Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

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twopekinguys said:
It has been demonstrated that mormonisms presupposition of an apostasy is wrong. It is simply based on scripture that Christ himself said he would never leave his Church.

Therefore, mormonism cannot be a restoration since Christ did not leave his Church.

Of course, you convieniently ignored that when I posted it earlier. Just like several other posts.

Couple that with some of your juvenile comments, you are proving that you are not here to engage in meaningful conversation and debate. For example:

Don’t you hate it when you can’t drive, or manipulate the conversation because the facts get in your way?
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lol 👍
 
zaffiroborant said:
Since you have provided no context I see no reason to accept your assertion.
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It was a matter of just looking it up:

“Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
“I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
“It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
“We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this, too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife’s father’s family (under Divine providence), who had become very friendly to me, and who were opposed to mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay. (JS–H 1:21–23, 75)
 
TexanKnight said:
as long as we agree that he had many versions of an alleged first vision and that most were very different, we have no argument at all.

Because we all know that when a man has that many versions of an event, he is not truthful.

thanks
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Which is utterly irrelevant to the question he had asked, and consequently the reply that I had given. And BTW, I don’t accept that the different accounts are contradictory— which is beside the point.
 
twopekinguys said:
Don’t you hate it when you can’t drive, or manipulate the conversation because the facts get in your way?
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Agreed. When a Mormon gets backed into a corner for lack of facts and truth, his responses always become one of three things:

“Nope, not gonna answer that.”

or,

“Nope, not relevant.”

or,

“Nope, you’re ignoring the evidence.” To which he replies, when pressed for that evidence, with:

“Nope, not gonna answer that.”

:o It’s getting a little painful to watch.
 
mathonihah said:
Ditto. If you keep making nonsensical comments, there will be no further need to reply to your posts.
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I do not blame you.

Non oif my statements have been nonsensical, you make claims, when pressed, you dodge. I know too much about the LDS Church for your tastes. Most Mormons who come here end up like you…making claims they cannot support and unable to respond to facts, so they stop replying to those they know they cannot stump or fool.

I hope you either stop making claims, or be prepared to back them up.

And don;t run away…it makes you look bad
 
mathonihah said:
Nonsensical comment. No reply needed.
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No…it is not nonsensical.

You claimed restoration.,

I showed that NONE of the writers ever mentioned the existence of the things you allegedly restored.

So, you do the LDS thing…“it is nonsensical” and retreat.

Someday, a Mormon might show up here who does NOT do that…
 
mathonihah said:
Which is utterly irrelevant to the question he had asked, and consequently the reply that I had given. And BTW, I don’t accept that the different accounts are contradictory— which is beside the point.
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lol…it corrected what you said…so it was relevant.

And the only way you can say they do not contradict is to never have read them.

When some say different ages, they contradict.

When some say 1 person appeared, others say 2, others say 2 and angels…they contradict.

When they differ on what the alleged god said to him, they contradict.

So, go read them.
 
Lochias said:
Agreed. When a Mormon gets backed into a corner for lack of facts and truth, his responses always become one of three things:

“Nope, not gonna answer that.”

or,

“Nope, not relevant.”

or,

“Nope, you’re ignoring the evidence.” To which he replies, when pressed for that evidence, with:

“Nope, not gonna answer that.”

:o It’s getting a little painful to watch.
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to me it is just funny. I make little bets on how many posts until we get the typical “nonsensical, no reply” or the “that was irrelevant” etc.

But then, I am easily amused
 
mathonihah said:
If you examine more carefully how the term “professors of religion” is used in the context of JS–H, it becomes clear that it refers to the priests, ministers, preachers, and activists of the respective religions, not the mere adherents.
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I don’t see how this view is any less offensive (if that is your point). ALL the baptized are Christ’s Church, including our clergy.
 
i think we should all accept that most mormons are sincere in their beliefs. facts, reason and logic are not going to sway people fully committed to unsupportable beliefs. there is no sense in taunting or even challenging such people. however, there is good reason to expose the lack of evidence, reason and logic absent from belief systems.

remember, mormons and catholics do not believe in the same God and do not believe in the same Jesus Christ. that is the message we need to send to our fellow catholics who might come under aggressive evangelization by mormons.

the mormon god is finite, mortal and limited in power and knowledge.

catholic’s God is infinite, eternal and unlimited in power and knowledge.

the mormon Jesus is a creature. the catholic Jesus is the Creator of all things, visible and invisible.

the differences between the mormon god and the true God, between the mormon Jesus and the real Jesus cannot be more stark.

so, preface every discussion of mormonism with those simple facts. mormons do not worship the same God that catholics worship. mormons do not follow the same Jesus that catholics follow.

by doing this, we can at least have the beginnings of a fruitful engagement with the mormon proselytizers. in fact, we catholics as well as our priests should regularly educated our fellow catholics on these two simple, but essential, distinctions between the mormon system of belief and catholicism.

this is not to ignore the multitude of unsupportable nonsense promulgated by the mormons. it is simply to save time and energy when confronting the mormon proselytiszers.

if someone needs additional information, it is always useful to point out that the mormons teach that the Church Jesus founded did not succeed but failed despite Jesus’ promise to be with it until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

the mormons teach that Jesus left millions of His followers without the truth for over 1800 years.

the mormons teach that it makes sense to restore a church that was a failure.

the old rule of KISS, “keep it simple stupid” is useful for catholics when engaging in a discussion of the LDS church.

we can overwhelm people by providing detail after detail and fact after fact about how nonsensical the mormon faith is.

keep in mind that we are not going to dissuade devout mormons. our primary mission is to keep the poison that is mormonism from damaging the Mystical Body of Christ
 
mathonihah said:
As you should know, Mormonism teaches that many “plain and precious” passages were remove from the NT scriptures. One purpose of the Restoration has been to restore some of those lost doctrines. So the Restoration means more than just making everything look more like the Bible.
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Doesn’t change the fact that Mormonism is a religion of innovation.
 
mathonihah said:
It was a matter of just looking it up:

“Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
“I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
“It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
“We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this, too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife’s father’s family (under Divine providence), who had become very friendly to me, and who were opposed to mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay. (JS–H 1:21–23, 75)
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There is good reason to be indignant at JS claims. There also is no reason for anyone to accept the private revelation of Smith. Lot’s of reasons to question the veracity of his claims.

There are also good reasons that JS was “persecuted”. He was a grifter. Criminals are “persecuted” every day in the U.S.
 
mathonihah said:
That is an absurd, ridiculous, and nonsensical reply to my post. I was responding to his post expressing ignorance of what JS–H meant; not how many different versions of the First Vision are in existence.
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mathonihah said:
I think I know whom I worship better than you do.
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mathonihah said:
You don’t know what you are talking about. Read the thread before posting.
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Frustrated much? So im ignorant now? I know a little about mormonism so watch the way you type to me. And again, im sorry, but you do not know who you worship. Speaking of, why do you (and other lds) put so much faith into smith? He was nothing more than a man. Ill give you some credit for the last quote, I didnt read everything. But from what you had posted I dont need to read all the posts because it was clear. Now can you answer (or at least try 🤷) the rest of my posts that I see you skipped?
 
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