Why would anybody condemn the Boy Scouts simply because they allow openly gay boys?

[Tarpeian]

Or a rabid antisemite.

I’m sure some would use character assassination against Saint John Chrysostom today, a common ploy used to attack the person not the substance of their position. He was against The Judaizer’'s. The masses have been conditioned to believe that any criticism about any Jew is anti-semitic. Another topic another thread. Thanks be to God we have Holy Mother Church. St. John Chrysostom pray for us.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[Tarpeian]

I don’t see anything wrong with allowing openly gay scouts unless by openly gay they mean someone who is gay and who is even “proud” of being gay and who says there is nothing wrong with the gay lifestyle. However, that is not how I understand it. From what I understand they do require scouts to live a morally upright life just as the Catholic Church does.

Holly, your exception is the rule. This is the point gays are openly gay and proud of it, this is the crux of the issue. I have yet to meet any gay who is saying their mea culpa’s. How you understand it, is not life experience. We are constantly barraged with, “it’s ok,” “I’m born this way,” “My God approves,” ad nauseam. You can’t turn on the T.V. without it being on every channel and commercial. You can’t go to the store without seeing two men, or two women holding hands or kissing each other. I live in a small “conservative” town and this is the reality. Show me one gay who is fighting against their disordered lifestyle, and I will go to bat for them anytime. Show me one!

The BSA language is a farce.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[meltzerboy]

Holly, your exception is the rule. This is the point gays are openly gay and proud of it, this is the crux of the issue. I have yet to meet any gay who is saying their mea culpa’s. How you understand it, is not life experience. We are constantly barraged with, “it’s ok,” “I’m born this way,” “My God approves,” ad nauseam. You can’t turn on the T.V. without it being on every channel and commercial. You can’t go to the store without seeing two men, or two women holding hands or kissing each other. I live in a small “conservative” town and this is the reality. Show me one gay who is fighting against their disordered lifestyle, and I will go to bat for them anytime. Show me one!

The BSA language is a farce.

Pax,
Tarpeian

So you actually believe that every gay boy (or girl) simply accepts their being gay without a struggle? That is NOT the reality of the situation. Many gay people, particularly young people, are disgusted to find out they have SSA and pray to G-d that they and He can change that attraction. Some go to therapy in an effort to change. Others try to hide their sexual feelings, while still others deny them. There are also those who do their best to live a chaste life in accord with their religious beliefs, at times ashamed of their sexual proclivity. Those who are more obviously gay due to their appearance or mannerisms suffer ridicule from their peers, sometimes to the point of attempting and committing suicide. In fact, among youth, gay adolescents have the highest rate of suicide, given their numbers. Gays who can “pass” often live in fear they will be “discovered” and ostracized by family and friends. The information you’ve gleaned comes from the more vocal gay advocates that appear on the media. These are hardly a reflection of the misery that many gay youth experience on a continual basis.

 

[fix]

Holly, your exception is the rule. This is the point gays are openly gay and proud of it, this is the crux of the issue. I have yet to meet any gay who is saying their mea culpa’s. How you understand it, is not life experience. We are constantly barraged with, “it’s ok,” “I’m born this way,” “My God approves,” ad nauseam. You can’t turn on the T.V. without it being on every channel and commercial. You can’t go to the store without seeing two men, or two women holding hands or kissing each other. I live in a small “conservative” town and this is the reality. Show me one gay who is fighting against their disordered lifestyle, and I will go to bat for them anytime. Show me one!

The BSA language is a farce.

Pax,
Tarpeian

Correct, but most will look at the policy on paper and think gee no big deal when in fact the application is anything but clear.

 

[gracepoole]

I’m sure some would use character assassination against Saint John Chrysostom today, a common ploy used to attack the person not the substance of their position. He was against The Judaizer’'s. The masses have been conditioned to believe that any criticism about any Jew is anti-semitic. Another topic another thread. Thanks be to God we have Holy Mother Church. St. John Chrysostom pray for us.

Pax,
Tarpeian

“But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts.”

– St. John Chrysostom

You are free to interpret this and his other quotes on Jews as you like. I would suggest that a deeper understanding of antisemitism and its definition might be helpful.

 

[gracepoole]

The best you can say based on the information you provided as I understand it is this…

It appears that the number sampled was 3013 adults…

pewresearch.org/2013/02/25/u-s-catholics-key-data-from-pew-research/#popsize

The number of Catholics in the USA appears to be 75,380,00. Therefore the sampling that is used for the % is 3013/75,380,000.

There is always an inherent bias in poll data.

You cannot say anything about the majority of Catholic beliefs because the sampling does not represent the majority of Catholics.

To be honest all you can say is that based on polling of less than a majority of Catholics data was obtained that is open to discussion as it concerns Catholic beliefs and you cannot state with certaintiy

That these numbers represent anything but the results of a Poll…

Polling from various areas would yield different results…and if you look here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=769113

**The Reformation for Secular Homosexual thinking **

If you did a Poll of Catholic members of the Catholic medical Association, Catholic Psychiatric Association, The American Academy of Pediatrics, Catholic Social Workers National Association, then I would imagine that the majority opinions as you have found them in these polls would be different…

your point above is incorrect and only indicates the results of a poll and more likely than not a believed bias you want to promote…you cannot state anything based on this poll with certainty other than you personal bias you wish to support with data from a Poll

Hgis

I’m not sure you understand how polling works.

I’m also not sure you understand how to spell the word “sigh.”

 

[yellowbird]

So you actually believe that every gay boy (or girl) simply accepts their being gay without a struggle? That is NOT the reality of the situation. Many gay people, particularly young people, are disgusted to find out they have SSA and pray to G-d that they and He can change that attraction. Some go to therapy in an effort to change. Others try to hide their sexual feelings, while still others deny them. There are also those who do their best to live a chaste life in accord with their religious beliefs, at times ashamed of their sexual proclivity. Those who are more obviously gay due to their appearance or mannerisms suffer ridicule from their peers, sometimes to the point of attempting and committing suicide. In fact, among youth, gay adolescents have the highest rate of suicide, given their numbers. Gays who can “pass” often live in fear they will be “discovered” and ostracized by family and friends. The information you’ve gleaned comes from the more vocal gay advocates that appear on the media. These are hardly a reflection of the misery that many gay youth experience on a continual basis.

This.

 

[shocktrooper]

“But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts.”

– St. John Chrysostom

You are free to interpret this and his other quotes on Jews as you like. I would suggest that a deeper understanding of antisemitism and its definition might be helpful.

The false faith of Rabbinic Judaism robs souls and is nothing more than a heresy. Judaism, as we know it in the OT and NT before Christ, is now called Catholicism. I think St. John Chrysostom is exactly right and is not an anti-Semite. Notice he did not speak of one Jew (person) here, but the synagogue which is associated with Rabbinic Judaism.

 

[meltzerboy]

The false faith of Rabbinic Judaism robs souls and is nothing more than a heresy. Judaism, as we know it in the OT and NT before Christ, is now called Catholicism. I think St. John Chrysostom is exactly right and is not an anti-Semite. Notice he did not speak of one Jew (person) here, but the synagogue which is associated with Rabbinic Judaism.

So-called Rabbinic Judaism is based almost entirely on the Judaism of the ancient Pharisees. There were synagogues at the time of the Temple. Jesus himself was a rabbi. The Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) are both believed by Orthodox Jews to be divinely inspired and always have been, even before the Talmud was codified. Catholicism of today is NOT Judaism of old.

 

[gracepoole]

The false faith of Rabbinic Judaism robs souls and is nothing more than a heresy. Judaism, as we know it in the OT and NT before Christ, is now called Catholicism. I think St. John Chrysostom is exactly right and is not an anti-Semite. Notice he did not speak of one Jew (person) here, but the synagogue which is associated with Rabbinic Judaism.

So-called Rabbinic Judaism is based almost entirely on the Judaism of the ancient Pharisees. There were synagogues at the time of the Temple. Jesus himself was a rabbi. The Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) are both believed to be divinely inspired by Orthodox Jews and always have been, even before the Talmud was codified. Catholicism of today is NOT Judaism of old.

:clapping:

 

[CopticChristian]

“But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts.”

– St. John Chrysostom

You are free to interpret this and his other quotes on Jews as you like. I would suggest that a deeper understanding of antisemitism and its definition might be helpful.

**
Contarini **Forum Master Join Date: June 4, 2004
Posts: 14,723
Religion: Christian (Episcopalian)

Re: John Chrysostom an anti-semite?

---

Most scholars who study ancient (or premodern generally) attitudes to Jews think that anti-Semitism is not a useful word to describe hostility to Jews. It creates confusion with modern, racial anti-semitism, as evidenced by Valke’s use of the word “racist.” Chrysostom’s hostility to Jews was based on the fact that Christians were going to Jewish services and thus, in his mind, betraying their loyalty to Christianity. It was a religious hostility and was not based on some idea of Jewish racial inferiority. In fact, Robert Wilken has concluded that Chrysostom’s remarks about the Jews were primarily rhetorical devices targeted at fellow Christians.

In my narrow use of the word “anti-Semite,” I have the Jewish scholar Paula Fredriksen on my side. I heard her defend this position just last weekend at AAR.

You certainly have some opinions. Have you read both translations of Chrysostoms work, Discourses Against Judaizing Christians? There are at least two translations. I have Harkins copy.

Here you persist in your notion that Chrysostom is anti-semitic and what that has to do with the BSA I have no idea.

In another thread you brought up your belief that the Vatican failed in the Holocaust

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10825065#post10825065

Re: I’m Gay, but I’m Not Switching to a Church That Supports Gay Marriage

I applaud those Catholics who resisted the Nazis! There were indeed many of them and they are all righteous individuals. But the Vatican itself could have done much, much more. This isn’t the point of this thread - but Catholics should be wary of dropping the Holocaust into conversation as a case-in-point if research hasn’t been done into what the Vatican failed to do during this period.

feel free to send me a private message re: the Holocaust and the Vatican. (Know in advance that I haven’t just “read” on this subject, however – it’s a major portion of my career. Calling my comments “claptrap,” then, is akin to questioning the expert scholars with whom I’ve studied – and you’re going to need plenty of credible evidence to make such a charge stick. This isn’t just a hobby for me or fodder for forum discussion.)

also unrelated…

You earlier said you spoke for the majority if Catholics when in fact you don’t.

What is it you want to say by offering these constant remarks? I would expect more from a college professor and academic adviser.

 

[CopticChristian]

So-called Rabbinic Judaism is based almost entirely on the Judaism of the ancient Pharisees. There were synagogues at the time of the Temple. Jesus himself was a rabbi. The Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) are both believed by Orthodox Jews to be divinely inspired and always have been, even before the Talmud was codified. Catholicism of today is NOT Judaism of old.

Meltz,

I agree that Rabbinical Judaism is based on Pharisees. You would agree that the history of Rabinnical Judaism has a more recent history. You would also agree that there are

Orthodox
Conservative
Liberal
Haredi

Jews to name a few. There are no animal Sacrifices nor are there temples or Ark. As far as Catholocism is considered, if we believe as Paul says that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages and the OT religion was a foreshadowing of the NT then there is a continuance and new understanding that as might be expected then and now differ from those that “had viels lifted” and those that did not.

This is not to say that you or anyone else has a viel blinding you, it is only in reference to Paul who did not necessarily convert to something new but understood what was Old in a New way…this is not my idea and has been discussed in detail by a Jewish Scholar, Alan Segal.

amazon.com/Paul-Convert-Apostolate-Apostasy-Pharisee/dp/0300052278

Paul the Convert: The Apostolate and Apostasy of Saul the Pharisee [Paperback]
Mr. Alan F. Segal.

Lurkers and others may be inspired to read this and quell the controversy and aid in understanding.

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltz,

I agree that Rabbinical Judaism is based on Pharisees. You would agree that the history of Rabinnical Judaism has a more recent history. You would also agree that there are

Orthodox
Conservative
Liberal
Haredi

Jews to name a few. There are no animal Sacrifices nor are there temples or Ark. As far as Catholocism is considered, if we believe as Paul says that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages and the OT religion was a foreshadowing of the NT then there is a continuance and new understanding that as might be expected then and now differ from those that “had viels lifted” and those that did not.

This is not to say that you or anyone else has a viel blinding you, it is only in reference to Paul who did not necessarily convert to something new but understood what was Old in a New way…this is not my idea and has been discussed in detail by a Jewish Scholar, Alan Segal.

amazon.com/Paul-Convert-Apostolate-Apostasy-Pharisee/dp/0300052278

Paul the Convert: The Apostolate and Apostasy of Saul the Pharisee [Paperback]
Mr. Alan F. Segal.

Lurkers and others may be inspired to read this and quell the controversy and aid in understanding.

You are correct, Coptic. Not everything remains the same in Judaism. However, it is believed by some Orthodox Jews that the rituals of the Temple will be restored during the Messianic era. Thanks for the link.

Anyhow, this is all unrelated to the BSA; a topic for another thread!

 

[gracepoole]

You certainly have some opinions. Have you read both translations of Chrysostoms work, Discourses Against Judaizing Christians? There are at least two translations. I have Harkins copy.

Here you persist in your notion that Chrysostom is anti-semitic and what that has to do with the BSA I have no idea.

In another thread you brought up your belief that the Vatican failed in the Holocaust

You know, you seem to have difficulty identifying who in a thread raises questions. I did not bring St. John Chrysostom into this conversation, and I didn’t bring the Holocaust into a previous thread on gay marriage. In both cases, I merely responded to those who did.

also unrelated…

You earlier said you spoke for the majority if Catholics when in fact you don’t.

What is it you want to say by offering these constant remarks? I would expect more from a college professor and academic adviser.

You also seem to have difficulty with reading the first comment about a subject in a thread. When I spoke about Catholics rejecting the view of homosexuality as a choice, I put it in parentheses with the disclaimer that I didn’t want to derail the thread. The only reason there are “constant remarks” about this topic is because you’ve kept it alive. Even the person whom I addressed in my original comments didn’t do so.

 

[CopticChristian]

You know, you seem to have difficulty identifying who in a thread raises questions. I did not bring St. John Chrysostom into this conversation, and I didn’t bring the Holocaust into a previous thread on gay marriage. In both cases, I merely responded to those who did.

You also seem to have difficulty with reading the first comment about a subject in a thread. When I spoke about Catholics rejecting the view of homosexuality as a choice, I put it in parentheses with the disclaimer that I didn’t want to derail the thread. The only reason there are “constant remarks” about this topic is because you’ve kept it alive. Even the person whom I addressed in my original comments didn’t do so.

:clapping:

reh fo em sdnimer stsop ruoy gnidaer dna cixelsyd si retsis yM

With that understanding let us both agree that your understanding of…

Judaism
Anit-semitism
The Vatican’s failure at the Holocaust

should be the topic of another thread you may choose to start.

 

[shocktrooper]

So-called Rabbinic Judaism is based almost entirely on the Judaism of the ancient Pharisees. There were synagogues at the time of the Temple. Jesus himself was a rabbi. The Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) are both believed by Orthodox Jews to be divinely inspired and always have been, even before the Talmud was codified. Catholicism of today is NOT Judaism of old.

God says different through His ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I did not expect you to agree and convert. I just wanted to put here on record what the Catholic Church teaches and always will.

Jews of any kind are NOT saved under a different covenant outside Jesus Christ.

Please offer a CATHOLIC teaching that disputes this! I am not interested in what your false man-made religion teaches, unless, of course, it aligns with the truth.

 

[gracepoole]

God says different through His ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I did not expect you to agree and convert. I just wanted to put here on record what the Catholic Church teaches and always will.

Jews of any kind are NOT saved under a different covenant outside Jesus Christ.

Please offer a CATHOLIC teaching that disputes this! I am not interested in what your false man-made religion teaches, unless, of course, it aligns with the truth.

Salvation for Jews
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=10688

 

[CopticChristian]

God says different through His ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I did not expect you to agree and convert. I just wanted to put here on record what the Catholic Church teaches and always will.

Jews of any kind are NOT saved under a different covenant outside Jesus Christ.

Please offer a CATHOLIC teaching that disputes this! I am not interested in what your false man-made religion teaches, unless, of course, it aligns with the truth.

Wow,

This is not a way to aid dialogue. Meltz is and has been a contributor on CAF for sometime. I am interested in much of what Meltz has to say. We agree sometimes, we disagree sometimes and what happens to either of our souls has not been relevant to discussions I have had with Meltz.

What the Church teaches is that those Circumcised of the heart/Baptized of the heart/those that are not in what we believe to be in the Covenant is not our call…

we are fellow co-workers sowing seed…we are not the farmer…we do not own the land…just a bunch of guys tending the field…working with others tending the same field looking at the field in a different way…

Meltz has no need to offer any Catholic teaching for anything. What he believes, what he lives, is what he believes and lives. He probably understands Catholic teaching as well as some Catholics.

**Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

Encourage your friend to investigate the true doctrine of the Catholic Church, and not to rely on what he believes to be Catholic teaching. I will be praying!**

from the thread posted by GP…I believe your promotion, your preaching, your encouragement is in need of some polishing…

May I ask you to consider a different approach.

 

[Robert_Sock]

God says different through His ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I did not expect you to agree and convert. I just wanted to put here on record what the Catholic Church teaches and always will.

Jews of any kind are NOT saved under a different covenant outside Jesus Christ.

Please offer a CATHOLIC teaching that disputes this! I am not interested in what your false man-made religion teaches, unless, of course, it aligns with the truth.

Sounds a bit moody and belligerent.

Remember that Jews are God’s chosen people and are the first to be saved:
*
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
-Romans 1:16*.

 

[gracepoole]

Wow,

This is not a way to aid dialogue. Meltz is and has been a contributor on CAF for sometime. I am interested in much of what Meltz has to say. We agree sometimes, we disagree sometimes and what happens to either of our souls has not been relevant to discussions I have had with Meltz.

What the Church teaches is that those Circumcised of the heart/Baptized of the heart/those that are not in what we believe to be in the Covenant is not our call…

we are fellow co-workers sowing seed…we are not the farmer…we do not own the land…just a bunch of guys tending the field…working with others tending the same field looking at the field in a different way…

Meltz has no need to offer any Catholic teaching for anything. What he believes, what he lives, is what he believes and lives. He probably understands Catholic teaching as well as some Catholics.

May I ask you to consider a different approach.

I’m sure you’re loathe to agree with anything I might say, Coptic (), but I fully agree with *you *here. Well said.