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adrian1
Guest
Why would God create people he knew would go to hell? I think this thing is absurd…
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mkoopman
Guest
What you are saying is that you think free will is absurd.
Our choices are our own, and we freely choose Hell, the separation from God.
How would we know love if we had not free will?
Mystery and miracles go hand in hand.
God loves every person He made.
The converse need not be true.
What makes that absurd, or unjust?
God is goodness, we can choose to reject what is good and do evil.
Is it absurd? Would it be better if Creation never came into being?
What universe would you make? None at all, existential unknowning nothingness?
We are made to be loved by God, there is nothing absurd in this purpose.
Our choices are our own, and we freely choose Hell, the separation from God.
How would we know love if we had not free will?
Mystery and miracles go hand in hand.
God loves every person He made.
The converse need not be true.
What makes that absurd, or unjust?
God is goodness, we can choose to reject what is good and do evil.
Is it absurd? Would it be better if Creation never came into being?
What universe would you make? None at all, existential unknowning nothingness?
We are made to be loved by God, there is nothing absurd in this purpose.
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mkoopman
Guest
If you had not free will you would not be able to make that choice to love. You would be working by instinct. Is acting on instinct what we know to be love?
God’s love is greater than what we may know. But what we know as love would not be love if not for our free will.
Automatons do not love.
God’s love is greater than what we may know. But what we know as love would not be love if not for our free will.
Automatons do not love.
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steve-b
Guest
Here’s a 7 minute answer to your question Why would God create someone knowing they will go to hell? | Catholic Answers.
That said, God puts before us, life and death, blessings and curses, He wants us to choose blessings and life, NOT curses and death. But He doesn’t force our choices. Deuteronomy 30:19 RSVCE - I call heaven and earth to witness - Bible Gateway we have freedom God gave us to choose.
As an aside, God doesn’t cause people to go to hell. The fact He knows in advance what people will choose to do, doesn’t mean He caused them to choose / do evil.
Actions have consequences. God gave the angels a test and 1/3 failed. Rev 12:4 Revelation 12:4 RSVCE - His tail swept down a third of the - Bible Gateway
We are likewise given a test while we are on this side of eternity.
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2towers
Guest
Our souls are eternal. If we reject him, he has put us somewhere when we die!
So it’s either heaven, reform school, or the incenerator.
So it’s either heaven, reform school, or the incenerator.
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Gorgias
Guest
Actually… no.
Yes… let’s walk through this…
No. ‘Evil’ is defined as the “privation of good.” In other words, evil is not a thing – it is the lack of a thing (that is, it is the lack of good.)
Again… no.
God’s will is not ‘good’ because it is “God’s will”; it is good because it is good.
Sorry to point this out at every turn, but… no; you’re mistaken again.
God is not “incapable of evil”. Instead, God is “incapable of not being God.” If what you’re positing is simply that “God is completely incapable of choosing to not be God”, then… umm… yeah. Revel in the banality of that claim for a bit, and see if it leads you anywhere.
Rather, the truth of your statement becomes “God is God. Always. Without fail. Evil is not defined by God, but by the absence of God.”
Umm… uhh… nice try?
You statement collapses into “God is incapable of choosing between ‘God’ and ‘not God’”. That’s far from insightful.
Moreover, it hardly proves your point. More to the point, it doesn’t demonstrate what I think you want to demonstrate. After all, if a being is fully and completely good, then its expression of “free will” is an expression of full and complete good. Anything short of that would demonstrate that He is not what He is. (And, to be fair, you’ve failed to demonstrate that. So… nice try.
)You may wish to rethink your logic. God’s free will is expressed through His goodness. And therefore, his expression of free will is an expression of love.
But like I said… nice try.
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Thom18
Guest
What would your proposed solution be? Not create the souls who would go to hell at all? That itself is a punishment, and an unjust one at that. It’s not right and just to punish someone for an offense they haven’t committed, even if you “know” that they would commit it if given the chance.
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KevinK
Guest
What about non-existence? That would surely be a choice you have missed.
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NiceIsAsNiceDoes
Guest
I think this is one where we should all be comfortable saying nobody knows the answer to this and we are completely OK with not knowing. It is a mystery. I have read all of the responses. Interesting hypothesis here, interesting guess there… Interesting discussion.
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Latin
Guest
God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Free will without the corresponding knowledge is not only useless but it is HOMICIDAL.
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An animal has free will to go to the trap but doesn’t have a corresponding knowledge to know what the trap is or what it means to be in the trap.
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For an un-regenerated man/not yet born again/not in the state of grace spiritual things are foolishness to him, he is spiritually DEAD, he is in fact a SLAVE OF SIN, he doesn’t have free will to choose Christ or to choose spiritual things, or to be under the law of God, etc, etc.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
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1 Cor.2:14; The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
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I agree with you Adrian1, I also believe: This thing is absurd…
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God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Free will without the corresponding knowledge is not only useless but it is HOMICIDAL.
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An animal has free will to go to the trap but doesn’t have a corresponding knowledge to know what the trap is or what it means to be in the trap.
.
For an un-regenerated man/not yet born again/not in the state of grace spiritual things are foolishness to him, he is spiritually DEAD, he is in fact a SLAVE OF SIN, he doesn’t have free will to choose Christ or to choose spiritual things, or to be under the law of God, etc, etc.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
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1 Cor.2:14; The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
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I agree with you Adrian1, I also believe: This thing is absurd…
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God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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2towers
Guest
Many wish for that actually, l know people who do. For better or worse, God did not put that option on the menu.
This is something many atheists believe, but it is not what Catholics believe or at least not what the Church teaches. Hell is full of folk that wish for that, but God created soul to live eternally.
He gives us fair warning of this, over and over again
We ignore him at our peril. We are also told, not to focus on fear (WHAT?) Every now and then, that is all we have to keep us, or at least me, in line. I have been a wretched sinner most of my life, deserving the lowest pitt. But if that is all that saves me, I may see heaven yet, but l have totally missed the point of it all.
That point is to get to know God, to slowly fall in love with him, then we will be all about serving and glorifying him and eventually trusting him. After that, litle else will matter to you. That is when you will begin to find out what happiness means.
I could write pages, but most people would get board. Pax
This is something many atheists believe, but it is not what Catholics believe or at least not what the Church teaches. Hell is full of folk that wish for that, but God created soul to live eternally.
He gives us fair warning of this, over and over again
We ignore him at our peril. We are also told, not to focus on fear (WHAT?) Every now and then, that is all we have to keep us, or at least me, in line. I have been a wretched sinner most of my life, deserving the lowest pitt. But if that is all that saves me, I may see heaven yet, but l have totally missed the point of it all.
That point is to get to know God, to slowly fall in love with him, then we will be all about serving and glorifying him and eventually trusting him. After that, litle else will matter to you. That is when you will begin to find out what happiness means.
I could write pages, but most people would get board. Pax
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Latin
Guest
God bless you 2Towers and God bless every readers of the CAF.
The Catholic Church does NOT TEACH that anyone is in hell.
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Would you 2Towers choose hell if you know what hell is???
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An un-regenerated man CAN NOT choose hell because it is foolishness to him, a regenerated man called to eternal life doesn’t choose hell because God is the One who working in him BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT, etc. etc.
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If someone called to eternal life and would reject salvation related graces would
end up in hell and God would instantly lose His omniscience. - DE FIDE Dogma.
We can be sure, this will NEVER happen.
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God bless you 2Towers and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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mkoopman
Guest
Interesting proposition that all dogs go to heaven because dogs have some type of animal free will. Apparently by changing the meaning of free will and nullifying the human soul in so doing everyone is free to do anything while no one goes to Hell.
If God were just a construct built by human logic you could be right. I would not walk on this thin ice and feel justified but you make your choice–wait, no you don’t, there goes Pavlov’s bell now.
See you after dinner boy, we will throw a stick for a while. I’m drooling over your reply.
No one knows your a dog as I stare into the headlights. Really why would you want to lead persons to make the choice to go to Hell with your untruths?
If God were just a construct built by human logic you could be right. I would not walk on this thin ice and feel justified but you make your choice–wait, no you don’t, there goes Pavlov’s bell now.
See you after dinner boy, we will throw a stick for a while. I’m drooling over your reply.
No one knows your a dog as I stare into the headlights. Really why would you want to lead persons to make the choice to go to Hell with your untruths?
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PetraG
Guest
Well, maybe because God knows that there are beings (such as Satan) who both refuse to love Him and who do not wish they had never been born, even in damnation.
Our Lord said, “The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” (Matt. 26:24) Well, what if, after all is said and done, the unrepentant mortal sinner is like the fallen angels, who do not wish they had never been born but are only resentful that they are not God and could not change reality to defeat love and all it represents?
Do they not have what they choose for themselves?
Is it inherently wrong to give someone what they want, rather than what you know is best for them?
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2towers
Guest
Sadly they are though. This isn’t the first time you’ve been down this road is it? and I’m speaking without an ounce of sarcasm I want you to understand that. I understand how difficult and heavy it is to accept this.
I understand that we weren’t asked tobe created, still this happened. Our creator, God has laws. life on Earth is just a short amount of time so it is a small burden to carry to inherit the rewards of Heaven. (edit: well no it is small in the scheme of things, it feels heavy now.)
No one wants to go through basic training training in the army but what can follow it is a distinguished military career. Still, there are those that choose to break the rules and be thrown out of the army forfeiting their career.
This is a poor metaphor I know but it’s the closest I can come. God has a personal relationship with you that I don’t have, I don’t know you. He does. The mercies he shows you, will be based on YOUR relationship, not anyone else.
But is that enough? Shouldn’t you crucify your passions, or try your best to, and keep his commandments, repenting those times you fail?
This is my understanding, and I hope it becomes yours.
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PetraG
Guest
Just because you know it is possible that someone can put themselves eternally beyond salutory repentance, you do not know that there is anyone who would choose salutory repentance who was ever denied it.
To keep your analogy, perhaps there is no one thrown out of basic training. Perhaps there are only people who eternally refuse to complete it and eternally bear the consequences.
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2towers
Guest
That is true. I would be lying if I said that doesn’t worry me.but the OP should try walking before swimming wouldn’t you agree?
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PetraG
Guest
The OP is concerned that there may be someone who might will a union of love with God and may be entirely willing to submit in every way necessary to be granted salvation who will be denied it. This anxiety sometimes leads people to leave the Faith. They construct an understanding of God that lacks love, judge that construct unworthy of their belief or worship, and use their rejection of that construct to reject God.
Yes, I think it is best to teach that we can trust that God really and truly is Love, and is more anxious for the salvation of every soul than we can possibly be. What we may be willing to do that God is not is this: We are willing to consider that it is better to override free will (give the person what we think is best) rather than allow people the gift of free will.
We must trust that God’s gift of free will and God’s mercy is superior in every way to our alternative. We think we know the ramifications of everything we want God to do, but we don’t know. We ought to trust, because we DO know that God does know every implication that flows from the will of God, and in no circumstance, degree or right interpretation is the will of God ever contrary to the demands of Love, Justice or Truth.
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2towers
Guest
But this is not likely or even possible is it? What I think is much more probable and dangerous is that we might convince ourselves that we are submitting fully to athority, when we are really not.
I love what you wrote by the way.
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PetraG
Guest
(Thanks!)
There are people who fear that they will fail to cooperate with eternal life by mistake, or that someone else will. They don’t think of it this way, but in essense they are afraid Heaven is a bureaucracy, that God really might make a mistake or draw a line that essentially says: Well, yes, I’m All-Loving, but Only Up to a POINT!!
We ought to fear sin, yes, even inadvertant sin that comes not out of some honest mistake (which isn’t even a sin) but out of habitual self-centeredness that is so ingrained that we are barely aware of our hubris. This is easy to understand for anyone who has ever fallen in love, I think, or for someone who always wanted to be good at something and finally gets a really good coach. Even if you know you won’t be rejected for doing something offensive to your loved one, you still have an anxiety to know what pleases a lover and to avoid giving offense out of sloth or thoughtlessness. When you get a good coach and it dawns on you how far you have been from a truly exemplary effort, you feel anxious to learn how to get beyond your ignorance and learn to do things right.
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