A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
And what of the many great saints and theologians who have used this title for Mary? Do you consider them all in error?
Why wouldn't any of the authors of the New Testement mention anything about praying to ot venerating Mary?
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J
JM3
Guest
Rolling your eyes doesn’t make you right, it only makes you uncharitable.God, not humans. So God dishonored Abraham by putting him to the test?
M
Mintaka
Guest
Going back to an earlier point, I saw people mention reverence for Sarah, but nobody mentioned the great devotion to Rachel. (Whose tomb was practically next door to Bethlehem.) Jews, Muslims, and Christians still all visit the tomb to ask for Rachel’s intercession, particularly against infertility.
There’s a ton of info on the Web, including the custom of collecting stones from the tomb area to use as helpful relics during childbirth, the tying and wearing of red threads or strings, dancing around the tomb, physically spreading prayers over it, and so on.
So yeah, that’s how the Jews behaved, and still behave, at the tomb of a Jewish matriarch. And sure enough, we have an OT reference to Rachel’s intercession by the prophet Jeremiah, recording God’s own words.
The graves of Sarah, Rebecca, and Leah are all in the Cave of Machpelah, right along with many of the Biblical patriarchs. And again, the place is regarded as a holy place of prayer where Jews seek their intercession.
The surprising part is not that Christians would venerate the saints, including the apostles and Mary. The surprising part is that anyone would think Christians shouldn’t.
There’s a ton of info on the Web, including the custom of collecting stones from the tomb area to use as helpful relics during childbirth, the tying and wearing of red threads or strings, dancing around the tomb, physically spreading prayers over it, and so on.
So yeah, that’s how the Jews behaved, and still behave, at the tomb of a Jewish matriarch. And sure enough, we have an OT reference to Rachel’s intercession by the prophet Jeremiah, recording God’s own words.
So there you go. It was totally okay to revere Rachel, and the Lord was totally okay with her interceding from Sheol for all her living descendants who were being hauled off to Babylon.
The graves of Sarah, Rebecca, and Leah are all in the Cave of Machpelah, right along with many of the Biblical patriarchs. And again, the place is regarded as a holy place of prayer where Jews seek their intercession.
The surprising part is not that Christians would venerate the saints, including the apostles and Mary. The surprising part is that anyone would think Christians shouldn’t.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
What of those who do NOT share this understanding? Are they all in error?
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AveOTheotokos
Guest
I must admit that I am not aware of any particular saints who do not share this understanding. I definitely don’t know everything about all the saints, but of the saints who I have studied, I can’t recall any example of them speaking against this, but again, I am definitely no expert.
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
Any opposition I have read has been not over the concept itself, but to declaring the title dogmatically because of problems and confusion it might cause.
The concerns are that Mary’s unique role in God’s plan for human salvation is already recognized in Catholic theology and is sufficiently acknowledged within her other titles. By making it dogma, it runs the risk and danger of causing confusion and possibly hurting relations with other Christians because of it being misunderstood that it elevates Mary to an equal status with Christ as sole Redeemer (which it doesn’t).
The concerns are that Mary’s unique role in God’s plan for human salvation is already recognized in Catholic theology and is sufficiently acknowledged within her other titles. By making it dogma, it runs the risk and danger of causing confusion and possibly hurting relations with other Christians because of it being misunderstood that it elevates Mary to an equal status with Christ as sole Redeemer (which it doesn’t).
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
This article has some really great parallels between the history of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the the history of Mary as Co-Redemptrix:
The Immaculate Conception and the Co-redemptrix
The article makes a good point towards the end in mentioning:
“The fact that the Papal Magisterium has never deemed it necessary to call for a public prohibition of the discussion of Mary Co-redemptrix due to controversy and its subsequent scandal for the faithful, (88) let alone prohibiting even private discussion as it did for the Immaculate Conception debate, (89) should give a better historical context in which to understand the arguably lesser degree of theological disagreement over Marian Coredemption.”
Dogmatic teachings usually arise in response to heretical teachings that lead the faithful astray. If this teaching was a problem, then why would the Church have allowed it to be promulgated for the past 1800+ years?
Why didn’t they put a stop to it back when St. Irenaeus said:
“By obeying, she became a cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”
and:
“Thus then, the knot of the disobedience of Eve was untied through the obedience of Mary.”
If this concept is heretical, then we probably would have heard about it by now, right?
The Immaculate Conception and the Co-redemptrix
The article makes a good point towards the end in mentioning:
“The fact that the Papal Magisterium has never deemed it necessary to call for a public prohibition of the discussion of Mary Co-redemptrix due to controversy and its subsequent scandal for the faithful, (88) let alone prohibiting even private discussion as it did for the Immaculate Conception debate, (89) should give a better historical context in which to understand the arguably lesser degree of theological disagreement over Marian Coredemption.”
Dogmatic teachings usually arise in response to heretical teachings that lead the faithful astray. If this teaching was a problem, then why would the Church have allowed it to be promulgated for the past 1800+ years?
Why didn’t they put a stop to it back when St. Irenaeus said:
“By obeying, she became a cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”
and:
“Thus then, the knot of the disobedience of Eve was untied through the obedience of Mary.”
If this concept is heretical, then we probably would have heard about it by now, right?
J
Jennifer132
Guest
Bear with me, as I am new to the Catholic faith, and Mary has been difficult for me to understand, since, growing up Protestant, she was not on my radar…also forgive me, if this has all been mentioned, I didn’t have time to read the entire thread.
I want to address veneration first. Veneration is giving honor to someone, and this concept is actually quite biblical. Paul many times exhorts, (even uses strong language like the words “must imitate”) the church to imitate him personally (1 Thess. 1:6, 2 Thess. 3:6, Phil 3:17-20, 1 Corin 11:1). Imitation is certainly a form of honoring someone. We have an example in the Saints, including Mary, to follow, a sure way to become holy, by imitating their lives. And being holy, after all is what we were made to do (1 Peter talks about the importance of holiness, for example). Paul says we should give honor to others-Romans 2:10 says, “there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good”. 1 Corinthians 12, in the section on the unity of the body of Christ says that God constructed “the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it…if one part is honored, all parts share its joy”. In Galations 6:10 Paul tells us: “let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of faith”. Certainly Mary belongs to the family of faith! 1 Thess. 1:6 even goes on to point out that the purpose of imitating the mature in faith is to then become models for others, so they may imitate us!
I think one of the keys to the Mary issue and veneration, praying to saints, etc, is understanding the idea of there being one body of Christ, that is the Church. We are not a body here on earth and a separate body in heaven, with nothing to do with one another. God designed it so that, "the eye cannot say to the hand, I do not need you, nor again the head to the feet, I do not need you. (1 Corin 12:12 and following). There are many other passages on this reality of unity among the body–Romans 12:4-5, Eph 4:1-6, Colossians 3:15 to name a few.
If we are all one body, then it follows that we all need each other. The saints are not dead-they are alive (Mark 12:26-27) and in the presence of God. Hebrews 12:1 indicates that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Who are they? Well, if you read chapter eleven, we see that these witnesses who are watching our lives unfold are none other than the saints-Abraham, Moses, Gideon, David and others-a great cloud of them!
We also know that the body is exhorted to pray for one another. Romans 15:30, Colosians 4:3, 2 Thess 3:1, Eph 6:18-19 all exhort us to pray for one another. So it makes sense that the saints, as members of the body of Christ, may pray for us, who are also members of his body. Also, we do see a picture of this in Revelation 5:8.
The key to the Queen of Heaven bit is understanding the ancient Jewish concept of the queen being the mother of the King, rather than the wife. I have to be honest and say, I haven’t read a lot on this, but I know the example used is that of Bathsheeba and her son Solomon. Try giving the story a look in 1 Kings 2. Also, we see Mary crowned as a queen in Rev12:1.
Immaculate conception: for this, it’s critical to understand the concept of Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant. Look at the parralels in the stories-the ark carried in it bread (Jesus is the Bread of Life, a shepherd’s staff (Jesus is the good shepherd), and the Law (Jesus is the Word made flesh). The real presence of God was thought to be inside the ark, just as the real presence of God, that is, Jesus, dwelt in Mary. There are even more parralels if you read the two stories side by side: David leaps before the Ark, John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeth’s womb. David asks how it is that the Ark would come to him, Elizabeth asks how the Mother of her Lord would come to her. The Ark remained in the house for three months, Mary remained with Elizabeth three months. The Ark set out for Judah, Mary set out for Judea (aka Judah). We also see the Ark in heaven in Rev 11. You can check these passages out in 2 Samuel 6 and Luke 1.
and when you do, notice what happens to Uzzah when he reaches out to touch the Ark. (He dies). The Ark was so holy, no one could even touch it. So if Mary is the New Ark, it would follow that she be holy. And she is: the angel tells her that she is full of grace and highly favored in God’s sight. Mary herself says the Lord has done great things for her.Co-redemptress: I’m certain someone will correct me if i am wrong, but I do not think she has been called co-redemptress officially in the catechism (or as dogma). Nevertheless we must realize that if she is at some point officially given the title, it only applies in as much as we are all mediators and “redeemers” due to Christ who lives in us. Mary has a special role in that through her “yes” Christ came in the world, but the truth is, we are all mediators in the sense that we can pray and involve ourselves in helping people come to Christ, who is the only mediator between the Father and man. 1 Corin 9:22, Jude 1:22-23, James 5:19-20.
Yes, there have been some who have not understood Mary’s role properly-both by ignoring her or by making her a god. Both should be corrected. But I hope I have given you some things to chew on and ponder regarding Mary. I am still pondering many of these mysteries myself. God bless you, OP, I will say a prayer for you today!
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
Also JB Brother 4446, you said the following in this thread about the perpetual virginity of Mary:
If you would trust St. Ireneaus on this, why wouldn’t you trust what he said in my previous post?
R
RPRPsych
Guest
Good post!Bear with me, as I am new to the Catholic faith, and Mary has been difficult for me to understand, since, growing up Protestant, she was not on my radar…also forgive me, if this has all been mentioned, I didn’t have time to read the entire thread.
I want to address veneration first. Veneration is giving honor to someone, and this concept is actually quite biblical. Paul many times exhorts, (even uses strong language like the words “must imitate”) the church to imitate him personally (1 Thess. 1:6, 2 Thess. 3:6, Phil 3:17-20, 1 Corin 11:1). Imitation is certainly a form of honoring someone. We have an example in the Saints, including Mary, to follow, a sure way to become holy, by imitating their lives. And being holy, after all is what we were made to do (1 Peter talks about the importance of holiness, for example). Paul says we should give honor to others-Romans 2:10 says, “there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good”. 1 Corinthians 12, in the section on the unity of the body of Christ says that God constructed “the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it…if one part is honored, all parts share its joy”. In Galations 6:10 Paul tells us: “let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of faith”. Certainly Mary belongs to the family of faith! 1 Thess. 1:6 even goes on to point out that the purpose of imitating the mature in faith is to then become models for others, so they may imitate us!
I think one of the keys to the Mary issue and veneration, praying to saints, etc, is understanding the idea of there being one body of Christ, that is the Church. We are not a body here on earth and a separate body in heaven, with nothing to do with one another. God designed it so that, "the eye cannot say to the hand, I do not need you, nor again the head to the feet, I do not need you. (1 Corin 12:12 and following). There are many other passages on this reality of unity among the body–Romans 12:4-5, Eph 4:1-6, Colossians 3:15 to name a few.
If we are all one body, then it follows that we all need each other. The saints are not dead-they are alive (Mark 12:26-27) and in the presence of God. Hebrews 12:1 indicates that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Who are they? Well, if you read chapter eleven, we see that these witnesses who are watching our lives unfold are none other than the saints-Abraham, Moses, Gideon, David and others-a great cloud of them!
We also know that the body is exhorted to pray for one another. Romans 15:30, Colosians 4:3, 2 Thess 3:1, Eph 6:18-19 all exhort us to pray for one another. So it makes sense that the saints, as members of the body of Christ, may pray for us, who are also members of his body. Also, we do see a picture of this in Revelation 5:8.
The key to the Queen of Heaven bit is understanding the ancient Jewish concept of the queen being the mother of the King, rather than the wife. I have to be honest and say, I haven’t read a lot on this, but I know the example used is that of Bathsheeba and her son Solomon. Try giving the story a look in 1 Kings 2. Also, we see Mary crowned as a queen in Rev12:1.
Immaculate conception: for this, it’s critical to understand the concept of Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant. Look at the parralels in the stories-the ark carried in it bread (Jesus is the Bread of Life, a shepherd’s staff (Jesus is the good shepherd), and the Law (Jesus is the Word made flesh). The real presence of God was thought to be inside the ark, just as the real presence of God, that is, Jesus, dwelt in Mary. There are even more parralels if you read the two stories side by side: David leaps before the Ark, John the Baptist leaps in Elizabeth’s womb. David asks how it is that the Ark would come to him, Elizabeth asks how the Mother of her Lord would come to her. The Ark remained in the house for three months, Mary remained with Elizabeth three months. The Ark set out for Judah, Mary set out for Judea (aka Judah). We also see the Ark in heaven in Rev 11. You can check these passages out in 2 Samuel 6 and Luke 1.
Co-redemptress: I’m certain someone will correct me if i am wrong, but I do not think she has been called co-redemptress officially in the catechism (or as dogma). Nevertheless we must realize that if she is at some point officially given the title, it only applies in as much as we are all mediators and “redeemers” due to Christ who lives in us. Mary has a special role in that through her “yes” Christ came in the world, but the truth is, we are all mediators in the sense that we can pray and involve ourselves in helping people come to Christ, who is the only mediator between the Father and man. 1 Corin 9:22, Jude 1:22-23, James 5:19-20.
Yes, there have been some who have not understood Mary’s role properly-both by ignoring her or by making her a god. Both should be corrected. But I hope I have given you some things to chew on and ponder regarding Mary. I am still pondering many of these mysteries myself. God bless you, OP, I will say a prayer for you today!
For the queen mother given a place of honour at the wedding of her son (a figure of Mary, her Son Jesus Christ and the church being the bride), see Psalm 45 (Vulgate 44).
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
Wonderful post Jennifer, and quite impressive for someone new to the Catholic faith!
You are correct that the title is not in the catechism, though I would like to mention that the concept is is definitely there:
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
973 By pronouncing her “fiat” at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
I trust St. John the Beloved who gives NO insinuation of the sort. Did we ever give Joseph, His foster father, that kind of attention?
Personally I think we would be giving more honor to Mary by following her command to do whatever her Son tells us to do than confusing our seperated brethren.
M
Mintaka
Guest
Of course we give St. Joseph that kind of attention!
Sheesh, there are a bunch of patristic texts on the death of St. Joseph, with Jesus and Mary gathered around him. “The Death of St. Joseph” is one of the Coptic Christian feastdays (July 20, or Abib 26 in Egyptian months).
Here’s the Coptic text from the 300’s called “Joseph the Carpenter,” in a modern translation by Anthony Alcock. The frame of the text is that Jesus tells Joseph’s life story to His Apostles, so that they will learn how to deal honestly with people.
This story has a lot of interesting features (the teller thinks that the stable-cave of Bethlehem was actually Rachel’s tomb!). But Joseph is described as being such a great guy that he lives to be 111 in perfect health, and with all his teeth and eyesight and hearing.
After St. Joseph’s death, young Jesus promises that anyone who gives hospitality in Joseph’s name will never want, that anyone who gives a cup of wine to a stranger or widow on his death’s feast day will get to eternal life, that anyone who copies out the text will be under Joseph’s protection in this world, and that anyone who names his son Joseph will have no evil or pestilence in his house.
Joseph goes through various cycles of popularity. But whenever he’s popular, he’s usually venerated in very high terms.
Sheesh, there are a bunch of patristic texts on the death of St. Joseph, with Jesus and Mary gathered around him. “The Death of St. Joseph” is one of the Coptic Christian feastdays (July 20, or Abib 26 in Egyptian months).
Here’s the Coptic text from the 300’s called “Joseph the Carpenter,” in a modern translation by Anthony Alcock. The frame of the text is that Jesus tells Joseph’s life story to His Apostles, so that they will learn how to deal honestly with people.
This story has a lot of interesting features (the teller thinks that the stable-cave of Bethlehem was actually Rachel’s tomb!). But Joseph is described as being such a great guy that he lives to be 111 in perfect health, and with all his teeth and eyesight and hearing.
After St. Joseph’s death, young Jesus promises that anyone who gives hospitality in Joseph’s name will never want, that anyone who gives a cup of wine to a stranger or widow on his death’s feast day will get to eternal life, that anyone who copies out the text will be under Joseph’s protection in this world, and that anyone who names his son Joseph will have no evil or pestilence in his house.
Joseph goes through various cycles of popularity. But whenever he’s popular, he’s usually venerated in very high terms.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Do we call him Co-Redeemer?
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
John’s gospel and Revelations both contain quite a few pearls of wisdom pointing back to Mary.
Joseph is GREATLY underappreciated and often times forgotten when people pray. However, Joseph was not conceived without sin, didn’t live without ever committing sin, was not a virgin who conceive a child by the Holy Spirit, and he didn’t contribute the human DNA, the womb to grow in, or the milk which nursed our Lord and Savior, Jesus, nor was he the “New Eve”, nor did he watch from the foot of the cross and endure the suffering of our Lord’s passion in a way that only a mother can.
Joseph was a great and just man, but Mary was the most perfect creature of God, and her fiat sets her above all the other saints.
Mary is no way on the same level of the Trinity nor is she a part of it, but she has a unique and special role in heaven and in Salvation history.
B
BornInMarch
Guest
Mary was still alive when the New Testament was still written.
M
MT1926
Guest
Agreed.
Yes he did, but you did not address what I said in my post. Do you think it is OK for Jesus to disrespect his Mother?
M
MT1926
Guest
You must have missed my earlier post on how the term “Co-Redeemer” is defined in the Catholic faith.
I will re-post it here for you.
So based on the CATHOLIC definition of Co-redeemer, sure Joseph was most likely a Co-redeemer in the same way we are all Co-Redeemers.
A
AveOTheotokos
Guest
Exactly. Don’t knock the title without fully understanding the meaning. This is from one of the links I posted:
“The term “co-redemptrix” is properly translated “the woman with the redeemer” or more literally “she who buys back with [the redeemer].” The prefix “co” comes from the Latin term “cum” which means “with” and not “equal to.” Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture.”
Here is another site with some good info. It says the following:
What then does the Church mean when she calls the Blessed Virgin Mary the “Co-redemptrix?” Let us first look at the etymological meaning of the title itself. The prefix, “co-” derives from the Latin term “cum,” which means “with” and not “equal to.” Although some modern languages, such as English, sometimes use the prefix “co” with connotations of equality, the true Latin meaning remains “with.” And in English, for example, the prefix “co” is at other times properly used to signify “with” in a context of subordination or dependence, in cases such as “pilot and co-pilot”; “star and co-star”; “Creator and co-creator” in the theology of the body and nuptial love, and so forth.
In the revealed word of God, St. Paul identifies the early Christians as “co-workers with God” (1 Cor. 3:9) in a meaning and context of “co” which cannot possibly denote equality. So, too, are we “co-heirs” with Christ (Rom. 8:17), without meaning that we are equally heirs to heaven as the only-begotten Son of God is heir to Heaven.
The Latin verb, “redimere” (or re(d)-emere), signifies literally ” to buy back.” The Latin suffix, “-trix” is feminine, denoting “one who does something.” The etymological meaning of Co-redemptrix therefore refers to the “woman with the Redeemer,” or more literally: “the woman who buys back with.”
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