Why would a loving god make us lesser creatures?

[ilovejebus]

Don’t think it makes them mad

 

[grannymh]

We human beings look around at all the species natural to our planet. We look at the human species and find that we are the superior species, no doubt about it.

So the real question–the real question underneath the thread’s question–is why should there be a species greater than our own loving species? Why should there be a super-natural species? Why a greater species than ours?

 

[fhansen]

I’m not the Church…

Yes? And I’m not an adherent of sola scriptura. I believe the Church’s understanding of the nature and will of God to be the right one.

 

[grannymh]

We human beings look around at all the species natural to our planet. We look at the human species and find that we are the superior species, no doubt about it.

So the real question–the real question underneath the thread’s question–is why should there be a species greater than our own loving species? Why should there be a super-natural species? Why a greater species than ours?

Too often, we look at thread questions solely from what we see in our material environment. We are baying at the moon.

It takes humility (a foreign word in this decade) to look up at the moon and actually do something with our mind. We need to stop complaining, stop baying, and ask ourselves some serious questions. Why is there a moon? Who are we who are admiring its beauty? How did we get here? Where do we go when we can no longer see the moon?

Is there a super-natural species, one greater than ours Who has the answers if we would listen?

From the beginning of human history, there has always been a sense of the super-natural. While no one really thinks of “species” in reference to the super-natural, there is the natural instinct that a super-natural being exists and He is called God.
As opposed to our natural material environment, the super-natural God is a transcendent Pure Spirit capable of interacting with us.

“Scottish Folds reflect a part of God’s love and pass that love along to us if we are blessed enough to see God’s reflection in a simple cat.” from a post by Little Soldier.

From here, we turn this thread’s question upside down. We now ask: "Why has a loving God, Who is responsible for the beauty and love in our material environment, created us as the creature who is peerless? Why has God given us the capability to know Him?

 

[jochoa]

Thanks you all for sharing your perspectives!

One problem here is that the only begotten Son of God was uncreated.

The only-begotten Son of God is definitely uncreated. However, what about the created sons of God. Consider this line of thinking: If the Son of God can be God, then a Son of God can be God. Since we can be a son of God, then surely by some means we can be God. This is in-alignment with CCC#460:
"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80

Also, the point is moot. Even if God could create another god, He wouldn’t, I don’t think

In order to know if God would create another God, try to answer: What is the purpose for God creating? Then answer: What is necessary to fulfill that purpose?
If you will also refer to CCC#460:
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81 Therefore, according to the Catholic Faith, God is making other gods.

Sounds more like sour grapes.

1. is opposed to Catholicism.
2. a. true
   2 b. is opposed to Catholic teachings on Original Sin and consequently opposed to the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
3. c. is a misleading extrapolation and a red herring.

The conclusion “Therefore, God can create another God” is actually a centuries old attack on the Divinity of God.

Catholicism has always taught that God is Divine.

Would you please tell me what it means for something to “sound like sour grapes”?

1. To reconcile #1, please consider CCC#460. Also, would you please share your understanding of Catholicism’s usage of “proceeds”?
2. To reconcile #2, please consider CCC#359: "The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit…The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: “I am the first and the last.” Therefore, I do not perceive any misleading extrapolation. Do you still perceive any misleading?

Also, when I state, “God can create another God,” there is no attack on the Divinity of God. Unfortunately, I am not wise enough to share how it isn’t. I will definitely pray hard on finding the Wisdom which reveals there is no attack on the Divinity of God.

Thank you very much for such excellent food for thought! I look forward to extended discussion!

 

[grannymh]

In answer to Jochoa, post 101

Here is the reasoning…

1. If God can be begotten, and God can proceed, then surely God can be created.
2. is opposed to Catholicism which teaches that God is the ultimate Creator Who is not created by any other god.
3. Since
   a. there is only one life-giving spirit, who is the Holy Spirit, who is God,
   2.a. true

b. the last Adam (human) is a life-giving spirit,
b. is opposed to Catholic teachings on Original Sin and consequently opposed to the Divinity of Christ. Original Sin was committed by Adam who had a true human nature.
God is the life-giving Spirit which is not the same as Adam’s human nature which is an unique unification of both the material world *and *the spiritual world. Because the human Adam shattered the relationship between humanity and divinity, the Redeemer had to be both human and divine. Usually, the last Adam refers to Christ and you have the last Adam as human which omits the Divinity of Christ.

c. and the last Adam is the first Adam, who was created,
c. is a misleading extrapolation and a red herring. One needs to be careful when reading comparisons and not jump to the assumption that one person is the other person. Trying to equate the divine “Adam” at the time of the Crucifixion with the “human Adam” at the beginning of human history is a distraction from the real issue which is can God be created or is God the ultimate Creator as taught by Catholicism.
Obviously, the Ultimate Pure Spirit Creator cannot at the same time be a created creature who is not a pure spirit.

Regarding CCC 460 and 359. My apology. But your interpretation is beyond me so I really cannot reply. However, I will point out that the sentence at the end of the supplementary material (see CCC 20-21 for explanation) found in CCC 359 looks like a summary of the two distinct persons, Adam and Christ. If that is the case, then when Christ refers to Himself, He is describing Himself as True God and True Man.

In my humble opinion, I really cannot add any more information for discussion.

 

[jochoa]

1. If God can be begotten, and God can proceed, then surely God can be created.
2. is opposed to Catholicism which teaches that God is the ultimate Creator Who is not created by any other god.

Thank you very much for sharing further details! Please consider that I am not declaring God is created by any other god. I am stating:
Since Catholicism knows “we (created man) might become God,” then surely God might be created by God."

1. Since
   b. the last Adam (human) is a life-giving spirit,
   b. is opposed to Catholic teachings on Original Sin and consequently opposed to the Divinity of Christ. Original Sin was committed by Adam who had a true human nature.
   God is the life-giving Spirit which is not the same as Adam’s human nature which is an unique unification of both the material world *and *the spiritual world. Because the human Adam shattered the relationship between humanity and divinity, the Redeemer had to be both human and divine. Usually, the last Adam refers to Christ and you have the last Adam as human which omits the Divinity of Christ.

Excellent points! I agree with the line, “the life-giving Spirit is not the same as Adam’s human nature.” Now consider Catholicism teaches “the life-giving Spirit, the last Adam, is the first Adam.” Therefore, a created man can somehow become a life-giving Spirit. What are your understandings on the teachings of being True Man? In order to be True Man, must one have a true human nature? Jesus is God, then Man can be God. And last consideration, Mary is truly human, and she was created without Original Sin.

Trying to equate the divine “Adam” at the time of the Crucifixion with the “human Adam” at the beginning of human history is a distraction from the real issue which is can God be created or is God the ultimate Creator as taught by Catholicism.

Perhaps consider this line of thinking: God is Perfection. The ultimate Creator should be able to create Perfection. Therefore, the ultimate Creator(God) can create Perfection(God).

Obviously, the Ultimate Pure Spirit Creator cannot at the same time be a created creature who is not a pure spirit.

I agree. Although the Ultimate Pure Spirit Creator cannot at the same time be a created creature who is not a pure spirit, perhaps a created creature can become a pure spirit.

Regarding CCC 460 and 359. My apology. But your interpretation is beyond me so I really cannot reply. However, I will point out that the sentence at the end of the supplementary material (see CCC 20-21 for explanation) found in CCC 359 looks like a summary of the two distinct persons, Adam and Christ. If that is the case, then when Christ refers to Himself, He is describing Himself as True God and True Man.

In my humble opinion, I really cannot add any more information for discussion.

Thank you for the excellent discussion! I will definitely try to figure out how to more gracefully demonstrate alignment with Catholicism!

 

[livingwordunity]

Even people he sends to hell because they didn’t believe. And I didn’t mean you literally call him “Master.” “Lord,” “Shepherd,” etc.

Hell means being away from God. Hell is a bad place because God is the source of all things that are good such as love, compassion, joy, etc. Therefore being away from God means being away from all things that are good. As we can see by the people who openly say that they want to go to Hell, the people who go there send themselves there. Another reason Hell is a bad place is because it’s full of demons and wicked people. We can relate this to how a neighborhood is as good as the people who live in it.

 

[Calili]

Read Plato’s metaphysics and you will understand…

Plato’s metaphysics:

Perfect realm: made of ideas, are intangible, perfect and cannot be EXACTLY duplicated

Imperfect realm: Physical, tangible, imperfect derivative of the idea.

It’s not being about “lesser” creature.

After all, who is God? Is he the white-bearded man we see in paintings? Or is he something transcendent but something we cannot see but know exist (see perfect realm-imprefect realm)?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Ceaseless

**Even people he sends to hell because they didn’t believe. And I didn’t mean you literally call him “Master.” “Lord,” “Shepherd,” etc. **

God doesn’t have to send them to hell. They choose hell because they do not love God, or others, or themselves, or all of the above.

Learn some theology instead of sneering at God.

 

[raikou]

We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships,l but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.

If it is because of a narcissistic arrogance which the OP seems to suggest, then why did God assume our very nature by becoming man Himself in the person of Jesus Christ? Why did the Master become a servant to us by offering his life as a ransom for our redemption?

 

[Fomalhaut]

If it is because of a narcissistic arrogance which the OP seems to suggest, then why did God assume our very nature by becoming man Himself in the person of Jesus Christ? Why did the Master become a servant to us by offering his life as a ransom for our redemption?

I don’t know much about Holy Trinity theology, but for me, He was not really offering his life. The Son didn’t disappeared when Jesus died. It was there before, was there after. He took human form, had this human form to suffer and died, and went back at the right of the Father (again, is this correct ? I’m not sure.). This is personal opinion, I appreciate any comments.

 

[OxygenMan]

I don’t know much about Holy Trinity theology, but for me, He was not really offering his life. The Son didn’t disappeared when Jesus died. It was there before, was there after. He took human form, had this human form to suffer and died, and went back at the right of the Father (again, is this correct ? I’m not sure.). This is personal opinion, I appreciate any comments.

You’re right, Jesus took on a fully human form to suffer and die for us. But Jesus was still the Son as a human, so the Son did die and was then resurrected. But I don’t think He returned to the right hand of the Father until the assumption. I could be wrong about that, though.

 

[raikou]

God is infinitely perfect and blessed in himself. He is perfectly happy without us. But he freely chose to make creatures to communicate his goodness to them and to allow them to share in his happiness.

It is not God’s obligation to perfect us in every way. If He made us, it is OUR just obligation to thank him for our existence, whatever goods we have received from him.

Indeed, this world is a fallen one. There are a lot of imperfections. There is sickness. There is death. But it has been revealed that this was not what God originally planned. He placed man in paradise. But sin entered the world and man lost paradise as an inheritance. Mankind inherited the fallen state our first parents merited as their just sentence for their ingratitude towards God.

But God didn’t stop there. Out of compassion for the fallen man, he redeemed us so that we could be UNITED with him in heaven. He made us to become his CHILDREN. He became MAN himself and offered his life to save us. If this is not being treated like an EQUAL… If this is not HUMILITY, I don’t know what is.

Why would a loving God allow creatures to become as frail, as lowly, and as imperfect as man? This is really a deep mystery. But can we question him if GOD HAS BECOME MAN HIMSELF? I don’t think so. But let’s at least try to understand something from this mystery. If everything that God does and allows is for him to communicate his goodness to his creatures, then there must be something good that happened here. Let me enumerate some:

#1 By allowing man to suffer weakness and imperfection, God has allowed us realize more fully our utter dependece on Him. He has granted us a perfect opportunity to grow in HUMILITY.

#2 By creating lowly creatures as recipients of God’s blessings and graces, God has shown the depths of his MERCY. It is easier to be good towards the eminent, the powerful, the rich, and the respected, but it is harder to condescend and be good towards the lowly, the weak, the poor, and the nameless (at least for the proud). God has shown that he attends to us despite our lowliness.

#3 By assuming our lowly nature, God has manifested HIS OWN HUMILITY. He has emptied himself and he became a lowly servant to those who are even supposed to serve him.

But our lowly state is but temporary. In the end, God intends to elevate our nature and unite us to himself in heaven. That is, if we allow him to. If a man still ends up in hell after everything that God has done and given up for him, then it is his own fault. He must face the JUST consequence of his free choices.

 

[raikou]

I don’t know much about Holy Trinity theology, but for me, He was not really offering his life. The Son didn’t disappeared when Jesus died. It was there before, was there after. He took human form, had this human form to suffer and died, and went back at the right of the Father (again, is this correct ? I’m not sure.). This is personal opinion, I appreciate any comments.

When God the Son incarnated, he perfectly united his divinity with his humanity in the one person Jesus Christ. Theologians call this the hypostatic union. If I am not mistaken, whatever Jesus did as human can be ascribed to God, since only one person did it. So when Christ suffered and offered his life as man, it can be said that God really suffered and offered his life for us. But of course his divinity didn’t disappear throughout.

(Disclaimer: my interpretation of the hypostatic union seems correct according to this: newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm But if I am saying a heresy, pls. correct me.)

 

[grannymh]

If it is because of a narcissistic arrogance which the OP seems to suggest, then why did God assume our very nature by becoming man Himself in the person of Jesus Christ? Why did the Master become a servant to us by offering his life as a ransom for our redemption?

Why did the Master become a servant to us by offering his life as a ransom for our redemption?

In order for the first human person Adam to remain in God’s friendship, he, the creature, had to freely live in submission to his Creator. This unique and wonderful relationship was possible because Adam’s nature united both the material world and the spiritual world. Because of his rational, intellective spiritual soul, Adam (and each of us) was created in the image of God, a transcendent Pure Spirit. His destiny (and our destiny) was to live in eternal joy in the presence of the Beatific Vision. As St. Thomas Aquinas writes, the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (CCC 404; St. Thomas Aquinas, DeMalo 4,1.)

Adam let his trust in our Creator die in his heart and consequently he freely scorned our Creator. He preferred his will over God. He chose to disobey God against the requirements of his creaturely status. Adam shattered humanity’s relationship with divinity. This is known as the Original Sin.

The relationship between God and Adam was not one between equals. Therefore, the only person who could atone for the human sin against the divine Creator was a person who was both True God and True Man. God so loved us that the Second Person of the Trinity was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man for our salvation. In obedience to God the Father, Jesus Christ offered the ultimate gift of His life in reparation for humanity’s original disobedience through Adam.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Edit: Whoops. Never mind.

 

[Robert_Sock]

God is One and nothing exists besides Him. Therefore, God had to create us as lower, physical creatures.