Why would the Catholic Church put together a Book that disproves thier own doctrine?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JustaServant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Because if you use some other source/method that tells you to use sola scripura, then you are not relying on scripture only, and [the rhetorical] you have defeated your own claim.
See, that’s not how sola scriptura works. Sola scriptura is the practice of the Church to use scripture as the final norm to hold teachers, doctrines, etc. accountable. No where does it say other things cannot be used, just that they are not equal to scripture. Besides, scripture is clear in giving the Church the teaching and hermeunetic role. So, it is quite scriptural for the canon of scripture to be determined by the Church.

Not all communions agree on what the canon of scripture is. Even the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do not have the same canon of scripture. So, each communion looks to that which it considers for whatever uses they determine. Lutherans, for example, won’t use the D-C’s for doctrinal purposes, because of the historic dispute regarding them. We will, however, use them liturgically and in other ways.

Jon
 
Where in the Bible does it say not to?

Jon
To “boot” a computer means you load a program into it. But a computer must have a program that teaches it how to read programs. If a computer needs such a program, how do you get a computer to read it in the first place? Such a program is called a “bootstrap” program because the computer must “pull itself up by its own bootstraps.”

The whole point is, where is sola scriptura’s “bootstrap” passage? It doesn’t exist; IOW, since sola scriptura is not in the Bible, it means that sola scriptura must come from somewhere else; Therefore, you can’t rely on scripture alone, essentially breaking sola scriptura’s own rule. :yup:
 
To “boot” a computer means you load a program into it. But a computer must have a program that teaches it how to read programs. If a computer needs such a program, how do you get a computer to read it in the first place? Such a program is called a “bootstrap” program because the computer must “pull itself up by its own bootstraps.”

The whole point is, where is sola scriptura’s “bootstrap” passage? It doesn’t exist; IOW, since sola scriptura is not in the Bible, it means that sola scriptura must come from somewhere else; Therefore, you can’t rely on scripture alone, essentially breaking sola scriptura’s own rule. :yup:
Again, you are misunderstanding the practice of sola scriptura. The “sola” in sola scriptura is intended to confirm that scripture alone the final norm. The"sola" in sola scriptura is not stating that scripture alone is the only thing.

So, each time you say that since something is not in scripture, therefore sola scriptura isn’t true, you are asking me to defend something different than what we practice.
So, for instance, the Book of Concord is the collection of doctrinal documents of the Lutheran communion. The very first section in the confessions includes the three ancient creeds of the Church. Where do these creeds come from? They come from the early undivided Church, of which the confessions say:
And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.

Now, these are not found in scripture, but in the Church (notice no mention of scripture here, because an earlier paragraph deals with that). Sola scriptura does not exclude the Church (that would be a violation of scripture, in and of itself). It does not exclude Tradition. Sola scriptura merely says these things are not equal to scripture, when it comes to doctrine. That’s all! No “if it ain’t in the bible, it ain’t true” stuff. That’s not sola scriptura. Now, it is true that some later groups have falsely morphed it into that, but that’s not what it is.

Jon
 
Again, you are misunderstanding the practice of sola scriptura. The “sola” in sola scriptura is intended to confirm that scripture alone the final norm. The"sola" in sola scriptura is not stating that scripture alone is the only thing.

So, each time you say that since something is not in scripture, therefore sola scriptura isn’t true, you are asking me to defend something different than what we practice.
So, for instance, the Book of Concord is the collection of doctrinal documents of the Lutheran communion. The very first section in the confessions includes the three ancient creeds of the Church. Where do these creeds come from? They come from the early undivided Church, of which the confessions say:
And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.

Now, these are not found in scripture, but in the Church (notice no mention of scripture here, because an earlier paragraph deals with that). Sola scriptura does not exclude the Church (that would be a violation of scripture, in and of itself). It does not exclude Tradition. Sola scriptura merely says these things are not equal to scripture, when it comes to doctrine. That’s all! No “if it ain’t in the bible, it ain’t true” stuff. That’s not sola scriptura. Now, it is true that some later groups have falsely morphed it into that, but that’s not what it is.

Jon
They don’t call it “scripture alone” for nothing.
 
They don’t call it “scripture alone” for nothing.
Oh come on.

That’s incredibly shallow.

Would you like Protestants to apply the same logic to “Co-Redemptrix,” arguing that it must mean that Mary redeems the human race in exactly the same way as Jesus and is completely equal to Jesus in that regard?

Don’t argue by the surface meaning of a slogan–look at content and context.

Sola Scriptura isn’t even a term used by the Reformers, if it comes to that.

Edwin
 
They don’t call it “scripture alone” for nothing.
You know, one of the things I try very hard to do here is listen and understand what Catholics terach, and not try to put my own spin on it. I don’t use terms like “sola ecclesia”, and things like that.
I put a good faith effort into explaining to you how I understand the Lutheran usage of sola scriptura. And I find your comment dismissive. I am not asking you to agree with our hermeunetics, just to hear and understand our approach.

Jon
 
You know, one of the things I try very hard to do here is listen and understand what Catholics terach, and not try to put my own spin on it. I don’t use terms like “sola ecclesia”, and things like that.
I put a good faith effort into explaining to you how I understand the Lutheran usage of sola scriptura. And I find your comment dismissive. I am not asking you to agree with our hermeunetics, just to hear and understand our approach.

Jon
That is to say, you are not asking anyone to think like a Lutheran, just to understand how (some) Lutherans think.

Sounds familiar.

GKC
 
You know, one of the things I try very hard to do here is listen and understand what Catholics terach, and not try to put my own spin on it. I don’t use terms like “sola ecclesia”, and things like that.
I put a good faith effort into explaining to you how I understand the Lutheran usage of sola scriptura. And I find your comment dismissive. I am not asking you to agree with our hermeunetics, just to hear and understand our approach.

Jon
Sola scriptura (“Bible alone”)
The [first] objective [or formal] principle proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament, to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice, and asserts the right of private interpretation of the same, in distinction from the Roman Catholic view, which declares the Bible and tradition to be co-ordinate sources and rule of faith, and makes tradition, especially the decrees of popes and councils, the only legitimate and infallible interpreter of the Bible. In its extreme form Chillingworth expressed this principle of the Reformation in the well-known formula, “The Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible, is the religion of Protestants.” Protestantism, however, by no means despises or rejects church authority as such, but only subordinates it to, and measures its value by, the Bible, and believes in a progressive interpretation of the Bible through the expanding and deepening consciousness of Christendom. Hence, besides having its own symbols or standards of public doctrine, it retained all the articles of the ancient creeds and a large amount of disciplinary and ritual tradition, and rejected only those doctrines and ceremonies for which no clear warrant was found in the Bible and which seemed to contradict its letter or spirit. The Calvinistic branches of Protestantism went farther in their antagonism to the received traditions than the Lutheran and the Anglican; but all united in rejecting the authority of the pope. [Melanchthon for a while was willing to concede this, but only jure humano, or a limited disciplinary superintendency of the Church], the meritoriousness of good works, indulgences, the worship of the Virgin, saints, and relics, the sacraments (other than baptism and the Eucharist), the dogma of transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Mass, purgatory, and prayers for the dead, auricular confession, celibacy of the clergy, the monastic system, and the use of the Latin tongue in public worship, for which the vernacular languages were substituted.
 
sedonoman, in principle one should let Protestants say what they believe and not rely on a Catholic source. But in fact it seems to me that the definition you cite from the CE is an accurate one and agrees with what Jon has been saying.

Perhaps you can point to the ways in which it doesn’t. (If it doesn’t, that doesn’t make Jon wrong, for the reason I gave in my first sentence, and also because Lutherans don’t speak for all Protestants!)

Edwin
 
sedonoman, in principle one should let Protestants say what they believe and not rely on a Catholic source. But in fact it seems to me that the definition you cite from the CE is an accurate one and agrees with what Jon has been saying.

Perhaps you can point to the ways in which it doesn’t. (If it doesn’t, that doesn’t make Jon wrong, for the reason I gave in my first sentence, and also because Lutherans don’t speak for all Protestants!)

Edwin
In its extreme form Chillingworth expressed this principle of the Reformation in the well-known formula, “The Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible, is the religion of Protestants.”
So I guess it depends on the definition of “sola scriptura”. Seems to mean everything except the pope and Magisterium. How silly of me to conclude it means what it term says.
 
So I guess it depends on the definition of “sola scriptura”. Seems to mean everything except the pope and Magisterium. How silly of me to conclude it means what it term says.
Yes, it is pretty silly to interpret theological terms in such a simplistic way.

It’s the sort of thing I expect from fundamentalists, but Catholics should know better.

The point you’re missing is that the “sola” refers to infallible authority.

Edwin
 
40.png
sedonaman:
Perhaps it might be helpful for me to quote the confessions, becasue regardless of what New Advent says, or I say, or even Luther say, the Lutheran Confessions are the basis of Lutheran doctrine.
  1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.
Here it speaks clearly of dogmas, teachers, etc. Additionally, it says nothing of individual interpretation. In terms of doctrine, if I claim to be Lutheran, I cannot, on my own, interpret scripture in a way that contradicts Lutheran doctrine.
2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.
No exclusion of the ECF’s, early Church councils, etc. here. They are simply held to account to scripture.
3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.
We pledge ourselves to the Creeds, but even they are not at the level of scripture. That said, there is a recognition of the role of the Church to set doctrine and dogma, to teach. In terms of doctrine, I don’t practice sola scriptura, the Lutheran Church does.

The “sola” in sola scriptura is that scripture is sole norm that norms all other writings. There is a difference between holding dogmas and teachers accountable to scripture, and excluding them entirely.

So, for the New Advent piece:

Sola scriptura (“Bible alone”)
The [first] objective [or formal] principle proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament, to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice,
Close.
and asserts the right of private interpretation of the same,
Not in terms of doctrine, not for Lutherans. For example, my pastor (nor I) can profess via private interpretation, a symbolic presence regarding the Eucharist. The doctrine of the Lutheran Church is the real presence.
We do, however, practice individual interpretation regarding adiaphora, things indifferent. For example, since belief in the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is not an article of faith, I can either believe it or not. I happen to, in a general way, believe it.
in distinction from the Roman Catholic view, which declares the Bible and tradition to be co-ordinate sources and rule of faith, and makes tradition, especially the decrees of popes and councils, the only legitimate and infallible interpreter of the Bible
The disdinction is clearly stated. Catholics hold scripture and Tradition to be equal sources. We hold Tradtion to be secondary to scripture.
In its extreme form Chillingworth expressed this principle of the Reformation in the well-known formula, “The Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible, is the religion of Protestants.” .
Irrelevent to Lutherans. We, too, reject this.
Protestantism, however, by no means despises or rejects church authority as such, but only subordinates it to, and measures its value by, the Bible, and believes in a progressive interpretation of the Bible through the expanding and deepening consciousness of Christendom. Hence, besides having its own symbols or standards of public doctrine, it retained all the articles of the ancient creeds and a large amount of disciplinary and ritual tradition, and rejected only those doctrines and ceremonies for which no clear warrant was found in the Bible and which seemed to contradict its letter or spirit
OK.
The Calvinistic branches of Protestantism went farther in their antagonism to the received traditions than the Lutheran and the Anglican; but all united in rejecting the authority of the pope. [Melanchthon for a while was willing to concede this, but only jure humano, or a limited disciplinary superintendency of the Church],
I believe they are, in part referring to Melanchthon’s Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, which you can read. bookofconcord.org/treatise.php It does have some polemics, but the main points are early on.
the meritoriousness of good works, indulgences, the worship of the Virgin, saints, and relics, the sacraments (other than baptism and the Eucharist), the dogma of transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Mass, purgatory, and prayers for the dead, auricular confession, celibacy of the clergy, the monastic system, and the use of the Latin tongue in public worship, for which the vernacular languages were substituted.
Not exactly accurate for Lutherans. While not nearly enough practiced, we retain auricular confession, and Lutherans can pray for the dead.

Jon
 
So I guess it depends on the definition of “sola scriptura”. Seems to mean everything except the pope and Magisterium. How silly of me to conclude it means what it term says.
It is about as silly as protestants saying that, since Catholics worship the Blessed Virgin, they must think she is a Goddess, missing entirely the point that worship could mean hyperdulia, as well as latria.

Jon
 
sedonoman, in principle one should let Protestants say what they believe and not rely on a Catholic source. But in fact it seems to me that the definition you cite from the CE is an accurate one and agrees with what Jon has been saying.

Perhaps you can point to the ways in which it doesn’t. (If it doesn’t, that doesn’t make Jon wrong, for the reason I gave in my first sentence, and also because Lutherans don’t speak for all Protestants!)

Edwin
And other protestants don’t speak for Lutherans.

Thanks, Edwin

Jon
 
This is really enlightening. An adverb is now an adjective and a noun. I’m dumber than I thought.
You’re not dumb, just prejudiced and stubborn (and apparently not very well-versed in Latin).

Sola is an adjective, modifying “scriptura.”

Grammar has nothing to do with this–this is about context and usage.

I think that the slogan “sola scriptura” (not used by the Reformers themselves) is a flawed one (just as I wish Catholics would drop the term “Co-Redemptrix” even though I understand that what they mean by it is in fact not blasphemous).

But you have no excuse for insisting on interpreting it “literally” instead of looking at how it’s actually been used historically.

Just like many Catholics insist on defining all Protestantism based on the word “protest,” ignoring the actual historical meaning of the term “Protestant.”

Edwin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top