Why would a loving god make us lesser creatures?

[CeaselessMedik]

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but it sounds like you do not understand your own human nature. For example. “We’re pets, basically.” from post 1.

Since hopefully, I am mistaken, would you please share just what your own human nature is. Once you are able to do that, then most likely you will have an answer to the thread’s question, i.e., if you want an answer.

Only the body is proven, but we are somehow capable of mental activity above the instinctual level. Spirits and gods are just conjecture, but I’m playing along for this thread.

If you’ve ever run a forum, they can have multiple administrators, but the maker has the most control. Why can’t it be like that?

 

[HickmanJosh]

Why create us separate in the first place?

Probably because He wanted to give us a free choice, to live in a world filled with both the option to live without Love and to live with Love. Love by its very nature is voluntary, otherwise its just control, no depth, no trust.

God obviously doesn’t want a race of robots serving him, He would gain nothing by it. But there is something about Love that desires an other, but also beauty!

Perhaps also God wanted to make something beautiful and share that beauty with creatures who could enjoy it, partake in it and become beautiful themselves, again if they so chose.

 

[cornbread_r2]

no it doesn’t.

The reason there is no ‘chance’ is not that God won’t GIVE us the chance–it is that once we have entered eternity, time doesn’t exist. There is no ‘future’ in which we ‘could’ change our minds–we exist in a constant ‘now’ in which we freely, consistently, and for that eternity keep ON choosing NOT to reconcile with God.

…]

God’s justice, mercy and power are constrained by time – something he created? Also, how does one “keep on choosing not to reconcile” in an environment devoid of time? To choose not to do something repeatedly implies the passage of time.

Also, souls are consigned to Purgatory until purified. That indicates a change – from impure to purified – and that also implies the passage of time. (At one time the church even quantified indulgences in terms of days and years.) It seems then that the notion of an eternal now doesn’t apply to Purgatory. Does Purgatory exist inside space and time?

 

[grannymh]

Only the body is proven, but we are somehow capable of mental activity above the instinctual level. Spirits and gods are just conjecture, but I’m playing along for this thread.

If you’ve ever run a forum, they can have multiple administrators, but the maker has the most control. Why can’t it be like that?

It is interesting that you are avoiding the real question about basic human nature as taught by the Catholic Church.

Apparently, as you say in post 41, you are playing along for this thread.

 

[fhansen]

We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships,l but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.

No matter how great, how close to Himself, God were to make a being, that being will always be made by Him, and therefore inherently inferior to Him, and even dependent on Him for its very existence. But that being is also inherently part of Him, an expression of Him, and it’s only if and when such a being decides that they want to be separate from Him that a conflict or jealousy may arise. And that’s exactly what Adam did. Otherwise we all stay on the same team, so to speak, everything in its natural order. Of course God’s superiority should be recognized and held in high esteem-He is unavoidably superior after all. Why should we want it otherwise?

 

[CeaselessMedik]

This (supposed) logicking only works in the confines of this universe. If God wanted to do something we think is impossible, couldn’t he just “step back” and do it? Didn’t he create logic?

 

[fhansen]

This (supposed) logicking only works in the confines of this universe. If God wanted to do something we think is impossible, couldn’t he just “step back” and do it? Didn’t he create logic?

Would you think He could create another God? Could He create a square circle?

 

[Lochias]

This (supposed) logicking only works in the confines of this universe. If God wanted to do something we think is impossible, couldn’t he just “step back” and do it? Didn’t he create logic?

Because God has placed Order and Logic into the world. Why would He “create logic” only to go against His own creations?

Your argument doesn’t make any sense. Granted, God’s thoughts and ways are far, far beyond ours, but they’re not alien. We live in a world wherein we can see just how logical and ordered everything in creation actually is. Look at how a nerve cell in the human body works sometime, and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[grannymh]

Would you think He could create another God? Could He create a square circle?

Square circles are red herrings.

However, you do refer to the Catholic philosophy that there can only be one God. This is interesting because it seems to me that when some, not all, non-Catholics ask about a loving God and His lesser humans, they are missing the obvious Catholic truths regarding the differences between a Creator and His creation–which by the way include the purpose of the human person. Also there is a tendency that some, not all, non-Catholics have a difficulty with human nature.

 

[Pugsly]

We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships,l but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.

Did it ever occur to you that creation is an act of restraint? God saw a Path (Jesus) of rescue…through the sea of chaos.
Did it occur to you that creation is a great act of courage on God’s part? Jesus takes on the lowest volitional form (the weakest free being) to express God’s perfect humility, mercy, patience, obedience…etc.

God does not aim at making “toys” to serve Him…but free beings. Did you not ever wonder why there is a “hospital” in heaven? (The book of revelation refers to the tree of Life…whose leaves are for healing)

God knows we are limited beings and will always have limits…but let’s give glory to God in the Highest for His Mercy endures forever!:harp:

 

[fhansen]

We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships,l but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.

The trick He endeavors to teach us is for us to learn how to love. This is a trick we’re inclined to be suspicious about, thinking that I may, perhaps, gain a greater happiness if I’m “smarter”, smart enough to not put love first, smart enough to put me first. He knows otherwise, that extravagant, self-sacrificing love is the source of unending, ineffable love for humankind.

 

[jochoa]

Thanks for the excellent food for thought, CeaselesMedik! I look forward to discussion.

God did not make humans lesser creatures. We are the pinnacle of creatures, and here is how you can know: The greatest experience in living, no matter what type of being, is limitless happiness with unbreakable peace. The rule necessary to experience this is the free submission to being perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all feelings, spirit (remembrance of person), thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self, even in the face of unjust cruelty. God has given human beings these abilities, which makes us the greatest of creatures.

We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships,l but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.

God wants us to truly live with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom (experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all). In order to get to this experience, one must serve the perfect motivation. There is no greater motivation, than one that is omnipotent (it never runs out of energy to give), omnipresent (it is available everywhere), eternal (it lasts forever), personal (it has an interest in you), and loving (it must be perfectly patient and kind for limitless happiness with unbreakable peace). Only the One True God meets all of these requirements. In order to get to this experience, one must also do certain “tricks”, namely Embrace the Cross of being patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty.

If you’ve ever run a forum, they can have multiple administrators, but the maker has the most control. Why can’t it be like that?

It is like that on earth. The reason we call the servers of Mass and the Word, ministers, is because they are administrators of God’s Church. The Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Nuns, etc. all follow the will of the Maker, who has the control, to help share the Mass and the Word. What is really cool is that, just like running a forum, once a member becomes best friends with the creator, the need for multiple administrators remains for the future members who will become best friends with the creator. This happens once we get to heaven, where the resurrected body of Jesus and Mary went, where we will await the coming of other best friends.

Didn’t he create logic?

God created logic, in the sense, that without creation, logic could not physically exist. On the other hand, since God is perfectly logical, God cannot be the One True God, if logic didn’t conceptually exist.
In other words, if you recognize logic exists, then you should know there is a pinnacle of logic, and this pinnacle of logic leads us to the One True God: The Holy Trinity: Jesus Christ and His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to ponder some ideas! You helped make my morning more enjoyable, and you helped me grow in perspective, faith, knowledge, and wisdom.

 

[fhansen]

Oops! My last post #51 was supposed to read a bit differently:

We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships,l but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.

The trick He endeavors to teach us is for us to learn how to love. This is a trick we’re inclined to be suspicious about, thinking that I may, perhaps, gain a greater happiness if I’m “smarter”, smart enough to not put love first, smart enough to put me first. He knows otherwise, that extravagant, self-sacrificing love is the source of unending, ineffable happiness for humankind.

 

[jochoa]

Would you think He could create another God?

I have determined the answer to be yes, and it relies on defining God. I propose that God is the person who is always freely being perfectly patient and kind equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace. This person can create another person who is always freely being perfectly… Therefore, God could create another God.
Here are two lines of thinking which connect teachings directly from Catholicism which initially helped me determine that by some means God could create another God:

1. If God can be begotten, and God can proceed, then surely God can be created.
2. Since
   a. there is only one life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God,
   b. the last Adam (human) is a life-giving spirit,
   c. and the last Adam is the first Adam, who was created,
   Then: a creation can be a life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God.
   Therefore, God can create another God.

Excellent food for thought! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[fhansen]

I have determined the answer to be yes, and it relies on defining God. I propose that God is the person who is always freely being perfectly patient and kind equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace. This person can create another person who is always freely being perfectly… Therefore, God could create another God.
Here are two lines of thinking which connect teachings directly from Catholicism which initially helped me determine that by some means God could create another God:

1. If God can be begotten, and God can proceed, then surely God can be created.
2. Since
   a. there is only one life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God,
   b. the last Adam (human) is a life-giving spirit,
   c. and the last Adam is the first Adam, who was created,
   Then: a creation can be a life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God.
   Therefore, God can create another God.

Excellent food for thought! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

One problem here is that the only begotten Son of God was uncreated.

 

[Razanir]

One problem here is that the only begotten Son of God was uncreated.

Also, the point is moot. Even if God could create another god, He wouldn’t, I don’t think

 

[grannymh]

I have determined the answer to be yes, and it relies on defining God. I propose that God is the person who is always freely being perfectly patient and kind equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace. This person can create another person who is always freely being perfectly… Therefore, God could create another God.
Here are two lines of thinking which connect teachings directly from Catholicism which initially helped me determine that by some means God could create another God:

1. If God can be begotten, and God can proceed, then surely God can be created.
2. Since
   a. there is only one life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God,
   b. the last Adam (human) is a life-giving spirit,
   c. and the last Adam is the first Adam, who was created,
   Then: a creation can be a life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God.
   Therefore, God can create another God.

Excellent food for thought! I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Sounds more like sour grapes.

1. is opposed to Catholicism.
2. a. true
   2 b. is opposed to Catholic teachings on Original Sin and consequently opposed to the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
3. c. is a misleading extrapolation and a red herring.

The conclusion “Therefore, God can create another God” is actually a centuries old attack on the Divinity of God.

Catholicism has always taught that God is Divine.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Geez, I sleep and the thread practically doubles in size. I didn’t read this all because it’s TLDR and started to sound the same, but again you’re thinking within the confines of this universe’s logic. Of course God could defy it - he can be three and one at the same time, be man and god, etc.
Also, he didn’t find a way to save us by Jesus; he MADE the rule that he had to “sacrifice” himself to himself to “save” us from the hell he sends us to if we don’t follow him. That’s what it is: if there were really two equal choices (to believe/serve or not to), one wouldn’t end in eternal torment.

 

[benjammin]

This is kind of a dumb question for quite a few reasons

1. God created us in his image and likeness. I hardly think that makes us lesser beings. In fact it almost makes us kind of like him in a way. If he wanted us to be lesser, he would have made us apes

2.While we should acknowledge God as master, its not because were his slaves or pets. We are living in his universe, in a sense his “House” and he is the master of it. Wouldn’t it be appropriate to recognize him as master?

1. We don’t have to do these “tricks” if we don’t want to. As hard as that may be, that is truly real love. It is real love that allows God to let us in a sense choose our salvation or damnation. Would you rather he just controlled us like robots, programming us just to do his bidding?
2. If we are lesser beings, than why does God care and provide for us. He gave us this world. He gave us plants and animals and water and so many things to help us along. I know this might not seem like much, but one again, if God made us lesser beings, he could have just put us in a cage like a dog

5.He sent his son to save us. That takes real love as well. Why else would he do it? To stroke his own ego? To make us feel guilty that we killed him? If he sacrafices his own son, he must not think we are “lesser”

 

[grannymh]

Geez, I sleep and the thread practically doubles in size. I didn’t read this all because it’s TLDR and started to sound the same, but again you’re thinking within the confines of this universe’s logic. Of course God could defy it - he can be three and one at the same time, be man and god, etc.
Also, he didn’t find a way to save us by Jesus; he MADE the rule that he had to “sacrifice” himself to himself to “save” us from the hell he sends us to if we don’t follow him. That’s what it is: if there were really two equal choices (to believe/serve or not to), one wouldn’t end in eternal torment.

Reply to this comment from post 58. “but again you’re thinking within the confines of this universe’s logic.”

I am not really sure which kind of thinking that comment applies to. I also do not have a clue as to the meaning of TLDR.
In any case, may I gently point out that the Catholic Church does not think within the confines of this universe’s logic. I can say this because the real God is not confined to anything in this universe. However, I do understand non-Catholic thinking.