Why would God create if destined for hell?

[elvisman]

There you go spewing your charity again. You are being pretty hypocritical, here, elvisman. You have accused me in other threads of being uncharitable, but you might want to take that plank out of your own eye.

I have to believe that God created some for destruction, because his Word says it quite explicitly. Read Romans 9.

You reek of pride. Again, go dig out that plank.

When did I ever say literal? The Bible certainly means what it says, but it is not always literal. There are things called simile, metaphor, and allegory. I know Jesus didn’t really mean eat his flesh off his body, because his disciples never did it, except at his last Passover meal, but it wasn’t the way the people you are referring to thought it would be, obviously. It’s the same way we know Jesus didn’t mean cut off body parts, among other things: by using our God-given reasoning abilities.

As for Romans 9 – again you are having a heck of a time misinterpreting Scripture. Let me educate you a little further:
**Romans 9:22 **points towards vessels who are “made for destruction” by their acts and lack of penitence. These are literally vessels who destroy – not vessels who were created purposely evil so that they would be punished eternally. The “vessels of mercy” are the ones who suffer at their hands.
God doesn’t create people for destruction. That would make him the author of evil, which, if you’re a Christian (and I’m having a really hard time believing that you are) you would know that this is heresy. He gives people like Pharaoh (or even Hitler) a chance to repent – as is shown in Exodus 9:27-35.

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Your heretical views on free-will were smashed by the Early Church Fathers in the early centuries:
Simonianism** - 2nd century**
Apollinarianism **** - 4th century
Pelagianism **** - 5th century

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I suggest you read some Protestant, as well as Catholic theologians on the matter. You are really confused.

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Next lesson: The Eucharist – the Body and Blood of Christ
But that’s a lesson for another thread . . .

 

[ckempston]

As for Romans 9 – again you are having a heck of a time misinterpreting Scripture. Let me educate you a little further:
**Romans 9:22 **points towards vessels who are “made for destruction” by their acts and lack of penitence. These are literally vessels who destroy – not vessels who were created purposely evil so that they would be punished eternally. The “vessels of mercy” are the ones who suffer at their hands.
God doesn’t create people for destruction. That would make him the author of evil, which, if you’re a Christian (and I’m having a really hard time believing that you are) you would know that this is heresy. He gives people like Pharaoh (or even Hitler) a chance to repent – as is shown in Exodus 9:27-35.

---

Your heretical views on free-will were smashed by the Early Church Fathers in the early centuries:
Simonianism** - 2nd century**
Apollinarianism **** - 4th century
Pelagianism **** - 5th century

---

I suggest you read some Protestant, as well as Catholic theologians on the matter. You are really confused.

---

**Next lesson: The Eucharist **– the Body and Blood of Christ
But that’s a lesson for another thread . . .

You’re the one who’s confused. God does not do anything based on our merit or “penitence”:

“So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”

You obviously missed the rest of the chapter.

It’s your views on Free Will that are smashed - by the Bible.

 

[elvisman]

You’re the one who’s confused. God does not do anything based on our merit or “penitence”:

“So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”

You obviously missed the rest of the chapter.

It’s your views on Free Will that are smashed - by the Bible.

**WRONG. Repentence is essential for forgivness. **

Acts 2:38 says explicitly:
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

Final impenitence is the unforgivable sin Jesus spoke of in Matt. 12:32.

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I will pray for you and all confused heretics, that you see the light of God’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and share in the fullness of its truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, everyone, and remember to post, if not with charity, at least with civility. Thank you all.

 

[ckempston]

WRONG. Repentence is essential for forgivness.

Acts 2:38 says explicitly:
"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

Final impenitence is the unforgivable sin Jesus spoke of in Matt. 12:32.

---

**I will pray for you and all **confused heretics, that you see the light of God’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and share in the fullness of its truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

I never said it wasn’t essential, I said it doesn’t merit forgiveness.

How convenient for you to avoid the issue of Romans 9 and throw up a strawman.

 

[Patrick60]

If God knows our entire lives before we live it…God knows exactly who is destined for Heaven and Hell…before we are even born…is that not right?

If that is the case, why create a being that will make choices that will have them spend eternity in hell?

Wouldn’t the more loving thing to do, would be not to create that life in the first place, thus guaranteeing that they will not suffer eternity in hell?

We are created in the image and likeness of God. God has free will. Therefore, if we are created in His image and likeness, we must have free will likewise. Does free will exist without the ability to make a rational choice? No, it does not. Therefore, in order for human beings to be truly made in God’s image and have the ability to choose, there must of necessity be choices.

We are given the choice of life and death, grace or sin, Heaven or Hell. You are trying to negate God’s justice by virtue of His omniscience, and you can’t use God to refute God. Ultimately, God created Heaven and Hell and gave man free will to choose either one because that was what He decided to do. God has free will too.

If you have any objections to this, I suggest that you take it up with Him. It was His idea.

 

[ckempston]

We are created in the image and likeness of God. God has free will. Therefore, if we are created in His image and likeness, we must have free will likewise. Does free will exist without the ability to make a rational choice? No, it does not. Therefore, in order for human beings to be truly made in God’s image and have the ability to choose, there must of necessity be choices.

It does not follow from being created in God’s image that we have all of God’s attributes. We’re created in God’s image, so we are omnipotent? I don’t think so. I disagree with your inference.

We are given the choice of life and death, grace or sin, Heaven or Hell. You are trying to negate God’s justice by virtue of His omniscience, and you can’t use God to refute God. Ultimately, God created Heaven and Hell and gave man free will to choose either one because that was what He decided to do. God has free will too.

If you have any objections to this, I suggest that you take it up with Him. It was His idea.

 

[Patrick60]

It does not follow from being created in God’s image that we have all of God’s attributes. We’re created in God’s image, so we are omnipotent? I don’t think so. I disagree with your inference.

I would like to ask you to give references that specifically state that being created in God’s image and likeness means that “we have ALL of God’s attributes.” And how do you classify God’s omsniscience as an “attribute?”

Your terms are poorly defined.

 

[elvisman]

I never said it wasn’t essential, I said it doesn’t merit forgiveness.

How convenient for you to avoid the issue of Romans 9 and throw up a strawman.

**Ummm . . . I addressed Romans 9 in great detail. **
Read my post #101.

I explained to you that you were confused regarding its meaning. Your position is in direct contrast with the Catholic and Evangelical positions. As is your adherence to the heretical view against free will.

 

[ckempston]

I would like to ask you to give references that specifically state that being created in God’s image and likeness means that “we have ALL of God’s attributes.” And how do you classify God’s omsniscience as an “attribute?”

Your terms are poorly defined.

Why would I have to prove anything? You’re the one that made the claim: since we are made in God’s image, and God has Free Will, we also have free will. That’s a non sequitur.

 

[ckempston]

Ummm . . . I addressed Romans 9 in great detail.
Read my post #101.

**I explained to you that you were confused regarding its meaning. Your position is in direct contrast **with the Catholic and Evangelical positions. As is your adherence to the heretical view against free will.

You only referenced one verse (22, I believe). The entire chapter is talking about how God condemns some, and others he shows mercy. You did not, by any stretch, deal with anything in detail.

At the present time, I’m really not all that concerned with what the Catholic and Evangelical positions are, nor that you consider me a heretic, so you can keep repeating these things, but they’re not exactly effective.

 

[jmcrae]

So, what you’re saying here is that Exodus 10:1 is not true. Got it.

He “hardened Pharoah’s heart” in the sense of putting the “clay” into the “kiln” in the shape that Pharoah had already made it into, by his own free choice - not in the sense of causing Pharoah to think something negative or do something negative that he wasn’t already freely choosing.

 

[SilentKnight]

I understand what you’re saying, I think, but for myself it leads to a different result: I find it perfectly acceptable that God would permit evil in order to allow a good to actualize. God would not be “desiring that Agent 1 rape” or regarding the rape itself as a good thing. But since the rape is a contingent necessity to Agent 2’s existence, I think there’s as much (and perhaps more) justification to allowing evil on the grounds of what good may come of it, as there is to disallowing an evil in spite of what good may come of it.

Right. Bingo. “We know that all things work for good for those that love God,” Romans says. My point and the one you make here are separate and complementary points, and yours is a very good one.



SK

 

[SilentKnight]

Ok, FWIW to anybody, this conversation officially has me dizzy now…

:hypno:

SK

 

[elvisman]

You only referenced one verse (22, I believe). The entire chapter is talking about how God condemns some, and others he shows mercy. You did not, by any stretch, deal with anything in detail.

At the present time, I’m really not all that concerned with what the Catholic and Evangelical positions are, nor that you consider me a heretic, so you can keep repeating these things, but they’re not exactly effective.

Okay - one last time - and please read carefully:

You’re missing the entire point of Romans 9.
God may put somebody in a position but what they DO in that position is up to their own free will. Just like Pharoah - just like Haman, just like Hitler. They all had the free will NOT to be vessels of destruction, but they CHOSE the wrong path.

Mary, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul - they CHOSE to do the will of God.

**Truly, there is none so blind as he who refuses to see. :banghead: **

 

[ckempston]

Okay - one last time - and please read carefully:

You’re missing the entire point of Romans 9.
God may put somebody in a position but what they DO in that position is up to their own free will. Just like Pharoah - just like Haman, just like Hitler. They all had the free will NOT to be vessels of destruction, but they CHOSE the wrong path.

Mary, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul - they CHOSE to do the will of God.

Truly, there is none so blind as he who refuses to see. :banghead:

Romans 9 says nothing about God putting people in positions in order to make decisions. It says he has mercy on whom he will, and wrath on whom he will. You are in denial. Romans 9 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are saying:

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Swan]

This is one of the reasons that I finally had to reject the entire notion of heaven and hell, as well as original sin, as they are generally accepted in Christianity. As several have pointed out, we make our decisions with limited information, based on our experience. We do not have “perfect” knowledge and often our experience has led us to a pretty grim place. To say, then, that the decisions we make as a result can lead to eternal punishment by the “maker/designer” who build these flaws into us, to me flies in the face of a “loving” and “just” God. I believe there is some kind of karma at work, we make mistakes and we do have to learn from them, and we do so through this life as well as in what we would term the “afterlife” (we continue to live after death on this earth, just on a different plane/reality). I believe we continue to evolve “soulwise”, “selfwise” for eons. To simply be born and live 75-85 or so years and then go somewhere nice for eternity seems rather meaningless to me when you consider the how infinite “forever” is. So I just don’t believe in hell or the doctrine of eternal punishment

 

[ckempston]

This is one of the reasons that I finally had to reject the entire notion of heaven and hell, as well as original sin, as they are generally accepted in Christianity. As several have pointed out, we make our decisions with limited information, based on our experience. We do not have “perfect” knowledge and often our experience has led us to a pretty grim place. To say, then, that the decisions we make as a result can lead to eternal punishment by the “maker/designer” who build these flaws into us, to me flies in the face of a “loving” and “just” God. I believe there is some kind of karma at work, we make mistakes and we do have to learn from them, and we do so through this life as well as in what we would term the “afterlife” (we continue to live after death on this earth, just on a different plane/reality). I believe we continue to evolve “soulwise”, “selfwise” for eons. To simply be born and live 75-85 or so years and then go somewhere nice for eternity seems rather meaningless to me when you consider the how infinite “forever” is. So I just don’t believe in hell or the doctrine of eternal punishment

Based on your post, I’d guess that you are likewise aware that the words for “forver,” “eternity,” and “hell” are largely misunderstood and mistranslated. Your correct use of the word “eon” is a dead giveaway.

 

[buffalo]

This is one of the reasons that I finally had to reject the entire notion of heaven and hell, as well as original sin, as they are generally accepted in Christianity. As several have pointed out, we make our decisions with limited information, based on our experience. We do not have “perfect” knowledge and often our experience has led us to a pretty grim place. To say, then, that the decisions we make as a result can lead to eternal punishment by the “maker/designer” who build these flaws into us, to me flies in the face of a “loving” and “just” God. I believe there is some kind of karma at work, we make mistakes and we do have to learn from them, and we do so through this life as well as in what we would term the “afterlife” (we continue to live after death on this earth, just on a different plane/reality). I believe we continue to evolve “soulwise”, “selfwise” for eons. To simply be born and live 75-85 or so years and then go somewhere nice for eternity seems rather meaningless to me when you consider the how infinite “forever” is. So I just don’t believe in hell or the doctrine of eternal punishment

Purgatory
Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead

Hell
Is 33:11, 14 - who of us can live with the everlasting flames
Mt 25:41 - depart, you accursed, into the eternal fire
Mt 25:46 - these will go off to eternal punishment
Lk 3:16-17 - the chaff will burn in unquenchable fire
2Thess 1:6-9 - these will pay the penalty of eternal ruin

Hell

 

[buffalo]

Americans Think Hell Exists,
But No One Goes There