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tabcom
Guest
You are not going to find that doctrine in the Bible.
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tabcom
Guest
From where in the Bible do you get this notion?
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LilyM
Guest
Oh no, people who hate God usually want to exist and don’t dislike existence per se, just that they’d rather exist on their own terms than God’s and follow their own path rather than His.
This is what He graciously allows them to do - for all eternity. Problem is we don’t know what’s good for our eternal existence as God does so eternity away from Him inevitably sucks.
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Steve40
Guest
It’s a good question and I think the answer although somewhat of a mystery to me too, has to do with who we are and Who God Is. God does not owe us anything. We all deserve hell. But in His goodness He has offered a Way for us to have a relationship with Him. God does not need us. We need Him.I was thinking about hell and something doesn’t make sense to me. I know God loves you more than anyone could ever imagine, more than your parents, more than anybody. I also know that God does not send you to hell, you send yourself through your choices. But what I don’t get is this:
For example, if I screwed up a lot in my life and was left in a suffering position, no matter what I did I know my parents would be there to take me back. God loves you more than your parents, so if He saw you weeping, begging and pleading for mercy once in hell, I don’t see how He could just turning around and leave people to suffer ETERNALLY. God has the power to help us, I don’t understand how He could possibly just watch people suffer in hell.
Also, if one does go to heaven, we can assume they are compassionate, so, if heaven is supposed to be a place of complete happiness, I don’t see how a loving person could ever be truly happy in heaven knowing so many are suffering and will be suffering forever.
Can someone try to explain this to me?
Thank you for reading all that!
By definition His way is the only way. In the end we will fully understand.
J
JCarlson987
Guest
God loves people so much that he would absolutely hate to force anybody to worship him in heaven if they didn’t want to . . . so they go to hell, where they surely want to be. Now that we know this, lets go everybody. 
We got souls to protect from rebellion, or in a nicer word, sin.
We got souls to protect from rebellion, or in a nicer word, sin.
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Do you mean that people who go to hell don’t actively choose eternal hellish fire? Or do you mean they don’t choose to reject God, which results in hell?
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Atemi
Guest
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tabcom
Guest
I lean on Scripture for my understanding of who goes to Hell . . .
Why would God send people to Hell, because it pleases Him.
Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
Those that deny Christ, by twisting what He means, are ungodly and condemned before they were even born.
Jude 1:4 - For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
God doesn’t answer to anyone. He has a few that will do His will and the majority are fitted for destruction.
Matt 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and “many” there be which go thereat: because strait (narrow) is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and “few” there be that find it.
Romans 9:20-23 – Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed It, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter the power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour-- What if God willing to show his wrath, and make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath afore prepared unto glory.
Code:
* fitted - Greek: katartizo- to complete thoroughly; fit; frame; arrange; prepareIf God does all things for His good pleasure. And if it is the will of God to have vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, I’m going to believe God and not ask silly questions as to why would He do that.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Would you reconcile that statement, and your understanding of those Scriptures in light of:1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases** God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved** and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
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tabcom
Guest
The English word ‘all’ does not mean every man, woman, and child that ever lived.
“A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP” By JAMES AKIN posted on catholic.com.
"Aquinas stated, “Christ’s passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2, ‘He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.’” [ST III:48:2].
This is not to say there is no sense in which limitation may be ascribed to the atonement. While the grace it provided is sufficient to pay for the sins of all men, this grace is not made efficacious (put into effect) in the case of everyone. One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited. This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell."
Sufficient -
Being as much as is needed.
Efficacious -
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect.
Lets examine this notion of what is sufficient with what is efficacious. Isn’t the life\death\resurrection of Jesus known by all men? Yes. In other words, Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all men to know who Jesus was. Atheist\Buddist\Hindos\Islamist\Christia ns all know who Jesus was.
However, not all men are going to come to a knowledge of Christ. The bible teachs that only a few are. Jesus’ resurrection produced the desired effect within His elect family, i.e. conforming to the image of Christ.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I was thinking about hell and something doesn’t make sense to me. I know God loves you more than anyone could ever imagine, more than your parents, more than anybody. I also know that God does not send you to hell, you send yourself through your choices. But what I don’t get is this:
For example, if I screwed up a lot in my life and was left in a suffering position, no matter what I did I know my parents would be there to take me back. God loves you more than your parents, so if He saw you weeping, begging and pleading for mercy once in hell, I don’t see how He could just turning around and leave people to suffer ETERNALLY. God has the power to help us, I don’t understand how He could possibly just watch people suffer in hell.
Also, if one does go to heaven, we can assume they are compassionate, so, if heaven is supposed to be a place of complete happiness, I don’t see how a loving person could ever be truly happy in heaven knowing so many are suffering and will be suffering forever.
Can someone try to explain this to me?
Thank you for reading all that!
“Why would God not save people he loves from hell?” - because God is infinitely merciful. He loves us enough to allow us to hate Him, because we are able to do, if we really want to. This is a very terrible kind of love, but what would you have instead ? We are created with a freedom so great that we are free even to damn ourselves - that this is madness and a lie, does not make it any less possible.
Is God to save us despite our hating Him ? If so, Heaven itself would be a horror to us - it would be hell. How can those who hate God, to whom the Love of God is a torment, be expected to enjoy Him ? C. S. Lewis wrote well on this: “Hell is God’s last mercy to those who will let Him do nothing else for them.” ISTM that there is a hell for unrepentant sinners because God is Love - not despite His Love. Hell is terrible - it is also not undeserved. The greatest evil is, not that we can be punished eternally for our sins, but that we sin. Sin is what killed and murdered God Incarnate - deserved punishment never did that.As for eternity - it’s not endless time, or even time at all.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
God forbid ! 
That would amount to the lie that “not thy will, but Mine, be done.” No created will can take priority over that of God - it would enthrone sinful creatures on the Throne of God: which would be downright idolatry, even (maybe)satanolatry.Our entire happiness lies in being conformed to Christ - not in His ceasing to be Our Lord & Our God. That sort of thing is nothing short of self-deification, which is the lie of lies: because we are creatures, & not Our Creator. If we falsify our position toward God, everything else is falsified too, for everything else depends on our being rightly related to God.
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Bishopite
Guest
God accepts you back any time in this life, just repent, confess your sins and He will be there for you.[stina;3003691]I was thinking about hell and something doesn’t make sense to me. I know God loves you more than anyone could ever imagine, more than your parents, more than anybody. I also know that God does not send you to hell, you send yourself through your choices. But what I don’t get is this:
For example, if I screwed up a lot in my life and was left in a suffering position, no matter what I did I know my parents would be there to take me back. God loves you more than your parents, so if He saw you weeping, begging and pleading for mercy once in hell, I don’t see how He could just turning around and leave people to suffer ETERNALLY. God has the power to help us, I don’t understand how He could possibly just watch people suffer in hell.
Hypothetically speaking, would your parents take you back into their home if you while previously living with them, stole most or all of their posessions and sold them to buy drugs for your addiction?
(I’m not accusing of doing drugs, it’s just an analogy)
I think their “love” for you would be so great that they would have to kick you out of their home, would you?
People are in hell because NOT because God didn’t want to have a relationship with them, but because they wanted nothing to do with Him, so He gives them what the actually want out of love for them and His justice flows from His love. You’ve heard of “tuff love” well this IS as tuff as it gets. But remember God always gives us a chance to repent, His justice must.
What everyone in this world really wants is justice served, yet it is applied in this world sometimes in a correctly ordered way, and yet many times in an incorrectly disordered way so that what seems to some to be “justice” is actually unjust; e.g. the right to “choose.”Also, if one does go to heaven, we can assume they are compassionate, so, if heaven is supposed to be a place of complete happiness, I don’t see how a loving person could ever be truly happy in heaven knowing so many are suffering and will be suffering forever.
Can someone try to explain this to me?
Thank you for reading all that!
The righteous in heaven will rejoice NOT that there are people suffering in hell, but they will rejoice because God’s perfect justice (which is what they have willed unto death Mt 25:34-40) will have been perfectly accomplished.
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Bishopite
Guest
Yes, that’s good preaching. Thomistic theology says all recieve sufficient grace, but not all receive efficacious grace and we need efficacious grace
to be saved. The problem isn’t Christ’s sacrifice but how we apply His sacrifice in our lives; when we have a relationship with God, He expects us to live in that relationship.
Well, I would disagree. Not every person in China, Iran, or North Korea, deep South America, has heard of Jesus Christ, so you can’t say all people have heard of Jesus.
I think perhaps what you are missing here is the natural moral law put into every mans heart which Paul speaks of in Romans 2:14-16, “the gospel written on their hearts.” That’s why even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ can still be saved if they follow what grace they have received (Luke 12:48).
Yes, Christ’s sacrifice was objectively sufficient yet in order for it to acheive its desired effects in our lives as it takes our will too.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
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tabcom
Guest
A point of clarification – Paul was not addressing non-believers in his letter to the
Romans. In his opening salutation he addresses his audience as
Romans 1:6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
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Bishopite
Guest
What’s that got to do with the natural moral law?
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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
Precisely.God forbid !
That would amount to the lie that “not thy will, but Mine, be done.” No created will can take priority over that of God - it would enthrone sinful creatures on the Throne of God: which would be downright idolatry, even (maybe)satanolatry.
Our entire happiness lies in being conformed to Christ - not in His ceasing to be Our Lord & Our God. That sort of thing is nothing short of self-deification, which is the lie of lies: because we are creatures, & not Our Creator. If we falsify our position toward God, everything else is falsified too, for everything else depends on our being rightly related to God.
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tabcom
Guest
In return, I would ask, 'What’s the natural moral law have to do with the gospel being written on the hearts of the believers – only? Le’ts back up for a moment . . .With respects to your statement . . .
I was simply providing the context as to who Paul was addressing, that is, the gospel is written on the hearts of the believers. Not on the hearts of the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction that he mentions in Rom 9:23.
With that stated, could you please provide some clarity as to what you mean by natural moral law put into (not every man that ever lived hearts but . . ) the hearts of the believers?
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