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JohnnyReb
Guest
LOL
No sugarcoating it eh, you nearly made me fall out of my chair in laughter
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No sugarcoating it eh, you nearly made me fall out of my chair in laughter
R
rjs1
Guest
What a wonderful quote!! The more I study about Henry VIII and the disaster he wrought, the more I wonder why any Anglican does not blush with shame when they remember that this vile despot started their church.
As an ex-Anglican I get angry when I remember the pathetic attempts of Anglican theologians to justify what Henry did.
His list of vile sin begins with his abominable treatment of his holy and totally loyal wife, Katherine of Aragon, then continues through his numerous adulterous affairs, his bloody execution of his former friends and advisers, Thomas More and Bishop Fisher, and his appalling devastation of the monasteries- which were the only social service agencies in Britain - simply to plunder their money to pay for his lavish spending and to give as bribes to many of the nobles so they would come over to his way of thinking.
To be a member of a church started by such a satanic man is embarassing. No wonder the Anglican Church is fading away into doctrinal obscurity.
A
AlegreFe
Guest
Because the Anglican church is NOT the Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter the Rock. I would only want to be in God’s Church, the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC & APOSTOLIC Church that was founded by Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago.
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son
of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you,
Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed
this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter (Kepha), and on this
rock (kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of
hell shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,
and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:16-19
Pax
Please visit my channel on YouTube; link in siggy below.
There are also many other great Catholic youtube channels that explain the Catholic faith. You can find some of those in my subcriptions list and also my subscribers list.
A
AlegreFe
Guest
C
Claudius
Guest
You say that the Church established by God is in trouble. I say that it is just another part of the plans of Satan to persecute the Church. All Catholics must pray and become more Holy so that we can be the shining light to lead all nations to God. No other church can do this. The facts are that God is blessing the Church right now and Catholics are becoming more and more aware of the truths of our faith as well as those outside. All of the lies about God are being exposed for what they are and we are showing that we are willing to put in the hard work to do God’s will. You see God’s Church in trouble because random protestant heretic 45,786 stands up in his no worship allowed prayer service and lies about the Catholic Church left and right. The facts are that the Church is showing the world the path to Holiness as we always have. Catholics are getting educated and some do leave, not because the Church is wrong, but because they lack faith. If they have no faith in Jesus then they should leave until they can get their life in order enough to be worthy to approach God’s alter.
C
Claudius
Guest
If you read the Aramaic version that our brother Catholics the Maronites, Chaldeans, and Syrians read you will see this:Because the Anglican church is NOT the Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter the Rock. I would only want to be in God’s Church, the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC & APOSTOLIC Church that was founded by Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago.
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son
of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you,
Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed
this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter (Kepha), and on this
rock (kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of
hell shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,
and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:16-19
Pax
Please visit my channel on YouTube; link in siggy below.
There are also many other great Catholic youtube channels that explain the Catholic faith. You can find some of those in my subcriptions list and also my subscribers list.
“I say, I to you, you are Rock on which Rock I will build my Church the gates of hell shall not surround.” All of the ‘you’ s here are in the singular. I don’t see how anyone can make any other meaning out of this then what the Catholic Church has always taught. This is the truth, which is why the Holy Spirit has protected this truth in the Church, makes the Church teach this truth to this day and inspired this truth to be put into the Gospel. The Catholic interpretation is the only one that makes any sense at all, AT ALL.
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GKC
Guest
Have you, by any chance, in your study about Henry VIII, read Scarisbrick’s bio of him? It’s the current standard work, following Pollard’s.
GKC
S
Steadfast
Guest
I don’t believe the Episcopate should be a church office distinct from that of the congregational elder.
I understand that it is a usage that developed very early in church history but I think that it did so as a matter of expediency and convenience during a particular period of church history and should not be treated as though it were divinely instituted.
Polity is a non-essential, and my church has de facto elected bishops in her district and synodical presidents but they remain a far cry from the office as it is usually filled in episcopally governed churches.
We remain, effectively, “episcopopresbygational”.
I understand that it is a usage that developed very early in church history but I think that it did so as a matter of expediency and convenience during a particular period of church history and should not be treated as though it were divinely instituted.
Polity is a non-essential, and my church has de facto elected bishops in her district and synodical presidents but they remain a far cry from the office as it is usually filled in episcopally governed churches.
We remain, effectively, “episcopopresbygational”.
J
jmcrae
Guest
That’s hilarious!! 
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East_and_West
Guest
ROFL. Are you serious? This gave me a good laugh. Christianity that was brought to the British Isles was Catholic. Angilicanism was founded by King Henry.
H
HannahLisa
Guest
As far as I know, King Henry VIII only took himself out from under the authority of the Pope so he could get a divorce and a son and plundered the monastaries because he wanted money. He did not actually make any doctrinal changes.
Under Elizabeth I, however, doctrinal changes were made.
Under Elizabeth I, however, doctrinal changes were made.
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GKC
Guest
Pretty close. Annulment, not divorce.
Edward’s reign was the first serious move.
GKC
S
Steadfast
Guest
1
1234
Guest
Well, here’s someone not afraid to canter to Canterbury, so to speak, from: www.geoconger.wordpress.com:
(emphasis mine)
"The Church of Ireland has appointed a former Roman Catholic priest to serve as Dean of Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin.
The Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Neill appointed the Ven. Dermot Dunne, Archdeacon of Ferns to the post following the death of the incumbent in December. Educated at Maynooth Seminary, Archdeacon Dunne was ordained a deacon in 1983 and priest in 1984 in the Roman Catholic Church. In 1995 he left the Roman Catholic Church and after study at the Church of Ireland Theological College was licensed as an Anglican priest in 1998.
Dr. Neill stated he Archdeacon Dunne was a “wise pastor, and very much a man of God. In his ministry, he is warmly supported by his wife, Celia whom we also look forward to welcoming into this Cathedral and Diocesan family. Dermot is taking on a challenge to build on and develop the work of those who have gone before, but he will be generously supported by a loyal chapter, board and the great team which is the Cathedral staff, and by the whole musical foundation.
As Dean, Dunne will be the thirty-fifth Dean of Christ Church Cathedral since 1539, when the last Augustinian Prior, Robert Paynswick was made Dean under reforms initiated by King Henry VIII.
The appointment of Dean Dunne has created a mild sensation in the Irish press, with some newspapers highlighting his rapid rise through the Church of Ireland after leaving the Roman Catholic Church to marry as a symbol of Catholicism’s problems in Ireland.
The Irish Independent stated the decline in Irish Catholic clergy numbers was “now reaching catastrophic proportions. Last year 160 priests died while only nine men were ordained, and 228 nuns passed away with only two newcomers taking religious vows.”
It argued that if the current trend continued, the number of priests in the country would drop from 4752 to 1500 over the next twenty years. Mandatory clerical celibacy was driving potential priests into the arms of the Church of Ireland, the newspaper argued."
(emphasis mine)
"The Church of Ireland has appointed a former Roman Catholic priest to serve as Dean of Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin.
The Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Neill appointed the Ven. Dermot Dunne, Archdeacon of Ferns to the post following the death of the incumbent in December. Educated at Maynooth Seminary, Archdeacon Dunne was ordained a deacon in 1983 and priest in 1984 in the Roman Catholic Church. In 1995 he left the Roman Catholic Church and after study at the Church of Ireland Theological College was licensed as an Anglican priest in 1998.
Dr. Neill stated he Archdeacon Dunne was a “wise pastor, and very much a man of God. In his ministry, he is warmly supported by his wife, Celia whom we also look forward to welcoming into this Cathedral and Diocesan family. Dermot is taking on a challenge to build on and develop the work of those who have gone before, but he will be generously supported by a loyal chapter, board and the great team which is the Cathedral staff, and by the whole musical foundation.
As Dean, Dunne will be the thirty-fifth Dean of Christ Church Cathedral since 1539, when the last Augustinian Prior, Robert Paynswick was made Dean under reforms initiated by King Henry VIII.
The appointment of Dean Dunne has created a mild sensation in the Irish press, with some newspapers highlighting his rapid rise through the Church of Ireland after leaving the Roman Catholic Church to marry as a symbol of Catholicism’s problems in Ireland.
The Irish Independent stated the decline in Irish Catholic clergy numbers was “now reaching catastrophic proportions. Last year 160 priests died while only nine men were ordained, and 228 nuns passed away with only two newcomers taking religious vows.”
It argued that if the current trend continued, the number of priests in the country would drop from 4752 to 1500 over the next twenty years. Mandatory clerical celibacy was driving potential priests into the arms of the Church of Ireland, the newspaper argued."
M
Metaron
Guest
Um, no, actually it was started by St.Joseph of Arimethea. Henry merely dettached it from the Pope.
They have no need to justify what he did. What he did (seeking annulment) was wrong.
Yes, it was terrible.
Actually, it wasn’t started by him. He just severed it from the Pope. And, “fading into obscurity” is wrong. With 80 million members worldwide, it’s the 3rd largest Christian Church.
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Metaron
Guest
Traditional Anglicanism is Catholic.
So, are you saying that Henry just conjured up a church on his own? Where did all the Bishops/priests/deacons come from? Did he create them ex nihlo? ROTFL.
LOL. I guess you didn’t know that the Church existed in Britain 1600 years before Henry! So oviously he didn’t create it, LOL.
J
jmcrae
Guest
If so (I don’t actually know) are you saying that St. Joseph of Arimethea started an organization in England that was separate from the original Church, and not related to it organizationally? (Where did the Bishops come from, then? Since St. Joseph of Arimethea didn’t have authority to ordain Bishops, that I know of.)
It looks Catholic, and copies a great many of the features of Catholicism, especially in its Liturgies.
Yes.
They schismated with him from the Catholic Church, just like Luther’s followers schismated with him to form the Lutheran church, and Calvin’s followers schismated with him to form the Calvinist church.
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GKC
Guest
“They have no need to justify what he did. What he did (seeking annulment) was wrong.”
“Wrong” would depend on what standard you measured it by; certainly, by the Church’s standard it was an every day occurence. In the 16th century, what Henry did was a commonplace, esp. at the state level at which dynastic marriages were made and unmade, for reasons of state. At that time, the Church had evolved a system to do two things simultaneously: protect the concept of a sacrament of marriage, by controlling it through the Church (matter/intent/form, and minister), and at the same time, permit the making and breaking of dynastic marriages, as realpolitic required, all within the sacramental system. This was done by a massively complicated system of impediments/dispensations/annulments, which, as a contemporary Scottish bishop said, rendered it unlikely that any couple could marry sacramentally completely without risk of an impediment. The impediments of affinity and consanquinity ran out to 6-8 degrees, both collateral and direct. The impediments of the justice of public honesty involved various states of prenuptual and premarital agreements. The system was directly designed so that a given marriage, assuming sufficient personal or political cause, could find a suitable impediment to recieve a decree of nullity, if required. And it happened every day. Invalid matter in the sacrament (a couple with an absolute or diriment impediment) meant there was no sacramental marriage, hence a decree of nullity was granted.
Henry was a piker in the business. His sister Mary’s first husband required a dispensation to marry his first wife. Mary’s second husband required a complicated decree of nullity (similar in nature to what Henry’s case was) to marry Mary. His sister Margaret received 2 decrees of nullity, for political reasons, the first on grounds so flimsy that Henry scolded her. And Henry and Catherine, of course, required a dispensation from Julius to marry, which, IAW the rules of the day, probably was faulty, even if not for the reasons Henry advanced. And even Arthur and Catherine had required a small technical dispensation, for their marriage.
It was how the Church managed the system, in which marriage was a sacrament, and at the same time, country married country, interest married interest, dynasty maried dynasty. And all these had to be able to shift, as required, for political reasons. The system was incredibly complex, until Trent took it in hand.
What Henry did was play the game as it was played. But an Emperor trumps a King.
For details, Scarisbricks’ bio of Henry. For mind-numbing details, Kelly’s MATIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII.
History is simply not simple.
GKC
“Wrong” would depend on what standard you measured it by; certainly, by the Church’s standard it was an every day occurence. In the 16th century, what Henry did was a commonplace, esp. at the state level at which dynastic marriages were made and unmade, for reasons of state. At that time, the Church had evolved a system to do two things simultaneously: protect the concept of a sacrament of marriage, by controlling it through the Church (matter/intent/form, and minister), and at the same time, permit the making and breaking of dynastic marriages, as realpolitic required, all within the sacramental system. This was done by a massively complicated system of impediments/dispensations/annulments, which, as a contemporary Scottish bishop said, rendered it unlikely that any couple could marry sacramentally completely without risk of an impediment. The impediments of affinity and consanquinity ran out to 6-8 degrees, both collateral and direct. The impediments of the justice of public honesty involved various states of prenuptual and premarital agreements. The system was directly designed so that a given marriage, assuming sufficient personal or political cause, could find a suitable impediment to recieve a decree of nullity, if required. And it happened every day. Invalid matter in the sacrament (a couple with an absolute or diriment impediment) meant there was no sacramental marriage, hence a decree of nullity was granted.
Henry was a piker in the business. His sister Mary’s first husband required a dispensation to marry his first wife. Mary’s second husband required a complicated decree of nullity (similar in nature to what Henry’s case was) to marry Mary. His sister Margaret received 2 decrees of nullity, for political reasons, the first on grounds so flimsy that Henry scolded her. And Henry and Catherine, of course, required a dispensation from Julius to marry, which, IAW the rules of the day, probably was faulty, even if not for the reasons Henry advanced. And even Arthur and Catherine had required a small technical dispensation, for their marriage.
It was how the Church managed the system, in which marriage was a sacrament, and at the same time, country married country, interest married interest, dynasty maried dynasty. And all these had to be able to shift, as required, for political reasons. The system was incredibly complex, until Trent took it in hand.
What Henry did was play the game as it was played. But an Emperor trumps a King.
For details, Scarisbricks’ bio of Henry. For mind-numbing details, Kelly’s MATIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII.
History is simply not simple.
GKC
M
Metaron
Guest
Some contend that St.Joseph of Arimethea’s founding of the Church in the British Isles is legendary-- but, regardless, it was founded in the British Isles early on, and, was a part of the Universal Roman Catholic Church.
It is Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.
They did “schismate” (if that’s what you call it) from the Catholic Church (just as the Orthodox “schismated” from them.) However, Luther’s and Calvin’s followers not only schismated, but did away with the episcopate, priesthood and Sacraments.
Note: I agree with you that Henry was wrong to separate the Anglican Church from the Universal Church. But he didn’t just “conjure the church” up out of nothing. It had existed since apostolic times. He had no right to separate it from the Holy Father.
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GKC
Guest
" so (I don’t actually know) are you saying that St. Joseph of Arimethea started an organization in England that was separate from the original Church, and not related to it organizationally? (Where did the Bishops come from, then? Since St. Joseph of Arimethea didn’t have authority to ordain Bishops, that I know of.)"
Metaron is advancing a sort of pious legend theory of how the Church first reached England. In this case, it would certainly be from the RCC, as you say. (This theory is usually counterpointed against the idea that when Gregory sent Augustine over, that was the origin of the Church; it wasn’t). Unless he is also advancing the Celtic theory.His point is that Henry wasn’t the origin of the Church in England, and no one thinks he was. But he certainly took the Church “private”, that is, schismatic.
GKC
Metaron is advancing a sort of pious legend theory of how the Church first reached England. In this case, it would certainly be from the RCC, as you say. (This theory is usually counterpointed against the idea that when Gregory sent Augustine over, that was the origin of the Church; it wasn’t). Unless he is also advancing the Celtic theory.His point is that Henry wasn’t the origin of the Church in England, and no one thinks he was. But he certainly took the Church “private”, that is, schismatic.
GKC
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