Q
Questioning_1
Guest
Why would an all loving God create a child in the mothers womb knowing that she is going to have an abortion?
Why would God create a baby in a woman's womb knowing that she is going to abort it?
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A
Atlanta_Jen
Guest
Great question.
It is my personal belief that many times, the Lord sends us signs all the time and if we’re listening, we recognize and understand them. In any case, He did give us the gift of free will, and often, the choices we make are not what He hoped for. He does not control our decision making process. It is our job to live up to His standards and do what pleases Him. We often fall short, but God is a loving and forgiving God. To give an example, I know a young woman who found herself pregnant at 18. She was living a wild life and the baby (now 4) has been a blessing to her and she has turned her life around. I believe that she heard the message. She was on a fast track to someplace bad and is now a responsible, loving mother. That baby was a gift from God who literally saved her life.
So I don’t think God “knows” a woman will abort when He created that baby. I think He sets up opportunities for us and allows us to make the choices that will please Him. If He controlled everything, there would be no point in having faith. He’d just make us do what He wants us to. Through faith, we learn to love Him and understand Him and walk the walk. Often, I do not understand the reasons for the things that happen in my life and I just assume that maybe I’m not meant to understand right now. Sometimes it makes sense later and sometimes it doesn’t, but I trust in God to help me through. Does that make sense?
It is my personal belief that many times, the Lord sends us signs all the time and if we’re listening, we recognize and understand them. In any case, He did give us the gift of free will, and often, the choices we make are not what He hoped for. He does not control our decision making process. It is our job to live up to His standards and do what pleases Him. We often fall short, but God is a loving and forgiving God. To give an example, I know a young woman who found herself pregnant at 18. She was living a wild life and the baby (now 4) has been a blessing to her and she has turned her life around. I believe that she heard the message. She was on a fast track to someplace bad and is now a responsible, loving mother. That baby was a gift from God who literally saved her life.
So I don’t think God “knows” a woman will abort when He created that baby. I think He sets up opportunities for us and allows us to make the choices that will please Him. If He controlled everything, there would be no point in having faith. He’d just make us do what He wants us to. Through faith, we learn to love Him and understand Him and walk the walk. Often, I do not understand the reasons for the things that happen in my life and I just assume that maybe I’m not meant to understand right now. Sometimes it makes sense later and sometimes it doesn’t, but I trust in God to help me through. Does that make sense?
M
mschrank
Guest
“So I don’t think God “knows” a woman will abort when He created that baby.”
Yes God knows all, he is Omniscient. So why would be create the baby anyway? This is a classic theodicy problem.
First of all, God is good but he is not pleasant or “nice” in the common sense of the word.
Secondly, free will trumps all. God purposefully created a contingent world, i.e., not determined, so we could make meaningful choices to love Him. Humans have free will, dogs for example do not.
Thirdly, we don’t know what happens to a soul that never sees the light of day. It hasn’t been revealed.
Yes God knows all, he is Omniscient. So why would be create the baby anyway? This is a classic theodicy problem.
First of all, God is good but he is not pleasant or “nice” in the common sense of the word.
Secondly, free will trumps all. God purposefully created a contingent world, i.e., not determined, so we could make meaningful choices to love Him. Humans have free will, dogs for example do not.
Thirdly, we don’t know what happens to a soul that never sees the light of day. It hasn’t been revealed.
C
CapIV
Guest
Of course God knows that she will procure an abortion. It is the definition of Omniscient that He would know all.
However, God also gives the woman her natural right of Free Will.
Also, God allows evil to happen because He alone possesses the wisdom to make good from evil. Even if it is in a way that we cannot see or understand.
However, God also gives the woman her natural right of Free Will.
Also, God allows evil to happen because He alone possesses the wisdom to make good from evil. Even if it is in a way that we cannot see or understand.
S
Suester
Guest
I like the way Atlanta Jen responds to this question. Catholics do not believe in predestination. Our lives, paths and choices have not already been planned out. God gifted us with free-will, it is up to us to listen to the Holy Spirit and do the right thing. God’s will is that we take life’s opportunities and do the right thing-thus bringing the world closer to knowing Him.
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Suester
Guest
If in His omniscience, God knows that the woman will abort her child, then it follows that her free will has been predetermined, in other words, it is not truly free will at all, she had no choice but to do what God already knew she would do.
God does not limit our free will. This understanding of Omniscence teeters very close to Theological fatalism, which does not align with Catholic theology, rather with Calvinistic theology.
God does not limit our free will. This understanding of Omniscence teeters very close to Theological fatalism, which does not align with Catholic theology, rather with Calvinistic theology.
M
mschrank
Guest
What are you talking about? How does knowing one will do something amount to making them do it?
If I sneak into your house and read your calendar for next week, does it mean I made you do whatever you had planned?
If I sneak into your house and read your calendar for next week, does it mean I made you do whatever you had planned?
D
drafdog
Guest
Your question assumes that each conception is a separate special act of creation on the part of God. This idea is not supported by Catholic theology.
Matthew
Matthew
M
mschrank
Guest
Ergh? So you’re saying that for unwanted babies, no soul is created?
B
Brendan
Guest
No, precognance does not invalidate Free Will. Knowledge of the action does not define the action itself.
My one year old comes toddling over to me with a big happy grin whenever I come home from work. Does my knowledge that I am going to be greated warmly remove my daughter’s Free Will in her action, does it mean that I have pre-ordained that she will greet me as such? Of course not.
Now this analogy has it’s limits (like they all do) as human knowledge is limited, unlike God’s
I might not be aware of every circumstance, perhaps she went down late for her nap, and is still sleeping when I got home. Or didn’t go down for her nap at all, and is very cranky.
But if I did have that information, I could have foreknowledge of what the reaction would be when I opened the door. But that does not mean that it is not my daughter making the choice of action when I open the door.
God has a complete understanding of everything. This means He has complete understanding of the factors that will enter into our decision, and thus complete foreknowledge of our actions. But the actions are still OURS, choices made by our own Free Will.
B
Brendan
Guest
Each conception IS a willful act of God. God is the only entity that can create a soul, no act of ours can force God to ensoul a body.
God willfully and freely chooses to ensoul a body, and thus generate a new creature. It is not something that He simply chooses to allow (unlike sin) but rather an distinct Actio.
That IS Catholic theology.
A conception occurs because God actively Wills it, not simply because He allows it to happen.
S
Suester
Guest
*Catechism 1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27*
I didn’t do an exhaustive search, but I’m unable to find any reference in the Catechism to God’s omniscience, however there is quite a bit about our free will being God’s design.
However, the topic of Omniscience and Free Will is one of the most hotly debated throughout the history of Christianity. There really is no agreement. No one disputes that God knows all. But God doesn’t exist in time either, so there is no before, during or after. We just can’t get our heads around it. However, I’m sure our choice to continue discussing it is preventing us from doing His will. I think I’ll get back to work.
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27*
I didn’t do an exhaustive search, but I’m unable to find any reference in the Catechism to God’s omniscience, however there is quite a bit about our free will being God’s design.
However, the topic of Omniscience and Free Will is one of the most hotly debated throughout the history of Christianity. There really is no agreement. No one disputes that God knows all. But God doesn’t exist in time either, so there is no before, during or after. We just can’t get our heads around it. However, I’m sure our choice to continue discussing it is preventing us from doing His will. I think I’ll get back to work.
A
Atlanta_Jen
Guest
Thank you Suester. I guess my coffee hadn’t completely kicked in yet as I posted and my thoughts didn’t come across clearly. Of course God knows all. What I meant was, once presented with a certain dilemma, we still have an opportunity by the gift of free will, to make choices that will either bring us closer to, or drive us further away from Him.
So then, God knew that Andrea Yates would kill all her babies but gave them to her anyway. That is one of the challenges of faith. I, as a human and a mother, have a very hard time wrapping my head around that, but as I said in my original post, there are things I just can’t make sense of, other than to have faith in God and accept that perhaps I am not meant to understand at this moment in my life, but maybe will at a later time. After all, He gave us His son, who was put to death. I’m sure even the most faithful of the time were struggling to understand that, to at least some degree as they watched Him suffer.
So then, God knew that Andrea Yates would kill all her babies but gave them to her anyway. That is one of the challenges of faith. I, as a human and a mother, have a very hard time wrapping my head around that, but as I said in my original post, there are things I just can’t make sense of, other than to have faith in God and accept that perhaps I am not meant to understand at this moment in my life, but maybe will at a later time. After all, He gave us His son, who was put to death. I’m sure even the most faithful of the time were struggling to understand that, to at least some degree as they watched Him suffer.
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mschrank
Guest
The problem of evil is the only good atheistic argument. The others, for example “science” are bunk.
It does seem strange, but then you look at the Passion of Christ and you think, huh… that does seem to be his way of getting things done.
It does seem strange, but then you look at the Passion of Christ and you think, huh… that does seem to be his way of getting things done.
J
JonW
Guest
Actually, as a former atheist, I never put any stock in the problem of evil. I always liked Boethius’ account of God as out of time, free will, etc., and never thought the argument held any water or posed any kind of threat to theism. I’m not sure what you mean by the “science” arguments. Maybe you could elaborate on another thread. In any ase, I know the truth now because God gave me grace, not because I argued myself into the position, although there was a great deal of furniture being moved around in my head after being granted grace, which I am also grateful for.
BTW, why do you say that “God is not pleasant or ‘nice’ in the common sense of the word”? Just curious where this perspective comes from. Apologies if I’ve hijacked the thread.
God Bless
Jon
BTW, why do you say that “God is not pleasant or ‘nice’ in the common sense of the word”? Just curious where this perspective comes from. Apologies if I’ve hijacked the thread.
God Bless
Jon
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lizaanne
Guest
Perhaps the MOST loving thing God could do is something we just simply don’t understand. God’s actions may have repercussions now, in our life time, or it could be generations and generations from now. We have no way of knowing God’s plan, and to even suggest that God’s actions in “allowing” a child to be aborted is not “loving” is extremely judgmental of God in that He doesn’t know what He’s doing.
Do we NEED to understand God’s plan to such minute detail? He may have some reason we could never comprehend for creating that soul that would never live outside the womb. I’m hardly in a position to even suppose what that reason might be.Just pray for the ability to accept God’s will, as it is - doesn’t mean you have to scientifically analyze it and understand it at His level in order to accept it.
~Liza
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fhansen
Guest
This is like asking if God should’ve created anything at all, knowing that creation would fall thru sin- with all of the evil that resulted. Obviously He determined that it was worth it but it can be difficult for us to accept the evil which results from the abuse of human freedom. But we truly know evil now and by contrast good, and Gods purpose with this is to bring good out of evil by prompting us (creation) to decide for the good. Adam fell. We rise again with the help of Gods’ Son.
God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist.
Saint Augustine
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Ignatius
Guest
He wants us to follow Him out of Love; we can’t do that if we are robots and have no choice in the matter, so He made us free to make our choice. Each of us has an infinite number of opportunities to unite ourselves with God’s will. Of course, each of those is also an opportunity to go against His will. It only means something if we choose life. Otherwise we would be robots.
Q
Questioning_1
Guest
My question precisely why would a loving God create, when he knows that the woman is going to terminate the pregnancy.
Is it hypocrisy to say you’re against abortion but worship a God who knowingly makes babies in the womb of women who’ll have an abortion?
Please help me figure this out–simply if at all possible
W
water
Guest
A different approach and I didn’t mean to be offending - why would God allow you to exist and question His love instead of you being in a womb of a woman who could’ve aborted you?
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