Why would EF be considered less social?

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HomeschoolDad said:
With the OF, there isn’t the same sense of “common cause”, in that attending the TLM entails a deliberate choice, and it is often inherently counter-cultural.
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It is true.
Many people with too much opinions sometimes.
Some even a bit anti-Novus ordo.
But most people seem ok.
 
jesusmademe said:
But it is easier for me to sing above my speaking range. Speaking range is heavier and less head voice. Most people are afraid of it.
This is why keys are so low.
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Sing a descant.

Have you considered possibly getting some voice lessons to improve your ability to sing in a lower range?

I agree with you if the organist/pianist is really transposing a hymn down into the netherworld! But most pianists/organists I know are not able to transpose on the fly (unless the instrument has that Happy Button that does it for us!). So I’m guessing that most of them are playing the hymn in the key in which it’s written, and the people who put hymnals together generally stick with a range that doesn’t generally go higher than the D or E above C.

If you check out older hymnals, you’ll find that many of the hymns climbed higher into the stratosphere–we did one a few weeks ago at a Protestant church that I play for that ended on a high A! (You would have loved it, and I wish you had been there to sing it for us!). Many of these older hymnals have a range that range up to the F above C, and have a lot of the melody hanging around the A above middle C, which is a “break” for many of the lower voices.

But those older hymnals aren’t used anymore because the publishers have apparently discovered that many people can’t hit those notes anymore. Tough for you and others in the same boat, but good for the majority of people who have about a 5 note range thanks to terrible music education in the schools and parents who have allowed them to grow up listening almost exclusively to pop or rock music only.

So again, consider taking a few voice lessons to try to develop your lower range. Take the hymnal along and tell the teacher that your goal is to be able to comfortably sing the hymns done at your parish. You’ll enjoy yourself and feel more comfortable during the hymns.
 
Peeps said:
Have you considered possibly getting some voice lessons to improve your ability to sing in a lower range?
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But singing down to Bb is extremely hard for me.
C# would be good for Silent Night.
It would be easier if people started using head voice. That is one of the problems I have with congregational singing.
I am wondering if it is easier if I only sang with trained singers…but even trained singers are afraid of head voice.
Are keys too low because people disslike head voice or are there other reasons?
Are you sure older hymns went up to high A?
In opera high A is the high note for the baritones.
 
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jesusmademe said:
But singing down to Bb is extremely hard for me.
C# would be good for Silent Night.
It would be easier if people started using head voice. That is one of the problems I have with congregational singing.
I am wondering if it is easier if I only sang with trained singers…but even trained singers are afraid of head voice.
Are keys too low because people disslike head voice or are there other reasons?
Are you sure older hymns went up to high A?
In opera high A is the high note for the baritones.
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You ask some good questions.

I think most people who haven’t had any formal music training don’t know what the head voice is or how to use it. So that’s the answer to your question about why people don’t use their head voice to sing the higher notes.

I agree with you that almost everyone should be able to sing at least the D above C (not middle C, the higher C above that).

But again, if they haven’t been taught how to sing, and if they attended public schools (and many private schools, too, sadly), they may not have been taught to use a head voice.

As you have noticed, not knowing how to sing head voice means that people are singing in their chests, and this limits them to a lower range.

It’s too bad, but it’s the way things are. I suggest that you sing out with joy, doing a higher-pitched descant if you are able to improvise it on the fly, and I assure you that all the people around you will love hearing a sublime singer doing the beautiful hymns (and even the hymns that aren’t so beautiful, too!). A beautiful voice can make even the less-than beautiful hymns sound lovely.

I wish I could tell you that your Music and Liturgy Director would be willing to conduct a “voice training” class for all interested members of the parish who want to learn to sing correctly and develop a larger range. Chances are good that if he/she did offer such a class, very few people would show up, and it would probably be the people who already know how to sing and just want to improve.

But as I said earlier, you could try taking a few lessons from a voice teacher in your area with the goal of trying to develop more of your lower range. Not sure if it will work–depends on your anatomy. If you have shorter, more delicate vocal chords, you’ll probably never be able to reach those low notes. But that’s OK–use the voice God gave you and bring joy to others.

I hope this is helpful.
 
jesusmademe said:
I have been told that the EF is less social than the OF. Now, of course, this doesn’t mean that going to the OF is a social thing like going to coffe after Mass.
I have attended both forms but it was some years ago that I went to the EF.
Why would EF be considered less social?
I might need to add that a Priest told me it could be felt as less social.
What are your experiences?
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I’m my experience it’s WAY less social. But maybe that’s because around here it seems to attract introverts. And the women all dress differently from me (I dress modestly but don’t cover my elbows and I know our local EF community women insist on covered elbows. I was invited to their mom’s group at the local [public] park… but only if my knees, elbows, and collar bone were covered. I didn’t go. I like to wear [modest] shorts and a t-shirt when I’m hugely pregnant in the middle of summer.) The OF mom’s Group would never tell me what to wear to a park play date. Hence I feel they’re more social.
 
Peeps said:
not middle C, the higher C above that).
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The high C for tenors! Sounds too high. If men sing it wouldn’t sound good if they were not trained. You think a tenor high c should be easy for everyone?
 
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Yes, all of these ranges can hit the D. See this note range chart.
 
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I can hit high C but i doesn’t sound as good as F# below high C
 
jesusmademe said:
I can hit high C but i doesn’t sound as good as F# below high C
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With voice training we can expand and strengthen our range. It will have limits for most of us though. Its advisable not to sing a note just because you can hit it, both for the integrity of your voice and that of ears around it!

Anyways , music in church is not about the individual’s talent. It is about the group. We are worshipping God. Look at the examples in the Old Testament, In Exodus the women sang and played instruments in thanks for being led out of Egypt and slavery. David rejoiced and processed with the Ark, singing , dancing and playing instruments. There is no talk here of only the most gifted trained people worshipping God in song.
 
As much as I love it…

Fewer people go to the EF…
Fewer people speak Latin…
It’s less understandable than the Ordinary Form…
The people in attendance at EF’s are often (or can be)Traditionalists with jaded or outdated views…

The last one will ruffle feathers, but, while it is true we can and should put everything in God’s hands, we also have to assume responsibility for our own individual lives in modern society with respect to God.

If a family (who didnt speak or understand Latin) just sat in a pew watching a nice TLM, listening to Gregorian chant, and so on… while their kids climbed and struggled to sit still (for lack of something relatable to do)… overall - the mass, scripture and so on would lose a lot of its relevance… all they would have would really be the Eucharist to receive, which is great, but - since they would not have learned much - they wouldn’t be able to apply it to their own life… The relevance would get lost in their inability to respond to what most people wont and cant understand…

The more ordinary form of any Catholics life today is someone who lives in a society where Latin and Gregorian Chants are not the norm; and, therefore, there is need to be able to relate the scripture to their lives when dealing with other people, including non-Catholics, who also normally dont speak Latin.

The principles we learn from Latin, as a dead language, are important, and they are preserved in the Latin - as they should be…
 
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According to some people the nature of man changes through time either because of or coincident with technology. I find some people to be rather absurd.
 
In regards to the Mass itself, I can see why the EF can be viewed by some as less social. The parts of the Mass are reserved for the priest and the altar server (interceding on behalf of the people). Many of the priest’s prayers are said in a low, inaudible voice. Therefore, there is much less external participation of the laity. The EF Mass is much less of a dialogue between the priest and the people, so some would view it more as the priest doing his own thing while the people sit idly by.

Not that I necessarily agree with this assessment, but that is certainly how some people would view it.
 
jesusmademe said:
The high C for tenors! Sounds too high. If men sing it wouldn’t sound good if they were not trained. You think a tenor high c should be easy for everyone?
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As a tenor, I have to hit a high A. It’s certainly not easy. I think most guys could hit the high C, although low basses would probably have a hard time.
 
So what is your point?

And - please note - I didnt say the TLM wasn’t valid at all… nor did I show it any disrespect…

The OP’s question wasn’t one of validity, but one of sociability… and the TLM simply isnt as social because it isnt as relatable due to the fat that so many people dont understand the language…

Traditionalists will almost always lament this fact - and not always rightly so…

But - the reality is - a mass is a sacrifice - and God demands mercy more than he does a sacrifice… In terms of the mass itself, if someone doesn’t understand a sacrificial blessing, then the religious must (at least to some extent) go to the other persons level in order to show the other person the mercy inherent in the first commandment… That is just the nature of accurate evangelization, which reaches out to sinners, as well as those in the schola…
 
Jen7 said:
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jesusmademe:
I have been told that the EF is less social than the OF. Now, of course, this doesn’t mean that going to the OF is a social thing like going to coffe after Mass.
I have attended both forms but it was some years ago that I went to the EF.
Why would EF be considered less social?
I might need to add that a Priest told me it could be felt as less social.
What are your experiences?
Click to expand...
I’m my experience it’s WAY less social. But maybe that’s because around here it seems to attract introverts. And the women all dress differently from me (I dress modestly but don’t cover my elbows and I know our local EF community women insist on covered elbows. I was invited to their mom’s group at the local [public] park… but only if my knees, elbows, and collar bone were covered. I didn’t go. I like to wear [modest] shorts and a t-shirt when I’m hugely pregnant in the middle of summer.) The OF mom’s Group would never tell me what to wear to a park play date. Hence I feel they’re more social.
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Yes, this sounds like the quirks of your local EF mass community and not an universal characteristic.
 
Jen7 said:
(I dress modestly but don’t cover my elbows and I know our local EF community women insist on covered elbows. I was invited to their mom’s group at the local [public] park… but only if my knees, elbows, and collar bone were covered. I didn’t go.
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Yeah, while modesty is good, I think some people can go a little over the top in their requirements. I personally wouldn’t like being lectured on what to wear unless I was being completely inappropriate or immodest in how I dress.
 
MiserereMeiDei said:
According to some people the nature of man changes through time either because of or coincident with technology. I find some people to be rather absurd.
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You didnt even have the guts to address the person to whom you cast the stone by name.

But since I referred to code and you are prevaricating via insinuating something… you sound like one of those people in the Bible who like to murmur, while you s behind a computer failing to see the beam in your own…

If you had actually paid any attention to your handle’s namesake - you probably wouldn’t be murmuring or casting aspersions… In fact, I seriously doubt you paid any attention to what I actually said, which was not in contradiction to the immutability or God or the meaning of dead languages…

It only underscores the notion of a traditionalist being at a disconnect from reality.
 
In being the “Extraordinary Form” now, it also tends to appeal to people on the fringe - as if it were somehow more exotic than something that has been effectively in practice all along.

A lot of the younger folks are attracted to it for this reason.

It usually seems to draw eccentrics who want to somehow differentiate themselves, like the pharisee who was glad not to be the ta collector…

Its great that people want to do great things for God… It’s also profoundly sad when they think they’re doing everything right, only to miss the mark completely by striving for obscurity…
 
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