K
kimg901
Guest
By all means, please start a new one!
- Status
M
mathonihah
Guest
You guys are the ones who are asking the questions; so perhaps you are the ones who should start the thread.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I think it speaks for itself.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Stephen168
New member
No, just a rational answer to one question. See post 128.
S
SteveVH
Guest
Unless one considers that the “Great Apostasy” is the one legged stool on which Mormonism either stand or falls, which should be a huge consideration for one considering joining the faith. That being said, we have had numerous discussions on the so-called apostasy, though not with the current Mormon posters.
M
mathonihah
Guest
As the highlighted passage shows, that was a reference to what it calls the “professors”. It means the ministers, preachers, activists of the respective churches; not the churches themselves. It refers to those who were trying to “build up churches unto themselves,” as the Lord has said elsewhere. By “their creeds” is also meant the same thing. It is referring to those “professors,” not the churches themselves. And interestingly, they were all Protestant churches, not Catholic. The Catholic Church itself was a persecuted minority in America in those days.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
I can’t imagine a Catholic becoming a Mormon or JW, (unless perhaps they never really went to Church, but were only baptized into it). There are too many beautiful rituals, sacraments and beauty in the Catholic Church, for one to want go and worship in a sterile environment like the places Mormons and JWs worship. They don’t even have windows in their houses of worship (much less stained-glass windows!) Their leaders wear business suits, not robes. They are more like a business meetings, full of testimonials and lectures. They would NEVER appeal to me.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
And yet you totally ignore the information I gave you earlier. I take it you have no defenae
T
Tweedle_Dee
Guest
+1 I grew up Mormon and still attend with my family about 1/2 the time and completely agree with this assessment. I’ll add that the 5 minutes before Sacrament meeting many people are scrambling around trying to take care of small matters of business in the chapel rather than preparing themselves for taking the sacrament and showing respect for the occasion. It drives me crazy.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I profess the same Creed that mainline Protestants profess.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/credo.htm
elca.org/What-We-Believe/Statements-of-Belief/The-Nicene-Creed.aspx
confessingumc.org/our-story/resources/historical-documents/united-methodist-hymnal-the-nicene-creed-and-the-apostles-creed/
faithtacoma.org/doctrine/nicene.aspx
What is a church, in a Christian context, but the baptized? We are the Body of Christ, and Jesus is our Head. You should understand, the part in the creed about “One Holy Catholic church”, includes ALL baptized Christians, not just Catholics or any singular Protestant denomination. It’s all of us. We are the living stones of Christ’s Church.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
The Mormons, and the Jehovah Witnesses in particular, are experts at demolishing and ridiculing one’s previous religion. They know exactly how to tear down your previous faith, especially if you aren’t well catechized, which most Catholics aren’t, and a lot of Protestants as well. Then, into that void, they insert their religion. The victims readily grasp at the replacement religion, quite unaware of what they are getting into. If only they really knew at the outset!
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
I’ve gone through the lessons with Mormon missionaries (my mother had become LDS) and very little was taught of their history. I was surprised when they thought I was ready to be baptized, because I had already known a lot of Mormon theology, and they hadn’t covered it all yet. I believe a lot of Mormons really haven’t been taught the extent of their Church’s teachings. I know my mom hadn’t.
That may be somewhat true of the Catholic Church as well, since it was when I was confronted for the first time with Jehovah’s Witnesses that I studied and discovered the depth of Catholicism that I hadn’t know before.
P
paul_r
Guest
I have a copy of the Mormon Bible, and various other bibles. I find it very interesting how what Smith wrote:they still teach that?
Jesus was here in the USA before going to the middle east. He was a Native American, and this along with most of the other things defy logic.
I do not agree with all in the King James Bible, but there is material to back up most of it and geological evidence as well. There was a great flood many years ago, and it is in Sumarian, Roman, Greek and other texts, not just the bible.
Also there is reason for Eve to have been created from Adams rib, that is because women have one more rib than men do. That story explains this…
There are many other examples from other religions that predate Christanity that do show what is in the Holy Bible to be correct, even though there were books left out that were well known. The main reason that I can see they were left out, is not only is the material from a different prespective, to the uneducated it would create confusion.
I’ve found it interesting lately with both the Mormons and the JW’s that they really do not want to talk to white people that speak English much anymore in the Orange County area of Southern California, they are looking for people that speak Spanish now days. I’ve always found their questions at the door annoying, such as about the 144,000, and other things that they could figure out if they could just read and understand the bible. It is not rocket science, or anything else that is complicated enough to get my attention.
The part about the planets and many other things are posted on YouTube, and there is even a good episode on South Park about the Mormons (dumb dumb dumb dumb). Keep in mind that Joseph Smith was a Mason that created a new religion. Also others have been part of other religions and started new ones, such as L Ron Hubbard, it was started on a bet in a coffee shop, and I know someone that was a good friend of someone that was there the day that it occured. Also L Ron Hubbard was not only a Science Fiction writer, but a member of OTO, and this was started by Alister Crowley, that did it as an act of rebelion against the religion of his mother (the Plymoth Brethern).
Also JW’s religion was started by Judges here in the USA, that is the reason for the black robes. Each religion has interesting stories behind them. However I do not pass judgement on others due to their faith, the most important thing is if their faith works for them to improve their life and the lives of others around them. Judge not or less thee be judged is what I follow by, basically do not judge others or they will judge you, and also part of that is we are in our mind playing the part of God, by assuming what God sees as wrong as the same as our judgement. We are not God, we have the Bible as a guide, but we can’t know what God is thinking.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Fair enough. Maybe God did restore the Church. But now the question arises, if it apostasized once, why can it not apostasize again? If God could not keep His Church from straying the first time, why should we think He can keep it from straying the second time? In fact, how do we know that it already hasn’t? There are a number of groups split off from the church begun by Joseph Smith (and God), so which one has not apostasized, if any?
That’s my philosophical difficulty with the idea of the whole Church straying.
M
mathonihah
Guest
That is a good question. But as I said, I don’t want to derail this thread by turning it into an “apostasy” thread. If you guys think that is important, start a new thread, and we will talk about it there.
E
eddie_too
Guest
at least mormons and we catholics can agree that we do not worship the same God; and, we do not worship the same Jesus.
let that be the starting point in all dialogue between mormons and catholics.
catholics receive their beliefs from their ancestors who lived at the same time as Jesus. mormons received their beliefs from an angelic (satanic) visitor to a single man in the 18940s.
i completely understand and accept that many mormons sincerely believe that joseph smith’s visitor was benevolent. however, sincerity does not necessarily produce truth. there is no concrete evidence that the angelic visitor was benevolent. that is a belief without any supporting evidence. in fact, the available evidence (the ethereal spirit’s words) indicates that the visitor’s origin was malevolent. we can deduce this from the fact that the visitor’s primary purpose was to destroy the faith that had been passed down to many generations, millions of people, from prior generations over the preceding 1800 years.
let that be the starting point in all dialogue between mormons and catholics.
catholics receive their beliefs from their ancestors who lived at the same time as Jesus. mormons received their beliefs from an angelic (satanic) visitor to a single man in the 18940s.
i completely understand and accept that many mormons sincerely believe that joseph smith’s visitor was benevolent. however, sincerity does not necessarily produce truth. there is no concrete evidence that the angelic visitor was benevolent. that is a belief without any supporting evidence. in fact, the available evidence (the ethereal spirit’s words) indicates that the visitor’s origin was malevolent. we can deduce this from the fact that the visitor’s primary purpose was to destroy the faith that had been passed down to many generations, millions of people, from prior generations over the preceding 1800 years.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
But without the apostasy, there would be no mormonism for anyone to join, or need to join.
The apostasy is very much connected with this subject, and is not a derailment.
Nice dodge though.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
So, if this is true, we have a problem.
Smith’s so called first vision happened in 1820. Why did he try to join the Methodist Church in 1828
Doesn’t that spark something about his credibility? After all, he is your founding prophet.
Let’s also consider that along with the various versions, the first vision wasn’t taught for 22 years.
Unfortunately, facts like this are what cause people to study their way out of mormonism, or prevent them from joining at all.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
Speaking of Methodists, what do Mormons have against grape juice? Methodists offer little cubes of bread and grape juice for their communion, but Mormons only offer bread and water.
T
TheIrishman
Guest
This is a good point to make. To me, a testimony is not just soley based off an internal feeling but by the facts and traditions that you pointed out. All of that together should make up ones testimony.
Also, I feel like God is not trying to trick anyone when it comes to religion. If you study the bible and use your god-given ability to reason, doctrines should be easily understood and taught. When one doubts or cannot answer a question about their faith, it’s either because they don’t know the facts behind it or there are no facts behind it.
Although we can always just turn to God and ask him in faith which way to go
- Status