Why Would A Catholic Vote For A ProChoice Canidate?

[stringbeanduck]

That is a very good prayer. Thankyou for posting.

 

[mpb74]

As to the question of the thread:

Many people vote with their pocketbooks. The elderly are often bombarded with propaganda that the pro abortion candidate will protect them from the other parties evil politicians who want to cut their social security benefits , and their medicare benefits.

Fear, a great weapon of Satan, is used to cloud the minds of voters. The human instinct for self preservation kicks in and prevents the ability of reason to function. Their own comfort and well being override their ability to see that they are complicit in the act of murdering human beings by voting for people who vote for, and fund, legislation that leads to innocent children being hacked to death in the supposed safety of their mothers wombs.

Intentional killing of innocent human beings, for no other reason than the conveinence of other human beings, is always wrong and never justifiable.

I was lapsed for many years, and have recently come home to the Church. I always stood up for the Catholic Church when it was ridiculed for it’s positions on faith and morality. As I watched these politicians, of all parties, proclaim their Catholicism, while advancing legislation against Church teaching I was amazed. I would simply say, they aren’t Catholic if that is their position on this issue. Catholic’s are against abortion. If you vote for a pro abortion candidate, you’re not a Catholic. You can go to Church every Sunday, every day even, but you are still not Catholic. You are a Catholic*. The asterisk sets you apart.

Nobody is going to pull you from the pew and cast you into the gutter because of the way you vote in an election, even if they know who you voted for. It’s kind of like the honor code. You know. And you know that God knows. I could be wrong but I think God holds those who know better to a higher standard than the ignorant.

If you voted for a pro abortion candidate you murdered my child many years ago. I fathered a child in a premarital relationship. I begged and pleaded with her not to abort our baby. There was nothing I could do to stop it. Nothing. Because five men in Washington decided she could legally commit murder. Pro abortion voting caused that. Votes have consequences. We are responsible for the consequences of our votes.

 

[mpb74]

My apologies to the wonks. I am sure that many do good works. But merely reading their position papers does not give one a grasp on anything, if the reader does not have a well formed concience. The reader has to have a firm grasp on objective truth before he can understand the spiritual implications and the goodness of actions promoted by such policies.

Case in point. Reducing AIDS is a good thing. Many readers of a policy paper describing a more efficient system of distributing condoms, and of getting teenagers to use them will say. “Why that’s brilliant”. A reader with a well formed concience and a working knowledge of Church teaching of moral truths. will know that these are proposals that promote immorality. You can not do evil to stop evil. Do good to stop evil. Peter Kreeft said, “Don’t fight fire with fire, fight fire with water”

No slam on wonks who are legitimately and with morality trying to solve any of mankinds myriad of problems. A slam intended on those pushing immoral agendas under the color of humanitarianism. Wake up call intended to anyone who believes they have a grasp on the problems facing humanity because he reads papers on them. Life experience, and good moral training are also required to understand such complex problems. I probably wouldn’t be able to predict the chances of sucess of policies, but I do know if they are morally right or if they are morally wrong.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To MPB74 - Thank you for your posts #'s 497 & 498. They were excellent. Anyone who cannot see abortion as evil is wandering in a moral fog. We can all come out with old cliches but they do say volumes. Abortion is murder. It’s a life, not a choice. The end does not justify the means. Instead too many of our so called Catholic politicians throw the teachings of our True Faith out the window and say they are looking after the huddled masses by putting them on entitlement programs, just to keep getting votes; thereby creating a dependent class that is mired in moral ignorance, What we see is the result of people not living according to the truth. Another cliche says this one quiet well. Truth will set you free.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Sorry Pong I dont agree with you at all.
NO it should not stop. There are massive similarities.
Why are the holocaust victims more important than the in utero infants? The only difference is size.
Both type of victims are dehumanised. remember Roe v Wade? that said that the in utero infant is not human and therefore discardible. The Jewish people were dehumanised and then destroyed as were other 6 million victims.
Sorry Pong you have it wrong.
The slaughter of the Jews and others was a prefiguring of the slaughter to come in the second half of the 20th century. Abortion.
GraceAngel.

Grace Angel:

The comparison is as valid as all get out! The Nazis and their European allies slaughtered 22 million innocent people (Jews, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Gypsies”, Slavs, Serbs, Masons, Communists, the Disabled - both Mentally and Physically, etc.) in the Death Camps and other places during the period 1933-1945.

Since Roe v. Wade in 1973, we’ve slaughtered over 47 Million innocent babies whose only crime has been that they were “in the wrong wombs”. Since 1973, 13 Million of these Abortions have been performed on Black women, which means that, since 1973, over 13 million African-American Babies have been slaughtered in what can only be described as a transgenerational genocide.

Those who are familiar with the writings of Planned Parenthood’s founders and who know where the Nazis got their ideas of Racial Eugenics will know what type of project that sounds like.

If we replace the word “Abortion” with “Slavery” or “Genocide”, our choice becomes much more stark and clear, as does the lie people on the Left are telling themselves when they vote for “Pro-Choice” (Actually Pro-Death or Pro-Murder) candidates because they can’t see the difference between policy issues they disagre with and outright MASS-MURDER.

Left me say it this way so the choice is clear - "Candidate X supports ‘The Right to Own and Sell Chatell Property (Slaves), because Chatell Property are NOT persons and have NO rights under the law.’ while Candidate Y supports the Abolition of Slavery and opposes “The Right to own Chatell Property (Slaves) because slaves are persons and SHOULD have the same rights and protection of the laws as the rest of us.’”

We all now know just how morally wrong and repugnant the former position is, and would never support any politician who held it even if we agreed with the rest of his “social and foreign policies”, because that would not only be immoral, but monstrous. At the same time, we would be absolutely appalled if anyone failed to support the later if the former (Pro-Slavery) were the other choice, even if that person disagreed with all of the rest of the 2nd politician’s “social and foreign policies”, as the issue of slavery would trump all the other far more minor issues.

Just as we all are rightly horrified at position many held during the Civil War regarding Slavery, we are also horrified at what the genocides done by the Nazis, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge and so many others during the 20th century. We should, therefore, be absolutely be horrified at anyone who supported genocide, or continued genocide, of any form.

But, because the Genocide is of Babies in uturo, and because this has been allowed by law and supported by “the Liberal Party” which supports so many supposedly good things, we find ourselves in the embarrassing position of supporting politicians who support this continued genocide either because we agree with their social and foreign policy, or because we so disagree with some policy promoted by the other politicians, or because of hatred and loathing of those politicians.

That is simply immoral and a betrayal of the innocent, as well as the “Silent Consent” English Common Law and St. Thomas More spoke of. No more and no less.

Those Democrats who claim the Republicans haven’t done enough refuse to account for the actions of their own party in blocking Anti-Abortion Legislation and Left-Wing activist judges who consistently rule the Legislation that does pass Unconstitutional.

Maybe they should ask what their own party’s platform is and what the DNC would do to either abolish this genocide or to insure the continued Genocide of Abortion or, worse yet, to expand it this genocide throughout the world.

I think we all know the answer. The question is, will “Pro-Life” Democrats be honest enough to answer it, or will they still be in denial about the party they’ve chosen and that I’ve finally left?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Oh I get it. He has a different viewpoint, therefore he must be young and naive. It doesn’t matter how much older I get, I personally will never think of abortion as a holocaust or see it as the greatest evil in the world. Ever.

Pong:

“Common sense Catholicism” requires that we accept the Teaching of the Undivided Church as expressed by both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has taught “to all people, in all places at all times” for the last 2,000 years that the fetus is a human being from conception and that the killing of the fetus is homicide.

Since 1973, our country has slaughtered over 47 million fetuses in utero (unborn babies per Church Teaching). At the same time, what the women who’ve had the abortions have suffered as a consequence of the abortions has been hardly a picnic.

Are you saying that’s not a tragedy of immense proportions?

The Nazis slaughtered 18 million of various people (See the list on my previous post) from 1939-1945 (22 million 1933-1945).

We’ve slaughtered over 2x that many!

How would you describe that? Or, Are you going to say that the Church you claim to belong to has been wrong for 2,000 years?

Remember, Abortion was LEGAL during 1st through early 4th centuries A.D. - So NO one can claim Abortion is something that’s new.

Yours in Christ, Michael

 

[Jeff_KC]

“Resist not evil.”

 

[signit]

As to the question of the thread:

Many people vote with their pocketbooks. The elderly are often bombarded with propaganda that the pro abortion candidate will protect them from the other parties evil politicians who want to cut their social security benefits , and their medicare benefits.

This is a terrific post and really touches on why the pro-life Catholic might vote for the pro-choice Democrat.

It’s understandable (not totally “right”) that people will vote for issues that are right there in front of them and see the abortion issue as “out there somewhere” and say, “well, my representative won’t be able to do anything about it anyway because the SprememCourt has ruled on the issue.” If the staunch pro-life candidate is also the person threatening to cut aid to the elderly, or is even depicted that way, the low-income senior might go in the other direction.

You are right in that much of it is indeed propaganda.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“Resist not evil.”

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
– Edmund Burke

 

[Pong]

Are you saying that’s not a tragedy of immense proportions?

Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying.

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has taught “to all people, in all places at all times” for the last 2,000 years that the fetus is a human being from conception and that the killing of the fetus is homicide.

Actually, that isn’t true. That has not been the case from the beginning.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying.

Actually, that isn’t true. That has not been the case from the beginning.

Pong:

Aside from the Scriptures, here is a a quote from the Didache, a late 1st century manual of instruction:

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. …you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born…
earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (from the Vatican Website):

Abortion

*2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.

From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.71

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.72
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.73

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.74
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.75

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."79

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.
When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined…
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."80

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual…
It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."81

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."82
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."83
"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities.
Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"84 which are unique and unrepeatable.*

References and conclusion on next post, Michael

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

That is exactly what I’m saying.

Really?

Actually, that isn’t true. That has not been the case from the beginning.

Pong - for our edification, please tell us where you get your alleged sophistic erudition.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Reply to Pong, con.,

References for Abortion from CCC and Conclusion:

71 Cf. CDF, Donum vitae I, 1.
72 > Jer 1:5; cf. > Job 10:8-12; > Ps 22:10-11.
73 > Ps 139:15.
74 Didache 2, 2: SCh 248, 148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19, 5: PG 2, 777; Ad
Diognetum 5, 6: PG 2, 1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9: PL 1, 319-320.
75 GS 51 # 3.
76 > CIC, can. 1398.
77 > CIC, can. 1314.
78 Cf. > CIC, cann. 1323-1324.
79 CDF, Donum vitae III.
80 CDF, Donum vitae III.
81 CDF, Donum vitae I, 2.
82 CDF, Donum vitae I, 3.
83 CDF, Donum vitae I, 5.
84 CDF, Donum vitae I, 6.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

Pong, please accept the clear teaching of the Church. There is no right of dissent on this one.

You might as well claim, as the Archbishop of Canterbury just did, that the Christmas Story told in the Gospels is all a myth; or, as Bishop Shelby Spong has done, that Jesus is still in the grave and that the Resurrection was a “Mystical and spiritual event in our hearts”.

Just as you can’t believe either of these things and be a Christian, so you can’t be a Catholic (or an Orthodox) and be “Pro-Choice”.

QED, Michael

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Pong - Let me remind you, that to be truly Catholic, you must believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches. If you do not, you are not Catholic, no matter what you call yourself. Also, please consider those whom you might be leading astray. That is a great burden to carry to judgment.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Pong - Let me remind you, that to be truly Catholic, you must believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches. If you do not, you are not Catholic, no matter what you call yourself. Also, please consider those whom you might be leading astray. That is a great burden to carry to judgment.
Deacon Ed B

Deacon Ed B and Pong:

Now that Deacon Ed B has issued this warning, for the preservation of my soul, in accordance with Ezekiel 3:7-15, & 33:1-9, I must concur. This is serious business.

Thank you for posting as you did, Deacon Ed B. Often it is hard to remember that this isn’t just an academic discussion or a debate where we “rack up points”.

As St. Thomas More said, we do, “Hold our souls in our hands.”

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Pong]

Pong, please accept the clear teaching of the Church. There is no right of dissent on this one.

God endowed me with a conscience as did he you. After much thought and contemplation, I have come to hold this position. And before anyone decides to make great leaps between my viewpoint and, say Hitler’s, (as many here are prone to do) we are discussing abortion. I make the separation between abortion and genocide, serial killing, whatever scary term one may wish to use.

You might as well claim, as the Archbishop of Canterbury just did, that the Christmas Story told in the Gospels is all a myth; or, as Bishop Shelby Spong has done, that Jesus is still in the grave and that the Resurrection was a “Mystical and spiritual event in our hearts”.

Try again.

Just as you can’t believe either of these things and be a Christian, so you can’t be a Catholic (or an Orthodox) and be “Pro-Choice”.

Ah, so. My baptism and confirmation have been revoked, have they?

Pong - Let me remind you, that to be truly Catholic, you must believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches. If you do not, you are not Catholic, no matter what you call yourself. Also, please consider those whom you might be leading astray. That is a great burden to carry to judgment.

Sir, how dare you? I am as much a Catholic as you are, much as it must trouble you. How is it that you make the leap to my “leading people astray”? Has it ever occurred to you that I may not tell people that this is what the Catholic Church believes? Or do you really think that I tout the fact that I’m pro-choice and flippantly declare that I am Catholic too? You have no idea how I live my life.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

I am curious, why would a Catholic vote for a prochoice canidate?

If it is because the candidate is ‘pro-choice’, I propose that it is selfishness. I can’t see any other reason. The desire to not be burdened with the care of children that others may abandon. Kill the child before she’s cute, and we don’t have to worry about such inconveniences.

Sincerely,

Dan Grelinger

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Sir, how dare you? I am as much a Catholic as you are, much as it must trouble you. How is it that you make the leap to my “leading people astray”? Has it ever occurred to you that I may not tell people that this is what the Catholic Church believes? Or do you really think that I tout the fact that I’m pro-choice and flippantly declare that I am Catholic too?

Didn’t you just do that?

To reject the clear and official teachings of the Church is to either reject Christ, or to reject the Church as being established by Christ and continually guided by the Holy Spirit.

Either way, it would seem that such a member would not want to stay a member, or even admit membership in the Universal Church established by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Hence the paradox. Why do such people still call themselves Catholic? I have my assumptions, but I’ll listen to other reasoning.

Sincerely,

Dan Grelinger

 

[Swan]

God endowed me with a conscience as did he you. After much thought and contemplation, I have come to hold this position. And before anyone decides to make great leaps between my viewpoint and, say Hitler’s, (as many here are prone to do) we are discussing abortion. I make the separation between abortion and genocide, serial killing, whatever scary term one may wish to use.

Sir, how dare you? I am as much a Catholic as you are, much as it must trouble you. How is it that you make the leap to my “leading people astray”? Has it ever occurred to you that I may not tell people that this is what the Catholic Church believes? Or do you really think that I tout the fact that I’m pro-choice and flippantly declare that I am Catholic too? You have no idea how I live my life.

Thank you. Regardless of what one believes, it is imperitive that all are given the freedom to decide their beliefs for themselves. Most of us form our beliefs based on personal experience and, since none but us and God can know how we have been effected by our experiences, I find it somewhat arrogant for others to automatically offer their damning assessment. I also find the automatic assumption that women only have abortions for convenience insulting as a woman. Unless you have personally spoken to all women who have ever had abotions and they have expressed this opinion to you, then you are generalizing in a very uncharitiable fashion. Indeed, there are threads on this very forum quoting women who had abortions (which they regret) for much less shallow reasons. They deserve compassion, not outright insults. Christ looked on sinners with love and mercy - that is why they followed him. It is, I believe, what he had in mind for us also.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Where do I start. How dare I? I dare to boldly speak the truth on what the Church teaches. If you cannot accept its teaching, than you are not Catholic no matter what you say. It is not Deacon Ed B that says that, it is the Church that teaches that. As I said, If you cannot accept the teaching, then you are not truly Catholic. It’s like saying, I want to be called one. Why, when you do not accept all that it believes and teaches. And even with a closed mind, saying that no one can tell you otherwise. Tell that to the Holy Spirit who infallibly guides the Church. Or do you disbelieve that also.
Deacon Ed B