Why would God create if destined for hell?

[buffalo]

Sister Faustina’s Vision of Hell

I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence…

more…

 

[jmcrae]

This is one of the reasons that I finally had to reject the entire notion of heaven and hell, as well as original sin, as they are generally accepted in Christianity. As several have pointed out, we make our decisions with limited information, based on our experience. We do not have “perfect” knowledge and often our experience has led us to a pretty grim place. To say, then, that the decisions we make as a result can lead to eternal punishment by the “maker/designer” who build these flaws into us, to me flies in the face of a “loving” and “just” God. I believe there is some kind of karma at work, we make mistakes and we do have to learn from them, and we do so through this life as well as in what we would term the “afterlife” (we continue to live after death on this earth, just on a different plane/reality). I believe we continue to evolve “soulwise”, “selfwise” for eons. To simply be born and live 75-85 or so years and then go somewhere nice for eternity seems rather meaningless to me when you consider the how infinite “forever” is. So I just don’t believe in hell or the doctrine of eternal punishment

I see the evidence for Original Sin on the front page of my newspaper nearly every day.

As to the afterlife, I’m guessing we have only the most limited concept of what goes on there - after all, only One has ever returned, and He didn’t give a detailed scientific account.

 

[elvisman]

Romans 9 says nothing about God putting people in positions in order to make decisions. It says he has mercy on whom he will, and wrath on whom he will. You are in denial. Romans 9 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are saying:

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

So be it in your mind, my blind, heretical friend. Heresy is heresy, whether you care or not. Your reality vs the the reality the Church has taught for 2000 years - and Protestantism for 500 - you know better.
Really - do some research and we’ll discuss on another day.

Jesus told the pharisees the following (John 9:41):
"If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains."

---

**Think about that. Until then I’ll pray for you. **

 

[SeekingCatholic]

A) he can actualize a world in which some choose rightly, but not everyone chooses rightly;

Why can He not actualize a world in which everyone chooses rightly?

B) nothing determines free choices. that’s what it means for a choice to be free: that it is undetermined.

No, that’s not the meaning of free choices, and the compatibilists and Thomists and Molinists disagree with you.

no. since no created being exists in all possible worlds, nothing that any created being does can be logically necessary.

So then, under Thomism, God could certainly create a world in which all creatures chose rightly.

this makes no sense: the ***good ***angels may not have sinned, but the bad angels did sin. so even if god had never created humanity, this is ***still ***a world with sin.

Plantinga’s “transworld depravity” defense is based on the idea that for all we know, every possible creature in each possible world will go wrong at least once. The existence of the good angels refutes this.

premise 1 is false: nothing pre-determines our actions in either Thomism or Molinism.

Premise 1 is true. In the case of Thomism, our actions are pre-determined because God caused them. Look it up if you don’t believe me. (ST I-II Q.79 A.2) In the case of Molinism, our actions are pre-determined because God caused the external circumstances, and the external circumstances are of the nature of a brute fact counterfactual (in every possible world in which X is in situation A, he will do Y).

what we freely choose in the possible worlds in which we make free choices is up to us; god simply chooses which of those worlds to actualize. sure, there are worlds in which god provides grace to certain of his creatures, but the efficacy of it is constituted simply by god’s having actualized the world where the gifted creature co-operates with the grace.

So you prove my point. The efficacy of grace is caused by God. So why couldn’t God have actualized a world in which all creatures cooperate with grace?

i don’t think the kinds of goods (read: values) at stake here are commensurabe in the way you are suggesting: there isn’t a good that is “greater” than the evil of the sufferings of the damned; there isn’t one that’s “worse”, either. i reject consequentialism/utilitarianism both as a paradigm for the moral evaluation of human actions and for divine actions.

Then you have just thrown Catholic moral theology into the toilet. It teaches that one may tolerate an evil for the sake of a greater good or to avoid a worse evil. Your categorization of this as “consequentialism/utilitarianism” is way off the mark. If God does not have a greater good in mind, or avoiding a worse evil, then the evil of damnation is gratuitous and God is not omnibenevolent.

the values i am talking about could simply be the good of the specific kind of freedom instantiated in a world that contains beings who choose eternal hatred of god; and that good does not need to be “better” than the sufferings of the damned in order to justify them…

1. What “specific kind of freedom” is that, that doesn’t exist in a world in which no creatures choose eternal hatred of god?
2. Yes it does need to be better, or else the evil is gratuitous.

any more than the life of my son needs to be “better” than the life of my friend’s son for me to choose to save my son when i can save only one of the two drowning children.

All analogies limp, and this one suffers permanent paralysis. The proper analogy here is your friend’s son is drowning while your own child is only suffering sunburn, and you choose to apply lotion to your own child rather than rescue your friend’s.

i merely reiterate the possibility that there is no possible world in which every being co-operates with god’s grace.

And I deny the impossibility. In the first place, such a world is not logically impossible as it entails no contradiction. Under Thomism, God could cause the creatures to cooperate with His grace, so there clearly is a possible world here. Under Molinism, imagine a world with only one rational being. One would be forced to the conclusion then that no matter what being is created, and no matter what external circumstances, his first act must be rejection of God. Yet we know the first act of the good angels was acceptance of God.

sure, but “personal development” isn’t the only value capable of justifying the existence of hell.

OK, then what other value is there?

 

[jmcrae]

The actions of the Devil also factor in to this.

The Devil is our enemy - not God. Hell is not just passively waiting there, hoping for people to choose it, any more than God is.

God gives grace but the Devil gives temptations, and it’s up to us to choose by whom we want to be persuaded - God, or the Devil?

 

[Swan]

I see the evidence for Original Sin on the front page of my newspaper nearly every day.

As to the afterlife, I’m guessing we have only the most limited concept of what goes on there - after all, only One has ever returned, and He didn’t give a detailed scientific account.

I am not suggesting that we aren’t flawed, imperfect beings. I just believe that is our nature and is not due to some sort of disobedience/original sin. Again, I believe we are naturally flawed and one of the things we do in this life is to work through some of that imperfection - we learn and progress - if we live the correct way. This is more Buddhism than Christianity - a blend of sorts as I do not agree 100% with either.

 

[onetimeposter]

I’m the OP and allot of people have completely missed the point of my question and it, as far as I can tell, has not been adequately addressed.

God is all good, all loving and all powerful. God knows all and see’s all.

God new us before we were born and God knows how we will live our entire lives before we are born and before we live our life…because God is all knowing and all powerful.

(If God does not know how we will live our lives before we are born, then God is not all knowing, all seeing or all powerful )

If God knows before hand that the person He is creating will live a life of sin, will not repent and will reject him and therefor will be condemned to an eternity in hell…why would an all loving and all good God create a life that will burn in hell for eternity after a short life on earth?

This has nothing to do with free will…as our all knowing, all powerful and all seeing God knows precisely every decision every person will ever make in their lives…before they are even born, God knows beforehand how we will use our free will.

Why would an all loving, all good and all powerful God create the person in the first place, knowing that at the end of their life, they are going to Hell and I have to remind everyone, as allot of people seem to miss this important point…God knows this before the person is even born.

 

[elvisman]

I’m the OP and allot of people have completely missed the point of my question and it, as far as I can tell, has not been adequately addressed.

God is all good, all loving and all powerful. God knows all and see’s all.

God new us before we were born and God knows how we will live our entire lives before we are born and before we live our life…because God is all knowing and all powerful.

(If God does not know how we will live our lives before we are born, then God is not all knowing, all seeing or all powerful )

If God knows before hand that the person He is creating will live a life of sin, will not repent and will reject him and therefor will be condemned to an eternity in hell…why would an all loving and all good God create a life that will burn in hell for eternity after a short life on earth?

This has nothing to do with free will…as our all knowing, all powerful and all seeing God knows precisely every decision every person will ever make in their lives…before they are even born, God knows beforehand how we will use our free will.

Why would an all loving, all good and all powerful God create the person in the first place, knowing that at the end of their life, they are going to Hell and I have to remind everyone, as allot of people seem to miss this important point…God knows this before the person is even born.

I believe I answered your question in post #81.
God is out of time and space. Think of your life as s finished painting. Think of all time and history as a finished painting. That’s how we can understand how God sees our lives.

**Whether you think it has nothing to do with your question or not, free will has much to do with it. Free will is God’s love. True love demands free will and, as I said in post #81, ultimately it demands justice. **

God doesn’t send you to hell and doesn’t drag you kicking and screaming into heaven. It’s YOUR choice.

 

[onetimeposter]

**

God doesn’t** send you to hell and doesn’t drag you kicking and screaming into heaven. It’s YOUR choice.

God knows what our choice will be…He is omniscient.

He knows we will choose hell. He is creating a life, that He knows will use it’s free will too choose Hell. Therefor God is creating a life destined to an eternity damned in hell.

If God doesn’t know what our choices will be, before we make them, then God is not omniscient.

Can you address this?

 

[Nita]

I’m the OP and allot of people have completely missed the point of my question and it, as far as I can tell, has not been adequately addressed.

God is all good, all loving and all powerful. God knows all and see’s all.

God new us before we were born and God knows how we will live our entire lives before we are born and before we live our life…because God is all knowing and all powerful.

(If God does not know how we will live our lives before we are born, then God is not all knowing, all seeing or all powerful )

If God knows before hand that the person He is creating will live a life of sin, will not repent and will reject him and therefor will be condemned to an eternity in hell…why would an all loving and all good God create a life that will burn in hell for eternity after a short life on earth?

This has nothing to do with free will…as our all knowing, all powerful and all seeing God knows precisely every decision every person will ever make in their lives…before they are even born, God knows beforehand how we will use our free will.

Why would an all loving, all good and all powerful God create the person in the first place, knowing that at the end of their life, they are going to Hell and I have to remind everyone, as allot of people seem to miss this important point…God knows this before the person is even born.

To be very succinct, we just do no know why God creates people who will spend eternity in hell. It is part of the mystery of evil – that is, why God permits evil.

I have not read thru all 9 pages of this thread, so I do not know if anyone has mentioned paragraphs #309 thru #314 in the CCC. It’s titled “Providence and the scandal of evil”. It’s well worth reading. Here’s a link to that section in the CCC:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM

Nita

 

[Denae]

God knows what we will do, and gives us the free will to do it. He does not send us to hell, we send ourselves. Every soul was created for heaven, but through our own sins, we put ourselves in hell. God won’t stop us.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m the OP and allot of people have completely missed the point of my question and it, as far as I can tell, has not been adequately addressed.

God is all good, all loving and all powerful. God knows all and see’s all.

God new us before we were born and God knows how we will live our entire lives before we are born and before we live our life…because God is all knowing and all powerful.

(If God does not know how we will live our lives before we are born, then God is not all knowing, all seeing or all powerful )

As soon as God thinks of you, you are created. God cannot think of you, without you then coming into existence. Existence is the substance of God’s thoughts. God cannot think of things that do not exist, because as soon as He thinks of them, they come to be. God doesn’t have past, present and future, like we do. God is in Eternity, which does not have any Time in it. There is no “will be” with God - everything simply “is” - all in the same instantaneous not-Time.

With God, there is no “before you were born.” As soon as He thinks of you, you have been born, you have lived, you have died, and you have been Judged, and gone on to whatever afterlife you chose for yourself. From God’s point of view, everything has already happened.

 

[quaestio]

I think I see what the OP is getting at.

If God sees the whole of history as a finished painting, then He presently sees Smith murder Jones, fail to repent for it, die in old age, and receive eternal punishment.

Given this account, I think the OP rightly wants to know: why does God bring Smith into being if God simultaneously knows that Smith’s end-point is eternal punishment?

 

[onetimeposter]

God knows what we will do, and gives us the free will to do it. He does not send us to hell, we send ourselves. Every soul was created for heaven, but through our own sins, we put ourselves in hell. God won’t stop us.

How could you miss my point , when you have included my point in your own statement!!!

You said: God knows what we will do

Which means…God knows, even before we are born, if we are destined for heaven or hell. God knows this, because he is all knowing.

Therefor, as you say, God knows what we will do, therefor God creates a man, knowing that he will live a life that will send himself to hell.

If God knows what we will do, why does God create people, who God knows will live a life of sin and will condemn themselves to hell? God knows precisely how they will choose to live their life.
**
How could an all loving God create people, who God knows will choose to live in such a way that they will end up in hell?**

God won’t stop us, I KNOW THAT, follow closely…God won’t stop us, but God already knows what we are going to do…meaning, he knows we are destined for hell before we are even born!

How could an all loving and all good God create people he knows are destined for hell, as he is able to see a persons entire life before it is even lived?

 

[onetimeposter]

As soon as God thinks of you, you are created. God cannot think of you, without you then coming into existence. Existence is the substance of God’s thoughts. God cannot think of things that do not exist, because as soon as He thinks of them, they come to be. God doesn’t have past, present and future, like we do. God is in Eternity, which does not have any Time in it. There is no “will be” with God - everything simply “is” - all in the same instantaneous not-Time.

With God, there is no “before you were born.” As soon as He thinks of you, you have been born, you have lived, you have died, and you have been Judged, and gone on to whatever afterlife you chose for yourself. From God’s point of view, everything has already happened.

I’m pretty sure the Church teaches that God new you before you were born.

Because God lives outside of time, past present future is meaningless to Him…he see’s all and knows all. He knows what every decision you will ever make will be, before you have even made those decision.

You said…From God’s point of view, everything has already happened.

So, please answer my question…why is an all good, all loving God creating people who he knows will end up in hell?

 

[onetimeposter]

I think I see what the OP is getting at.

If God sees the whole of history as a finished painting, then He presently sees Smith murder Jones, fail to repent for it, die in old age, and receive eternal punishment.

Given this account, I think the OP rightly wants to know: why does God bring Smith into being if God simultaneously knows that Smith’s end-point is eternal punishment?

YES YES YES YES YES

PRECISELY.

 

[Nullasalus]

How could an all loving and all good God create people he knows are destined for hell, as he is able to see a persons entire life before it is even lived?

Leaving aside that we can’t know who is or is not in hell, and that the specifics of hell are and have been the stuff of theological debate, I offer my response. Some beings deserving of heaven may have contingent links to beings deserving of hell. And I do not buy the response that an omnipotent God can just create said deserving beings without the contingent link and still be the ‘same’ being.

 

[onetimeposter]

Leaving aside that we can’t know who is or is not in hell, and that the specifics of hell are and have been the stuff of theological debate, I offer my response. Some beings deserving of heaven may have contingent links to beings deserving of hell. And I do not buy the response that an omnipotent God can just create said deserving beings without the contingent link and still be the ‘same’ being.

I’m a fairly smart guy, but I haven’t a clue of what your trying to say.

 

[SeekingCatholic]

Leaving aside that we can’t know who is or is not in hell, and that the specifics of hell are and have been the stuff of theological debate, I offer my response. Some beings deserving of heaven may have contingent links to beings deserving of hell. And I do not buy the response that an omnipotent God can just create said deserving beings without the contingent link and still be the ‘same’ being.

Just because you don’t “buy” it doesn’t mean it isn’t a logical refutation. Where a person is, how tall he is, who his friends are, what he does for a living, etc., are only accidents. They do not change the essence of who a person is. Otherwise by your logic I’d become a different person if I moved to a different city.

And if even God could not just create said beings without the contingent link then it would not be contingent, but a necessary, link.

 

[Nullasalus]

Just because you don’t “buy” it doesn’t mean it isn’t a logical refutation. Where a person is, how tall he is, who his friends are, what he does for a living, etc., are only accidents. They do not change the essence of who a person is. Otherwise by your logic I’d become a different person if I moved to a different city.

And if even God could not just create said beings without the contingent link then it would not be contingent, but a necessary, link.

And just because you assert that someone is wrong doesn’t mean they are.

I was using this definition of contingent: “1. dependent for existence, occurrence, character, etc., on something not yet certain; conditional (often fol. by on or upon)”. Seems clear enough to me.

And no, you aren’t a different person when you move to a different city. But you’re certainly a different person than a “you” who did not move. Your response to my example rests on the idea that a person’s history is not essential to who they are - the Nullasalus who never posted in this thread would be the same Nullasalus as myself, the one who is posting in this thread. Why - because they have the same name? A similar physical makeup? Same partial history?

A person’s history is essential to who they are. Change the history, and change the person. If you disagree, I’d love to hear what standard you’re going by.