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Per_Crucem
Guest
Are you saying the Church acted apart from revelation through the Holy Spirit, on its own authority?
That isn’t what I asked
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Randy_Carson
Guest
No, I am saying that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the early Church exercised its real, God-given authority.
Oh.That isn’t what I asked
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Okay, fair enough. But since the Church was then guided by new revelation, it is not comparable to how the Church operates in the post-apostolic period. The Church is not receiving new public revelation today. The faith has been delivered to the saints, it isn’t being delivered.
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Mystophilus
Guest
Sorry, but no. In Acts 7:13, Luke uses αδελφοι for all of the other sons of Jacob in their relationship to Joseph, regardless of the fact that only one of the eleven had the same mother.
Meanwhile, the term used in Luke 1 and 14, Mark 6, and Rom 9 and 16 is συγγενης, “belonging to the same clan”. English translations have misleadingly used different terms in different locations.
The difference between αδελφος and συγγενης is not, in Greek, a difference between having shared and not having shared a womb, but, instead, a difference between “person who has a close relationship” and “member of the wider family”. The former overlaps the latter.
Still, you should really read what the Orthodox say about this, because a/ this is not a matter of dogma for them, and b/ they have been reading the untranslated text for nearly two thousand years: orthodoxanswers.org/media/documents/didmaryhave.pdf
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Agreed. And with full authority, the Church continues to interpret, develop and discipline as well as preach, teach and proclaim the good news.
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Cathoholic
Guest
thetazlord
This is inappropriate of you running around telling Greeks about “the Greek” (here).
You understand Greek Christians were classically Catholic (the Orthodox would say they were classically Orthodox but all affirmed the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary) don’t you?
thetazlord (bold mine):
This is what happens with your home-made religion motif thetazlord.
Giving thanks for 2000 years of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
This is inappropriate of you running around telling Greeks about “the Greek” (here).
You understand Greek Christians were classically Catholic (the Orthodox would say they were classically Orthodox but all affirmed the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary) don’t you?
thetazlord (bold mine):
JOHN 19:25 25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister (adelphae), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
This is what happens with your home-made religion motif thetazlord.
Giving thanks for 2000 years of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
thetazlord.
A whole thread was recently began (here) using your comments as a springboard for the thread.
I think your paradigm of private interpretation combined with your tradition of sola Scriptura is part of the main reason why you likewise cannot seem to understand the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Others have evidently recognized this too.
A whole thread was recently began (here) using your comments as a springboard for the thread.
I think your paradigm of private interpretation combined with your tradition of sola Scriptura is part of the main reason why you likewise cannot seem to understand the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Others have evidently recognized this too.
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stewstew03
Guest
I’m hoping that, at some point, thetazlord will answer the questions I posted here (and repeated below for the sake of convenience).
- Is Jesus the High Priest described in the NT? (see Hebrews)
- Is Jesus the New Temple? (see Gospel of John)
- Do you read the OT in light of Jesus and the NT?
- Do you understand Ezekiel to be describing a literal third temple that will be built in Jerusalem?
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joe371
Guest
Yes, yes, yes and finally no. I never understood that whole third-temple-on-earth proposition in light of the fact that Jesus is the Temple.
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adawgj
Guest
Cause she got one perfect child
C
Cathoholic
Guest
joe371.
When stewstew03 said:
I think stewstew03 was asking in the sense:
Do YOU (thetazlord) understand Ezekiel to be describing a literal third temple that will be built in Jerusalem?
Of course Jesus IS the fulfillment of the Temple. That’s why WE are described as “living stones” built into this Temple, etc.
I think you joe371, stewstew03, and I are all on the same page on this. If thetazlord admits this too, it will pose issues for his denial of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary so he will have to craft yet another tradition of men (to accept Ezekiel 44) to cover for his tradition of denial of Mother Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.
EZEKIEL 44:1-2 1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. 2 And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.
Here are a couple of beautiful passages from Sts. Ambrose and Augustine confirming this 2000 year-old Catholic doctrine (St. Ambrose from the late 300’s A.D. and St. Augustine from the early 400’s A.D.):
ST. AMBROSE “Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity.” - Saint Ambrose of Milan (ca AD 390)
ST. AUGUSTINE “It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it…’ What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this - ‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this - ‘It shall be shut for evermore,’ but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth.” - Saint Augustine (ca AD 430)
When stewstew03 said:
I think stewstew03 was asking the question rhetorically.
I think stewstew03 was asking in the sense:
Do YOU (thetazlord) understand Ezekiel to be describing a literal third temple that will be built in Jerusalem?
Of course Jesus IS the fulfillment of the Temple. That’s why WE are described as “living stones” built into this Temple, etc.
I think you joe371, stewstew03, and I are all on the same page on this. If thetazlord admits this too, it will pose issues for his denial of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary so he will have to craft yet another tradition of men (to accept Ezekiel 44) to cover for his tradition of denial of Mother Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.
EZEKIEL 44:1-2 1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. 2 And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.
Here are a couple of beautiful passages from Sts. Ambrose and Augustine confirming this 2000 year-old Catholic doctrine (St. Ambrose from the late 300’s A.D. and St. Augustine from the early 400’s A.D.):
ST. AMBROSE “Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity.” - Saint Ambrose of Milan (ca AD 390)
ST. AUGUSTINE “It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it…’ What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this - ‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this - ‘It shall be shut for evermore,’ but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth.” - Saint Augustine (ca AD 430)
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clem456
Guest
I think the point should be made that understanding is not the same thing as affirming, or believing.
I do not really completely understand the perpetual virginity of Mary. Complete understanding is not required for faith. Faith requires…dare I say it… obedience and submission.
I accept the doctrine because I believe that Christ is alive, and his Church lives in him, and that it is not possible for the community he established to be ruptured from him. It takes an excessively pessimistic and individualistic Christian to deny the ongoing, life-giving, presence of Christ.
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zz912
Guest
I was responding to the claim by Taz that the Christians/Church based their teachings upon the OT. I was showing that was not the case, that the Church had equal authority to act and declare something. So they were NOT sola scriptura.
Originally Posted by thetazlord
And what this “community of believers” based their faith on were the OLD Testament Scripture, which separated them from the apostate Jewish leaders who added to these Scriptures, as well as contradicted them.
As to your second question, could you show me chapter and verse where the Bible proclaims all public revelation is ended? (and the verse in Revelation only pertains to Revelation, since the Gospel of John may have been written after it.)
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Clem456.
You said:
You said:
Well said but I am trying my best to give thetazlord the benefit of a doubt. “Misunderstanding” instead of “unbelieving” at this point.
J
joe371
Guest
However, I doubt it will prove to him that Mary was a perpetual virgin, in terms of typology. I am pretty sure he will simply see the immediate context which is the re-establishment of the temple in Israel i.e. the second temple, even though the description of said temple clearly points to something greater, namely the eternal temple of Jesus Christ.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
All Marian doctrine reflects upon HOW you also think of JESUS.
Excalibur. You asked:
Because the Blessed Virgin Mary wasn’t merely remaining in Her Virginity. The Blessed Virgin Mary IS a Virgin. That is part of WHO Mary is ontologically.
Mary is Jesus’ mother by nature (the Mother of God) and our Mother by grace (Universal Motherhood). Mother Mary is a fruitful Virgin.
God ordained a virginal marriage so as to have a protector and guardian for Mary and our Lord Jesus, (St. Joseph is “Guardian of the Redeemer”) yet keep Mary’s consecration as “Handmaiden of the Lord” completely intact.
St. Joseph knew he married a woman who evidently had taken the vow of consecrated virginity that Numbers 30 speaks of.
That is WHY when the angel comes to St. Joseph’s “wife” (Mary), she is described as “a virgin. And the virgin’s name was Mary.”
And when St. Gabriel the Archangel informs this married woman that she is to have a son, she is shocked.
How can a Virgin have a son??!!
Some of the fathers speculated this is WHY St. Joseph thought to put her away quietly (“I don’t belong in such a holy situation, so I’m outta here!”).
Scripture DOESN’T say: “she was found with child from who-knows-where”. It says Mary was found with Child of the Holy Spirit.
After all. St. Joseph was “righteous” and if he suspected adultery, he SHOULD have obeyed Scripture and turned Mary over to the Temple priests for trial. But he didn’t. Again, Scripture says "she was found with child of the Holy Spirit"!
Also having other kids would make it harder to believe in the Divine nature of Jesus.
Hope this helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
Excalibur. You asked:
.
Because the Blessed Virgin Mary wasn’t merely remaining in Her Virginity. The Blessed Virgin Mary IS a Virgin. That is part of WHO Mary is ontologically.
Mary is Jesus’ mother by nature (the Mother of God) and our Mother by grace (Universal Motherhood). Mother Mary is a fruitful Virgin.
God ordained a virginal marriage so as to have a protector and guardian for Mary and our Lord Jesus, (St. Joseph is “Guardian of the Redeemer”) yet keep Mary’s consecration as “Handmaiden of the Lord” completely intact.
St. Joseph knew he married a woman who evidently had taken the vow of consecrated virginity that Numbers 30 speaks of.
That is WHY when the angel comes to St. Joseph’s “wife” (Mary), she is described as “a virgin. And the virgin’s name was Mary.”
And when St. Gabriel the Archangel informs this married woman that she is to have a son, she is shocked.
How can a Virgin have a son??!!
Some of the fathers speculated this is WHY St. Joseph thought to put her away quietly (“I don’t belong in such a holy situation, so I’m outta here!”).
Scripture DOESN’T say: “she was found with child from who-knows-where”. It says Mary was found with Child of the Holy Spirit.
After all. St. Joseph was “righteous” and if he suspected adultery, he SHOULD have obeyed Scripture and turned Mary over to the Temple priests for trial. But he didn’t. Again, Scripture says "she was found with child of the Holy Spirit"!
Also having other kids would make it harder to believe in the Divine nature of Jesus.
Hope this helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
C
cena
Guest
I think Joseph thought she committed adultery. An angel told him about the child so what Mary said wasn’t enough for him.
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stewstew03
Guest
Of course, it cannot be the second temple, because that one was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD…
J
joe371
Guest
C
Cathoholic
Guest
cena.
Perhaps St. Joseph did think that. Some of the Fathers speculated in favor of that too.
Some Fathers even speculated about St. Joseph being confused over this basically asking himself, “How can this come about”, and concluding, “I will put Mary away quietly and God will reveal it to me if He wants different of me.”.
Interesting speculating upon what was going on in St. Joseph’s holy mind.
Perhaps St. Joseph did think that. Some of the Fathers speculated in favor of that too.
Some Fathers even speculated about St. Joseph being confused over this basically asking himself, “How can this come about”, and concluding, “I will put Mary away quietly and God will reveal it to me if He wants different of me.”.
Interesting speculating upon what was going on in St. Joseph’s holy mind.
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