy used.

 

[dmelosi]

I think that other posters have addressed that issue better than I can on this thread. (See Post #317). I don’t see how setting forth arguments against abortion without bringing the holocaust into it demeans any of the pro-life beliefs.

Here is how I see the comparisons.

HOLOCAUST
Jewish people never want the horrible details to diminish, so no one forgets this horrible massacre. Everyone I personally know agrees with this.

There are many anti-jewish groups out there that want others to believe it never happened.

The holocaust was muder of a mass amount of people.

ABORTION
Pro-lifers do not want the fact that abortion is murder to diminish. This is an uphill battle as so many say it is a choice and not murder. I would say that most people think of it as a choice or their would be a huge outcry by the majority.

Look how many are out there saying it is a choice, nothing more.

There have been over 40,000,000 legalized murders.

 

[Valke2]

The amount of destruction of innocent life must be a significant factor unless we are hard hearted.

But, that was not my point in my post to you. I was asking why it is not demeaning to all the innocent children aborted when folks think they should be offended by the analogy used.

Because the holocaust had nothing to do with abortion and and I’m not sure how objecting to the analogy can rationally be seen as demeaning to aborted children. For starters, there are few parents who are lamenting the abortion of their children, as opposed to survivors of the Shoah/Holocaust.

 

[Valke2]

Here is how I see the comparisons.

HOLOCAUST
Jewish people never want the horrible details to diminish, so no one forgets this horrible massacre. Everyone I personally know agrees with this.

There are many anti-jewish groups out there that want others to believe it never happened.

The holocaust was muder of a mass amount of people.

ABORTION
Pro-lifers do not want the fact that abortion is murder to diminish. This is an uphill battle as so many say it is a choice and not murder. I would say that most people think of it as a choice or their would be a huge outcry by the majority.

Look how many are out there saying it is a choice, nothing more.

There have been over 40,000,000 legalized murders.

I would agree with your reasoning. My problem with identifying abortions with the holocaust is that it almost if not always leads to saying something like “only 12 million died in the Holocaust, 40,000,000 have died in abortions”.

This is why such an analogy is demeaning to the loss of life in the Holocaust and objecting to the analogy is not demeaning to the loss of life through abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Because the holocaust had nothing to do with abortion

It had to do with killing a selected classes of people in wholesale numbers. It had to do with dehumanizing the victims. It had to do with people specializing in mass killings. It even included “medical experiments” with the victims.

and and I’m not sure how objecting to the analogy can rationally be seen as demeaning to aborted children. For starters, there are few parents who are lamenting the abortion of their children, as opposed to survivors of the Shoah/Holocaust.

The only reason to not use the Holocaust is that the Nazi Holocaust was too small – only 12 million people were killed, as opposed to about 4 times as many in the Abortion Holocaust.

 

[Valke2]

It had to do with killing a selected classes of people in wholesale numbers. It had to do with dehumanizing the victims. It had to do with people specializing in mass killings. It even included “medical experiments” with the victims.

The only reason to not use the Holocaust is that the Nazi Holocaust was too small – only 12 million people were killed, as opposed to about 4 times as many in the Abortion Holocaust.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[fix]

I don’t know, but I always find it disturbing. The comparison itself devalues human life. Once attrocities reach a scope beyond true human comprehension, simple arithmetic proves nothing besides a lack of understanding of the tragic loss of each individual human life. How can we claim to understand that we are each a unique creation of God, who can and does love us infinitely, if we insist on making inane arguments like ‘killing 1,000,000 x infinity for 30 years is worse than the lose of 45,000,000 x infinity over 4 years’ (global WW-II related losses)?

What I find disturbing is the idea we no longer have moral perspective and argue over analogies. The comaprsion devalues life? The picking apart of the analogy is the probelm, not the analogy itself.

 

[dmelosi]

I would agree with your reasoning. My problem with identifying abortions with the holocaust is that it almost if not always leads to saying something like “only 12 million died in the Holocaust, 40,000,000 have died in abortions”.

This is why such an analogy is demeaning to the loss of life in the Holocaust and objecting to the analogy is not demeaning to the loss of life through abortion.

I do agree that using the word only is not a good way to compare the 2. Both are horrific.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thank you for proving my point.

Whatever it was.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What I find disturbing is the idea we no longer have moral perspective and argue over analogies. The comaprsion devalues life? The picking apart of the analogy is the probelm, not the analogy itself.

It’s part of a strategy to make the pro-choice movement seem “inappropriate” – the ultimate sin in today’s society.

Note the taint of anti-Semitism that one poster tried to attach to the use of the Holocaust in this regard.

 

[fix]

It’s part of a strategy to make the pro-choice movement seem “inappropriate” – the ultimate sin in today’s society.

Yep, well said. Why have we come to a point where we cannot grasp that the numbers of abortions in this country is beyond comprehension? The numbers do help us understand the great magnitude of the problem. This is not the error of proportionalism but reveals how serious the probelm has become.

Note the taint of anti-Semitism that one poster tried to attach to the use of the Holocaust in this regard.

I try to see the point of the poster’s concern, but I see the analogy as showing both to be a horror.

 

[StratusRose]

I haven’t read all the responses on this thread, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone else has already said.

IMHO, the Republicans have not done enough to save unborn babies. After seeing Michael Steele beat around the bush about his stance on abortion (he’s pro-life) during the debate with Ben Cardin, it convinced me to switch my party affiliation to…unaffiliated. When asked “Are you against abortion?” He completely skirted the question and said that his campaign was “much more” than that and how the power should go back to the states, but never once said Yes or No. (Even when the moderator asked him again.)

I would never vote for a democrat who is pro-choice, but I’m not going to play useful idiot to the republicans anymore. I’ll submit to the write-in or a 3rd party, pro-life candidate who is willing to say that he/she is against abortion. Some might say that I’m “throwing my vote away” but hey, I voted, and I voted according to my conscience. That’s all that really matters.

What I’d like to see is a candidate who will support funding for pre-natal care, counseling, housing, day care, job training etc. for women in crisis pregnancies. You can be pro-life all you want, but once the women make the choice to keep their babies, you can’t just leave them high and dry.

 

[jwashu]

Unless the Pro-Life canidate is one that will instill more social programs, oppose the death penality (as the Chuch teaches), work towards getting us out of an “un-just” war etc… I will probably be voting for the Candidate who is most likely to decrease the number of abortions performed each year the most.

Thus I will probably be voting for a Pro-Choice candidate…

Twisted as it may seem, abortions seem to go down until Pro-Choice administrations and go up or stay flat during Pro-life ones. This isn’t because of their stance on abortion, this is because of their stance on the other social issues we as Catholics believe in.

We side with “conservatives” because of 2 maybe 3 issues while we ignore the rest. Yet, as I stated previously, our largest one seems to go in the opposite direction while they are in office.

I will working towards reversing R v W but I will also vote for the person who I believe will save the most lives.

Maybe someday I can vote for someone who will do both… or I may just run myself.

Joe

 

[vern_humphrey]

Twisted as it may seem, abortions seem to go down until Pro-Choice administrations and go up or stay flat during Pro-life ones. This isn’t because of their stance on abortion, this is because of their stance on the other social issues we as Catholics believe in.

Ah, that explains why the most recent abortion numbers are the lowest in almost two decades.

 

[dmelosi]

The typical response of someone who is a hardcore “no matter what” Democrat is to explain for ways to ease their conscience by echoing the democratic party on justifying murder. Wake up!

 

[vern_humphrey]

The typical response of someone who is a hardcore “no matter what” Democrat is to explain for ways to ease their conscience by echoing the democratic party on justifying murder. Wake up!

There are those who purport to believe that “social programs” can somehow reduce the number of abortions – so voting for a pro-abortion candidate is justified if he supports the right “social programs.”

 

[seekerz]

Those who see abortion as a political issue are simply missing the big picture. Too often we consider issues in a vacuum, like we live in some kind of bubble and no one else in other countries or ages have faced the same challenges.

Abortion is not just a problem in America, involving Democrats and Republicans or the left and the right, it is a problem all over the world, even in the few places where it is still illegal. Parties/ideologies/politicians did not invent the problem and they certainly cannot provide the answers. Focusing on them prevents us from finding real solutions that work.

Abortion is a symptom of illness of the soul, both of the individual and of society. Making it about politics and law just dilutes our efforts and polarizes people.

 

[wabrams]

Unless the Pro-Life canidate is one that will instill more social programs, **oppose the death penality (as the Chuch teaches), **

Inocrrect.

work towards getting us out of an “un-just” war etc…

Prove it.

I will probably be voting for the Candidate who is most likely to decrease the number of abortions performed each year the most.

Thus I will probably be voting for a Pro-Choice candidate…

That’s like saying I oppose drug use and want drugs out of my neighborhood, but I will turn over the local drug dealer to the authorities.

Twisted as it may seem, abortions seem to go down until Pro-Choice administrations and go up or stay flat during Pro-life ones. This isn’t because of their stance on abortion, this is because of their stance on the other social issues we as Catholics believe in.

Prove it.