Why would God create people he knew would go to hell?

[Gorgias]

Do you regard God as unable to observe your future?

From a philosophical standpoint (this is the philosophy sub-forum, right? ), you’re correct: God does not observe. Observing implies act, act implies change, change implies learning. God does not do that. Rather, God simply knows.

Either God knows every step of the future, in which case we cannot change the future, or He doesn’t, in which case God does not know some things. You really don’t get to have your caked and eat it, too.

No… it’s not “future” to God. It’s the “eternal now.” So, God knows it… but that doesn’t mean that he forces it to happen. He doesn’t know it as a “before”, “during”, and “after”. He knows it as you’ve chosen it. Because he’s outside of time, He knows all of it. But, he doesn’t know it in a way that forces you to any choice. Your error is that you’re constraining Him to the temporal framework – as if He knows “now” what you’ll have for breakfast “tomorrow”, and thus, locks you into that choice “now”.

That’s an error of logic, since you’re attempting to place God within the constraints of the temporal framework. He’s not constrained. What He knows, He knows from the reality of your choice. Not in time, but outside of it.

We, on the other hand, only know things by learning them – observing or acting in some way. If we were to be able to learn something now, regarding something in the future, then you could say that our knowledge constrains that future action. That’s what you’re trying to pin on God, and it doesn’t work because He’s not constrained by the temporal framework.

 

[benjamin1973]

He’s not constrained by the temporal framework, but the temporal framework is constrained by his knowledge, precisely because He is outside of time. If God knows, however you want to word or frame it, what is (for me) the future, and if there is only one (for me) the future that God knows, then my future is necessarily immalleable. And the purpose of free will is, so far as I can see it, to be free of the immalleability of the future.

 

[benjamin1973]

You keep talking about frameworks, but it doesn’t matter where or when God is or where or when He knows what I’m eating for breakfast. If it is known to Him, it is known to Him. If it is known to Him, it is immalleable precisely because he is outside of the flow of time.

 

[Aloysium]

the temporal framework is constrained by his knowledge

God knows each and every moment.
The physical universe can be represented by a trajectory where there is no real present but a series of connected events.
It is our free will that creates the past-present-future that characterizes our existence, where our eternal nature (an ever present, but changing now) and time (everything that happens from the beginning to the end)
A relational mind is required to experience the moment where we always exist thinking about what is other to us.

When we make a moral decision, when we have the possibility to give of what we have been given, it always happens “now”.
The past is fixed and unchangeable; the future contains hope and possibilities.
Right here and now is when all decisions are made that determining who we make of ourselves.

If God knows, however you want to word or frame it, what is (for me) the future, and if there is only one (for me) the future that God knows, then my future is necessarily immalleable.

God’s “Now” is made of all nows. This moment, alive and real is like all other moments, from which we are detached rendering them “dead” and elsewhere.
In this moment we are capable of great things and terrible things and is determined by what we decide, right here and now.
In terms of moral choices, looking ahead in our journey through life, what we do involves many factors internal and external, good and bad, which have been given to us.
What we choose to do with them is up to us.

free of the immalleability of the future

Recall the story of Cain and Abel. God warns Cain that sin is growing within him. Cain has an opportunity to undergo a conversion. But, he allows himself to succumb to jealousy and hate, choosing to kill his brother.
While God has all time and space before Him, in His benevolence He enters into our lives to guide us towards the good. He knows our decision as it happens in the context of the trajectory of our lives. . In God that trajectory is alive, happening when it happens.

Given our free will, the capacity to participate in our creation and to know Him, He could be said to be “surprised” at who we become.

 

[Aloysium]

In the words of Pope Francis at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial museum, May 26, 2014:

“Adam, where are you?” (cf. Gen 3:9). Where are you, o man? What have you come to? In this place, this memorial of the Shoah, we hear God’s question echo once more: “Adam, where are you?” This question is charged with all the sorrow of a Father who has lost his child. The Father knew the risk of freedom; he knew that his children could be lost… yet perhaps not even the Father could imagine so great a fall, so profound an abyss! Here, before the boundless tragedy of the Holocaust, That cry – “Where are you?” – echoes like a faint voice in an unfathomable abyss…

Certainly it is not the dust of the earth from which you were made. The dust of the earth is something good, the work of my hands. Certainly it is not the breath of life which I breathed into you. That breath comes from me, and it is something good (cf. Gen 2:7).

No, this abyss is not merely the work of your own hands, your own heart… Who corrupted you? Who disfigured you? Who led you to presume that you are the master of good and evil? Who convinced you that you were god? Not only did you torture and kill your brothers and sisters, but you sacrificed them to yourself, because you made yourself a god.

Today, in this place, we hear once more the voice of God: “Adam, where are you?”

From the ground there rises up a soft cry: “Have mercy on us, O Lord!” To you, O Lord our God, belongs righteousness; but to us confusion of face and shame (cf. Bar 1:15).

A great evil has befallen us, such as never happened under the heavens (cf. Bar 2:2). Now, Lord, hear our prayer, hear our plea, save us in your mercy. Save us from this horror.

Almighty Lord, a soul in anguish cries out to you. Hear, Lord, and have mercy! We have sinned against you. You reign for ever (cf. Bar 3:1-2). Remember us in your mercy. Grant us the grace to be ashamed of what we men have done, to be ashamed of this massive idolatry, of having despised and destroyed our own flesh which you formed from the earth, to which you gave life with your own breath of life. Never again, Lord, never again!

“Adam, where are you?” Here we are, Lord, shamed by what man, created in your own image and likeness, was capable of doing.

Remember us in your mercy.

 

[Gorgias]

the temporal framework is constrained by his knowledge, precisely because He is outside of time.

No. If we were ancient Greeks, and believed in the Fates, then I’d say that you were absolutely correct. However, we’re not, and we don’t, and therefore, the construct you propose is precisely not what we say of God.

If it is known to Him, it is immalleable precisely because he is outside of the flow of time.

Not at all. It is known to Him precisely because you will choose it. There is only one difference, and it’s what (I suspect) is throwing you off, here: the ‘future’ is dark to you; there is only one way for you to know it… by living it. In fact, your ‘knowledge’ of the ‘future’ only appears once it’s already your past. Therefore, your knowledge is only of things that can not change. So, it’s very natural to think that knowledge of choices is knowledge of things that can not change. However, that’s a error of category, because it places God in the category of ‘created being’, with all the limitations that implies. He is not, though.

Let me try it a different way:

God knows all moments in time. He knows them because they are all present to Him simultaneously. Therefore, when He knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, it’s because he knows that instant in time… even if you haven’t made that choice yet. You’ll know it after you make the choice – He knows it eternally. That doesn’t make it any less your choice. It isn’t determined until you actualize it.

 

[benjamin1973]

You are exactly describing determinism, and calling it free will.

 

[Gorgias]

You are exactly describing determinism, and calling it free will.

[Your choice] isn’t determined until you actualize it.

Umm… ok…

 

[benjamin1973]

God knows what I will do, and he created both me and the system in which I operate. Did he create all that accidentally, or intentionally?

 

[clarkgamble1]

“He knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, … even if you haven’t made that choice yet.”

Then either you are forced to have the choice he knows, or He is wrong in his knowledge if you are allowed to make a different choice come tommorrow.

“It isn’t determined until you actualize it.”

It is determined when He knows it, supposedly from the beginning of time. This means He could write it down. That would effectively force you to have it, thereby actualizing his choice not yours.

 

[RedFan]

adrian1:

Why would God create people he knew would go to hell? I think this thing is absurd…

You think that is absurd?

Why do human beings have children?

1. We know our children will die someday, and that is the ultimate injustice, yet we have children while knowing this.
   2)Our children will suffer at some point, yet we still have children while knowing they will suffer.

Why do we have children?

Human beings have children because they have sex – not because they want their children to suffer and experience death some day. Sure, they know their children will experience these things, but having them anyway – or having sex with a risk of resulting pregnancy – is hardly the “ultimate injustice.” It’s not unjust at all. No person has a right to live physically forever, hence no person is being deprived of a right merely by virtue of physical death.

Here’s a nice test: Ask anyone whether they wish they had never been born. If the answer comes back “No, on balance I’m glad I was born”, then how can his/her parents have acted unjustly in propagating him/her?

 

[goout]

goout:

adrian1:

Why would God create people he knew would go to hell? I think this thing is absurd…

You think that is absurd?

Why do human beings have children?

1. We know our children will die someday, and that is the ultimate injustice, yet we have children while knowing this.
   2)Our children will suffer at some point, yet we still have children while knowing they will suffer.

Why do we have children?

Human beings have children because they have sex – not because they want their children to suffer and experience death some day. Sure, they know their children will experience these things, but having them anyway – or having sex with a risk of resulting pregnancy – is hardly the “ultimate injustice.” It’s not unjust at all. No person has a right to live physically forever, hence no person is being deprived of a right merely by virtue of physical death.

Here’s a nice test: Ask anyone whether they wish they had never been born. If the answer comes back “No, on balance I’m glad I was born”, then how can his/her parents have acted unjustly in propagating him/her?

Please re read the post. You completely misread what I said. We may even agree here.

 

[Gorgias]

“He knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow, … even if you haven’t made that choice yet.”

Yeah, you’re right: that was bad wording, on my part.

He knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow. Full stop.
You will make that choice tomorrow. Full stop.
He knows it in its context (i.e., tomorrow), not in the context of “today”… because He isn’t “in” today. He knows it eternally.

It is determined when He knows it, supposedly from the beginning of time. This means He could write it down. That would effectively force you to have it, thereby actualizing his choice not yours.

No. He doesn’t know it “from the beginning of time”, since that would put Him inside of time. He knows it eternally.

The “He could write it down” meme is a red herring. He wouldn’t write it down, since it would be an injustice to your free will and your ability to make your choice. God does not act contrary to His nature, and if, by His nature He gave you free will, He will not act contrary to that free will. That doesn’t make Him less omnipotent – it makes Him consistent to His nature.

 

[RedFan]

I don’t know how much, if anything, this adds to the discussion, but as I see it, God’s foreknowledge of an event is not causal of the event.

Suppose I am on the observation deck of the Empire State Building looking down on the corner of 34th Street and Fifth Avenue, and I see two cars speeding toward the intersection at 100 mph (although they cannot see each other). Just before they crash, I know to a certainty that they will crash. Does that mean I caused the crash? Clearly not. The free will choices of these two reckless drivers caused the crash.

 

[AlNg]

No. That’s an error in logic.

To say “already known” implies that it was known in time – in the past, as it were. So, no… it’s not the fact that, 2000 years ago, I would choose ice cream for breakfast.

Rather, outside the context of time, God knows. Not within that temporal framework, but outside of it.

No. Because 2000 years ago God was within time. He came down from heaven and was made Man. Jesus lived within time 2000 years ago and being God He was omniscient. He was within time and He was omniscient. Being omniscient, God knew 2000 years ago within time that I would choose strawberry ice cream. So it is wrong to say that God did not come down from heaven and was not made Man within time and that time frame was about 2000 years ago. .

 

[Vico]

Gorgias:

No. That’s an error in logic.

To say “already known” implies that it was known in time – in the past, as it were. So, no… it’s not the fact that, 2000 years ago, I would choose ice cream for breakfast.

Rather, outside the context of time, God knows. Not within that temporal framework, but outside of it.

No. Because 2000 years ago God was within time. …

God cannot be conditioned by creation. The human nature is created but not divine.

 

[Gorgias]

No. Because 2000 years ago God was within time. He came down from heaven and was made Man.

Nice try, but the claim here isn’t that God’s omniscience proceeds from Jesus’ Incarnation. Rather, it’s because He knows all, from His perspective in eternity. However, I have to give you credit – that’s the first time I’ve seen that angle attempted as a means of defeating the claims of free will vis-a-vis God’s omniscience…

Being omniscient, God knew 2000 years ago within time that I would choose strawberry ice cream. So it is wrong to say that God did not come down from heaven and was not made Man within time and that time frame was about 2000 years ago. .

Nope. Gotcha covered on that one, too. In the Gospels, Jesus says something that makes people scratch their heads. “What do you mean, Jesus,” they ask, “when you say that ‘only the Father knows the day and the hour’? Aren’t you God? Don’t you know, omnisciently, just as God knows?”

The reply is subtle: Jesus’ divine nature doesn’t “swamp” His human nature. Rather, St Paul tells us, Jesus “took on the form of a [human] and… humbled himself, becoming obedient.” In other words, in His humanity, Jesus deferred exercising all that belongs to His divine nature.

 

[AlNg]

Jesus says something that makes people scratch their heads. “What do you mean, Jesus,” they ask, “when you say that ‘only the Father knows the day and the hour’? Aren’t you God? Don’t you know, omnisciently, just as God knows?”

The reply is subtle: Jesus’ divine nature doesn’t “swamp” His human nature. Rather, St Paul tells us, Jesus “took on the form of a [human] and… humbled himself, becoming obedient.” In other words, in His humanity, Jesus deferred exercising all that belongs to His divine nature.

Not true according to Pope Saint Gregory the Great who wrote:

“Whence also this can be understood in a more subtle way, that the only-begotten, incarnate and made perfect man for us, did indeed in his human nature know the day and the hour of the judgment, but nevertheless did not know this from his human nature. What he knew in it he did not on that account know from it, because God-made-man knew the day and the hour of the judgment by the power of his Godhead” (Letter to Eulogius, Patriarch of Alexandria 10:21 [A.D. 600]).
So Jesus as God and Man did indeed know in his human nature, although not from his human nature.
So 2000 years ago Jesus knew that I would choose strawberry ice cream today at 2:30 both in his divine nature and in his human nature, but not from his human nature.

 

[clarkgamble1]

He wouldn’t write it down, since it would be an injustice to your free will and your ability to make your choice.

How would it be an injustice? Writing it down would simply give me the power of doing the opposite of what he wrote down. I say he could not write it down and thereby allow me to contradict his answer.

 

[Gorgias]

How would it be an injustice? Writing it down would simply give me the power of doing the opposite of what he wrote down.

Wait… let me make sure I’ve got this right – the whole complaint is that God’s knowledge constrains free will, and now the suggestion is that “writing down what happens” doesn’t constrain free will? Rather, it gives the opportunity to prove God’s omniscience?!?!

You’ve got to pick either one or the other and stick with it: either God’s knowledge constrains free will, or it doesn’t.

If it doesn’t, then writing it down no longer matters (since you already have free will and can do what you want).