Why would God create people he knew would go to hell?

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Timeless, to me, refers to the absence of time.
Fair enough. It also applies to eternity.
Actions cannot be carried out in the absence of time.
Human actions? Absolutely. God’s will? Well… we say it’s eternal, too, so God’s ‘acts’ are themselves eternal.
So, how would a timeless being carry out this data gathering exercise?
Great question. Not sure you’re gonna love the answer: it’s not a ‘data gathering exercise’. God is all-knowing, so He doesn’t ‘acquire’ information. He simply knows. No effort, no action, no exercise necessary.
You know… all you need to do is posit a 2D temporal plane of which we are only aware of one dimension… but that’s a whole other can of worms
Right; and that’s not what I’m gonna suggest, since that would imply that God is part of our existence. He’s not – He’s outside of it.
 
Thanks man… so it’s a given that “the action of creation” by god is the only one that doesn’t require any time to be carried out… because… otherwise it makes no sense. Gotcha!
 
Yes. Also, God’s act of creation is something willed from eternity, meaning creation always was, always is, and ever shall be His will.
 
What’s the difference between “our existence” and just plain “existence”?
 
Willed… so there’s the action of willing as well?
Willing and creation require no time.
 
What’s the difference between “our existence” and just plain “existence”?
Our existence is within the framework of the created universe. God’s existence is not.

Another way of looking at it is that we are created – that is, our existence is conditioned upon our parents (and theirs… and theirs … and theirs…) and upon creation itself – while God is uncreated. His existence is unconditioned and uncreated.
 
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Willed… so there’s the action of willing as well?

Willing and creation require no time.
God will’s both Himself and creation by one eternal act of will. There is no succession in either God, nor His willing of Himself or creation.
Aquinas, _Summa Contra Gentiles_Book 1: GOD, Ch. 19

THAT IN CREATION NO SUCCESSION EXISTS

[1] From the foregoing it is also clear that all creation is successionless. [2] For succession characterizes motion. But creation is not a motion, nor the term of a motion, as a change is; hence, there is no succession in it.

[3] In every successive motion, furthermore, there exists some mean between the extremes of the motion; for a mean is that which a continuously moved thing attains first before reaching the terminal point. But between being and non-being, which are as it were the extremes of creation, no mean can possibly exist. Therefore, in creation there is no succession.

[4] Again, in every making involving succession, a thing is in process of becoming prior to its actual production, as is shown in Physics VI [6]. But this cannot occur in creation. For the becoming which would precede the creature’s actual production would require a subject. The latter could not be the creature itself, of whose creation we are speaking, since, before being made, the creature is not. Nor would that subject lie in the maker, because to be moved is an act not of the mover, but of the thing moved. It therefore remains that some pre-existing matter of the thing produced would be the subject of the process of becoming. This is contrary to the idea of creation. It is therefore impossible that creation should involve succession.
CONTINUED…
 
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[5] And again. Every successive making must take place in time; since before and after in motion are numbered by time. But time, motion, and the thing that is in motion are all simultaneously divided. This, indeed, is manifestly so in local motion; for, if the motion is regular, half the motion will occupy half the time. Now, the division in forms corresponding to the division of time is in terms of intensification and diminution; thus, if a thing is heated to a certain degree in so much time, it is heated to a less degree in less time. Hence, there can be succession in motion, or in any making, so far as that which is affected by motion is divisible, either in point of quantity, as in local motion and in growth, or as regards intensity and remission, as in alteration. The latter, however, takes place in two ways: in one way, because the form, which is the term of the motion, is divisible with respect to intensity and remission, as is evidently the case when a thing is in process of motion toward whiteness; in another way, because a division of this kind occurs in dispositions to such a form; thus, the process whereby the form of fire comes to exist is successive on account of preceding alteration in the dispositions towards the form. But the very substantial being of the creature is not divisible in this way; for “substance is not susceptible of degrees. Nor do any dispositions precede creation, since there is here no pre-existing matter, and disposition is on the side of matter. It follows that in creation no succession is possible.

[6] Successiveness in the making of things, moreover, derives from a defect of the matter, which is not suitably disposed from the beginning for the reception of the form; so that, when the matter is already perfectly disposed for the form, it receives it immediately. For instance, because a transparent body is always in a state of complete readiness to receive light, it is illuminated at once by the presence of a luminous object; nor is there here any antecedent motion on the part of the illuminable thing, but only the illuminating agent’s local motion by which it becomes present. But nothing having the character of matter is prerequisite to creation; nor for the accomplishment of His action does God as agent lack anything which might accrue to Him afterwards through movement~ because He is immobile, as we proved in Book I of this work. It therefore remains that creation is instantaneous. Thus, a thing simultaneously is being created and is created, even as a thing at the same moment is being illuminated and is illuminated.

[7] And so it is that holy Scripture proclaims the creation of things to have been effected in an indivisible instant; for it is written: “In the beginning God created heaven and earth” (Gen. 1:1). And Basil explains that this beginning is “the beginning of time” and is necessarily indivisible, as Aristotle proves in i VI [3].
 
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pocaracas:
What’s the difference between “our existence” and just plain “existence”?
Our existence is within the framework of the created universe. God’s existence is not.

Another way of looking at it is that we are created – that is, our existence is conditioned upon our parents (and theirs… and theirs … and theirs…) and upon creation itself – while God is uncreated. His existence is unconditioned and uncreated.
I see… so there’s the abstract existence, of which god is also a part of, and existence within our Universe, of which God is not a part of.

So… why is it important that people believe that such an entity exists?
How can mankind come to know about such an entity without entering into the real of mind games/cognitive fallacies/that sort of thing?
 
I see… so there’s the abstract existence
Abstract? Who said that God is an abstraction? 😉
and existence within our Universe, of which God is not a part of.
He participates in it – after all, He created it from nothing! – but He is not part of it, per se.
So… why is it important that people believe that such an entity exists?
Umm… He created it. Without Him, we would not exist. That’s pretty important. 😉 🙂
How can mankind come to know about such an entity without entering into the real of mind games/cognitive fallacies/that sort of thing?
I guess I’d have to know what you mean by “mind games” and “cognitive fallacies” before I could answer that question… right? 😉
 
God is outside our existence
I don’t see how that can be true.
God was in our existence walking in a garden on earth as reported in Genesis.
God came down from heaven and became man according to the Creed so he was inside our existence 2000 years ago. .
God is present in the Eucharist every day. the Eucharist is inside our existence.
 
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I don’t see how that can be true.
Really? So, you’re saying that God is part of creation? C’mon… 😉
God was in our existence walking in a garden on earth as reported in Genesis.
Two thoughts:
  • First, you have to take that literally to reach that conclusion, and the Church does not demand that of us.
  • Second, “walking on earth” doesn’t mean “part of creation” … it just implies “participates in creation”. 😉
God came down from heaven and became man according to the Creed so he was inside our existence 2000 years ago. .

God is present in the Eucharist every day. the Eucharist is inside our existence.
That’s a different question. It brings into play the Incarnation, which is distinct from the question at hand.
 
So, you’re saying that God is part of creation?
I did not say so.
I claim that IMHO it is also possible for God to be inside our existence. And I gave three reasons for my opinion.
It brings into play the Incarnation, which is distinct from the question at hand.
I think it is relevant to the question as to whether or not God can be inside our existence.The Incarnation shows that it is possible.
 
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I said that IMHO God was inside our existence. And I gave three reasons for my opinion.
No… you demonstrated that God acts within our existence. This is subtly, but critically, a distinct point. 😉
I think it is relevant to the question as to whether or not God can be inside our existence.The Incarnation shows that it is possible.
That’s not the quesiton. It’s not “can God act within our existence”, it’s “does God exist within our existence”. The answers are “yes”, and “no”, respectively. 😉
 
Yes, you haven’t made the decision yet…to you. You are bound by time. I am saying that to someone not bound by time, you have already made the decision.
 
IMHO God is present within our existence. It is misleading to say that
God is outside our existence.
I think that God exists both inside and outside our existence. Genesis, the Incarnation and the Eucharist prove that God is ;present inside our existence.
 
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Yes, you haven’t made the decision yet…to you. You are bound by time. I am saying that to someone not bound by time, you have already made the decision.
No. It has to be one or the other.
Either I made my decision or I did not make my decision.
 
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