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Elf01
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I did specify canonically regular. When the SSPX has that state it will be a good option for those who like the EF. Until then I would look for an EF Mass without those problems.
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phil19034
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I agree that it’s best to avoid the SSPX. And I would surely try to convince anyone to attend a Latin Mass in full communion with Rome instead of the SSPX.Aquinas11:
I did specify canonically regular. When the SSPX has that state it will be a goid option for those who like the EF. Until then I would look for an EF Mass without those problems.
However, I will not automatically assume the worst of the SSPX priests, sisters, third order members and laity who attend their chapels.
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Peeps
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You know, I don’t think I would say “eccentrics.”
I think people just have different personalities, styles, preferences, likes and dislikes, tastes, etc.
E.g., I hate coffee. And I don’t drink alcohol. These two personality traits could possibly be considered “eccentric” or at the very least, not mainstream. Top it off with my constant consumption of Diet Coke (at least 6 16 oz. bottles every day, often more)–and you have a real nut case here!
And that’s OK! No one is hurt by my consumption of Diet Coke.
And in the same way, some people prefer the Latin Mass, the more smells and bells, the better for them! Others prefer the Praise and Worship Masses done at some parishes, with a rock band and a cantor who sings like Adam Lambert! And still others perfer to avoid Masses with any kind of music.
And that’s OK!
Problems arise when we all try to convince others that OUR PREFERENCE is the BEST, and that they should all wise up and get on board!
Think about it–what would people do if I tried to convince them to give up coffee and alcohol and drink nothing but Diet Coke? And what would I do if people tried to convince me to give up Diet Coke and start drinking coffee and beer? (Actually, people do try this with me, and they get nowhere!).
I have no problem at all with discussion about why we prefer our Mass type, or drink or music style, or whatever the discussion is about. I think it’s interesting to learn why others like a certain coffee house or brewery, or why they enjoy our Latin Mass parish rather than my parish’'s contemporary Mass on Sunday evening.
I just don’t want to be told that their way is the BEST WAY and that all other ways should go away forever. It’s not only incorrect according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but also, it makes for a very unfriendly and unloving atmosphere, and this is not likely to convince non-believers and fallen-away believers to believe in Jesus if they see so much animosity over something as unimportant as a language or a music style or a veil.
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Elf01
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Replace the diet coke with regular and you have me. Although I really should drink less of it.
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stpurl
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Believe it or not, studies from the AMA are showing you’re actually better off in the long run drinking ‘sugary’ drinks than drinking diet soda (although too much sugar has its own health risks).
However, life has its own surprises. Picture the people in Flint, MI, or the many people in the Northeast of late years who have found their water supplies tainted by chemicals. These people who drank ‘good old tap water’ while others drank sody-pop and bottled drinks now are suffering huge health issues when by all rights their healthy habits should have been reaping benefits. You just never know.
However, life has its own surprises. Picture the people in Flint, MI, or the many people in the Northeast of late years who have found their water supplies tainted by chemicals. These people who drank ‘good old tap water’ while others drank sody-pop and bottled drinks now are suffering huge health issues when by all rights their healthy habits should have been reaping benefits. You just never know.
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ProVobis
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It’s a good thing these priests don’t take the acronym personally.
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rangerdillon
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I attend the EF. The Latin Mass Society is frequently holding lunches and other get togethers outside of Mass.
One thing that some not familiar with the TLM might notice is that there is no hand holding during the Pater Noster. The Sign of Peace is also not done in this Mass. Perhaps that is what they are talking about.
I have personally noticed that those attending the Latin Mass in my parish are very friendly people.
One thing that some not familiar with the TLM might notice is that there is no hand holding during the Pater Noster. The Sign of Peace is also not done in this Mass. Perhaps that is what they are talking about.
I have personally noticed that those attending the Latin Mass in my parish are very friendly people.
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Peeps
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I consider this a “weakness” in the EF Mass.
If you know the Bible, you know that making peace with your fellow Christians before approaching the altar with your gift (in the case of the Mass, our “gift” is our lives) was Jesus’ command to us. We are not to receive Holy Communion if we have something against “our brother” or if “our brother” has something against us. We are to “make peace.” The Sign of Peace is not just a “howdy-do” greeting time, but actually a reminder of this very important commandment.
When Christians ignore Christ’s command to “make peace”, their faith suffers and dwindles, and many Christians end up falling away from their relationship with Jesus and with the Church. The devil rejoices when Christians bear grudges, carry burdens of resentment, and stubbornly refuse to make amends or “peace” with those they have offended or who have offended them.
So IMO, the the Sign of Peace is an extremely important reminder to us to have no ill will towards anyone, and to try to make sure that no one bears ill will against us. Our very relationship with Jesus and His Church is at stake here.
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rangerdillon
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Peace is made in many parts of both forms, especially in the Blessed Sacrament.
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MiserereMeiDei
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That would be a command to make amends with a specific brother for a specific wrong, not a command to wave to people across the nave. Waving to people is not sufficient and we are not all guilty of wronging our brethren on a daily basis. Some people not at all. This is merely a poor substitute for socialization.
ralfyman
New member
Pope Benedict XVI argues that the OF and the EF are one and the same rite. He also wrote the ff.
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ProVobis
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It’s done at a Solemn EF. Among the clergy only.
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ProVobis
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I understand a priest can omit the peace exchange at an OF.
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jesusmademe
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Why are seminaries not teaching what they should teach?
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Peeps
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The Sign of Peace is a “reminder” or “symbol” of what Christians should do when they become aware of a rift between themselves and someone else.
In many Protestant churches during Holy Communion (I know you don’t care, but hear me out here), the pastor will remind people of the need to make peace before receiving Holy Communion–and people will literally step out from their seats and walk up to someone else in the room, and the two of them will step out and talk things over, apologize, and usually make peace with each other BEFORE coming back and receiving Communion. (Communion services in many Protestant churches are much much longer than the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Catholic Mass).
I’ve seen this all my life in Protestant churches, and was impressed at an early age with the need to make sure that all is well between me and others before receiving.
In fact, I own a few Catholic school readers (school textbooks) and one of the little stories is about a boy who steals a knife from a friend (yes, there was a time when little boys carried pocket knives!), and he is convicted of his sin and goes to his friend to make amends and return the knife, then goes to Confession before attending Mass. So Catholic churches have taught the importance of making peace, too, even before Vatican 2 (this textbook was written in the early 1960s).
Again, the Sign of Peace is symbolic, but a powerful symbol nevertheless. In my other post, I made it clear that it’s not a “howdy do” time, or a time to walk around the nave and hug people–it’s a time to make sure that we are at peace with all people before receiving Eucharist.
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Peeps
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Yes, of course. But I haven’t seen this happen very often.
I think that many priests know about the rifts and feuds in their parish, and it grieves them, just as it grieves the Holy Spirit.
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MagdalenaRita
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It is not a “weakness” of the EF Mass. The Sacrament of Penance is how Catholics make peace or reconcile with our fellow Catholics before approaching the altar.
More than likely the people we are sitting next to at Mass are not the ones we have a rift with in life, so you are right the sign of peace is a gesture or reminder of making peace with our fellow man.
On the other hand, when going to the Sacrament of Penance, we are through God’s grace truly reconciled to Him and the whole Church, and that would include our fellow Catholics.
Prior to the changes in the liturgy, more people went to confession prior to receiving the Eucharist, so in that way, it wasn’t just a reminder but an actual making peace. (of course you can always go to that person outside of Mass to reconcile if there is someone you need to do that with)
I’m also afraid most people do not realize what that sign of peace means. It has become more of a “hello” time.
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CathoRick
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Because EF parishioners know better than to chat during Mass.
In all seriousness, I believe that notion all boils down to OF parishioners offering each other the sign of peace during Mass and (not all, but most) holding hands during the Our Father. That’s it. Otherwise, every OF Mass I’ve attended ends with 90% of the parishioners saying their goodbyes to one other as they scramble out the door to their cars.
In the case of the ONE EF Mass I’ve attended (which was last week), I was completely shocked to find that most of everyone stuck around and spoke with one another… The majority of them Millennials. It was far more social than any OF I’ve attended, and I’d very much like to attend one again.
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choose_to_love
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"people will literally step out from their seats . . . " but have you ever experienced this in a Catholic Mass? Have you ever heard of this happening at a Catholic Mass? I think you would agree it is exceedingly rare if it has ever happened. If so, does it really communicate what you propose? Any more than, say, the Confiteor, if that is selected?
Second, the immediately preceeding language in the GIRM is quoting the Lord “my peace I give you” from John 14, not the passage about making amends with one’s brother, although it obviously fits there too.
You would agree that at times the sign of peace does become the ‘howdy do time’ as you put it?
I do think a better time for a 'sign of peace" would be at some time earlier in the Mass, whether right at the beginning of the Mass entirely, or at least before the Consecration. In practice it results in many Masses in my experience (generally the NE of the USA) where people, including the pastor, walk around and greet each other, all while Christ is on the altar, and without the intent of making amends prior to reception of Holy Communion, at least as far as I can tell - - since I have never seen anything like you describe having seen in Protestant communities you were familiar with. FWIW I was Methodist b/f my conversion, and I never saw anything like what you describe in my limited experience in the Methodist church.
Second, the immediately preceeding language in the GIRM is quoting the Lord “my peace I give you” from John 14, not the passage about making amends with one’s brother, although it obviously fits there too.
You would agree that at times the sign of peace does become the ‘howdy do time’ as you put it?
I do think a better time for a 'sign of peace" would be at some time earlier in the Mass, whether right at the beginning of the Mass entirely, or at least before the Consecration. In practice it results in many Masses in my experience (generally the NE of the USA) where people, including the pastor, walk around and greet each other, all while Christ is on the altar, and without the intent of making amends prior to reception of Holy Communion, at least as far as I can tell - - since I have never seen anything like you describe having seen in Protestant communities you were familiar with. FWIW I was Methodist b/f my conversion, and I never saw anything like what you describe in my limited experience in the Methodist church.
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rangerdillon
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I used to go to Mass at a church that only did the NO (before the terms EF and OF.) Sadly the pastor was killed during Hurricane Katrina. He omitted the Sign of Peace. We also knelt at the altar rail for Communion.
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