Why wouldn't God forgive all our sins at once?

[slaveforChrist]

Since God is Love " 1 John 4:8 … because God is love." “Psalm 36:7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God! The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings” Forgiving “For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you” Why wouldn’t God forgive all of our sins at the moment of true repentance ?? “Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise”

 

[Church_Militant]

What is specifically your point and how does that relate to the Catholic faith?

 

[Celticnovice]

So we can choose to become glorified through his love.

 

[slaveforChrist]

What is specifically your point and how does that relate to the Catholic faith?

My point is that God in his good unchanging nature would offer grace and frogivness to us all at once at the moment of true repentance. It relates to the catholic faith in that you seek to be justified by Christ so do I. I meant no offence my friend, I just wanted to know how catholics respond to this point of view of God’s forgiveness since his nature is gracious and forgiving. I mean after all isn’t this place for discussion and non Catholics are welcome here and I haven’t broken the rules in any way, have I?

May God bless you

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Your conclusion does not follow from the quoted texts. Your premise is that since God is loving and merciful, it would be more fitting for God to forgive all future sins in addition to all past sins, since that is more merciful than forgiving only past sins. This reasoning is problematic since we could say that it would be even more merciful for God to forgive men who do not have true repentance for their sins. What you quoted shows that contrition is the condition of forgiveness, and that is the principal reason why God does not forgive future sins unconditionally, because it is impossible for us to have contrition for that which does not het exist. If future sins were forgiven unconditionally, then why would be any penalty for sin in the first place?

 

[Robyn_p]

My point is that God in his good unchanging nature would offer grace and frogivness to us all at once at the moment of true repentance. It relates to the catholic faith in that you seek to be justified by Christ so do I. I meant no offence my friend, I just wanted to know how catholics respond to this point of view of God’s forgiveness since his nature is gracious and forgiving. I mean after all isn’t this place for discussion and non Catholics are welcome here and I haven’t broken the rules in any way, have I?

May God bless you

Actually, Catholics do believe God offers us grace and forgiveness all at once at the moment of baptism! I think where we differ is that we don’t believe that is the end of the story. And neither does the Bible teach that.

Since we have these promises beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and *** SPIRIT *** and make holiness perfect in fear of God (2 Cor 7:1)

Now wait a minute. Paul is talking to Christians here. Why would he say this? If all our sins are completely forgiven, past, present, future, why would we need to “make holiness perfect”???

Or how about Heb 12:14

STRIVE for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see The Lord

Again, what is going on here?? Aren’t we already perfectly holy by God’s grace? But we can fall from that grace(Gal 5:4) or not participate with it fully. It’s not God’s grace or mercy that’s lacking, it’s us!!! We have to cooperate.

For IF we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we *** CONFESS our sins*** he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:7-9)

See, The Catholic Church doesn’t place any limits on God’s mercy. We believe at baptism we are completely cleansed! But we have to continue to walk in the light as John says. We can and do still sin even after our initial justification. Which is why John says if anyone says he has no sin he is a liar, because we do! But that is what confession is for. When we confess our sins, God cleanses us from all unrighteousness. That is what the Church has always taught.

By the way, I’m glad you’re here! I hope we can learn a lot from dialoging with each other. Welcome to CAF:thumbsup:

 

[fhansen]

Since God is Love " 1 John 4:8 … because God is love." “Psalm 36:7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God! The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings” Forgiving “For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you” Why wouldn’t God forgive all of our sins at the moment of true repentance ?? “Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise”

If He’s going to forgive future sins before they even happen then why demand faith and repentance-and possibly holiness, depending on ones theology-at all? Why not just forgive and save everyone universally?

 

[UntimelyBourn]

As I understand it He did. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross atoned for all of our sins, past present, and future. However, in order for this grace to take effect in our lives, we have to acknowledge our sinful behavior, ask for forgiveness, make amends with those our sin has affected, and resolve to sin no more. That is why Jesus established the sacrament of penance, in which we ask for and receive the forgiveness made possible by His death.

 

[Robyn_p]

As I understand it He did. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross atoned for all of our sins, past present, and future. However, in order for this grace to take effect in our lives, we have to acknowledge our sinful behavior, ask for forgiveness, make amends with those our sin has affected, and resolve to sin no more. That is why Jesus established the sacrament of penance, in which we ask for and receive the forgiveness made possible by His death.

:yup:

 

[Nita]

Since God is Love " 1 John 4:8 … because God is love." “Psalm 36:7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God! The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings” Forgiving “For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you” Why wouldn’t God forgive all of our sins at the moment of true repentance ?? “Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise”

Which moment of true repentance?
I sinned many times after the first time I truly repented of a sin/s I committed. God does forgive our sin at the moment of true repentance – but we have to turn to Him and confess them, seek forgiveness of it. How can we do that if we haven’t even committed the sin yet? We don’t know what sin to seek forgiveness of until we have committed it.

We need to repent after every sin we commit. Therefore we need to have many moments of true repentance.

 

[snarflemike]

Remember what God’s goal is for us. It is not to forgive our sins and let us go on sinning. It is to remake us totally, to bring us, with our cooperation, into perfection. And we resist him at every turn, even those who (are, are being, will be) saved. Everything God does for us and to us must be viewed with this ultimate goal in mind.

 

[slaveforChrist]

Your conclusion does not follow from the quoted texts. Your premise is that since God is loving and merciful, it would be more fitting for God to forgive all future sins in addition to all past sins, since that is more merciful than forgiving only past sins. This reasoning is problematic since we could say that it would be even more merciful for God to forgive men who do not have true repentance for their sins. What you quoted shows that contrition is the condition of forgiveness, and that is the principal reason why God does not forgive future sins unconditionally, because it is impossible for us to have contrition for that which does not het exist. If future sins were forgiven unconditionally, then why would be any penalty for sin in the first place?

Actually I agree to some point with what you disagreed on . First I want to claify, my main point was that God requires only repentance to be forgiven. I do believe that God gives grace and forgiveness to unrpentant men, it manifists through repentance. He is the one who grants true repentance " 2 Timothy 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,".Even though it is a command for men to repent and believe the gospel.

Well since Christ bore our traspasses “2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” we stand in Christ as forgiven and righous. Don’t get me wrong repentance is essential, if it was genuine repentance it will grow and continue on till the end, it results in holiness and sanctification. “2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”. I also believe there is no penalty for sin since “Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”

 

[brb3]

Since God is Love " 1 John 4:8 … because God is love." “Psalm 36:7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God! The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings” Forgiving “For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you” Why wouldn’t God forgive all of our sins at the moment of true repentance ?? “Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise”

He does. All confessed, and all not recalled — at the time of your contrite, complete confession. You get a specific absolution and a general one … upon your Confession/Water Baptism/Confirmation in H.S.

Now, it is errant to believe all those committed thereafter in time don’t also need to be removed by confession/repentance.

 

[slaveforChrist]

Actually, Catholics do believe God offers us grace and forgiveness all at once at the moment of baptism! I think where we differ is that we don’t believe that is the end of the story. And neither does the Bible teach that.

Now wait a minute. Paul is talking to Christians here. Why would he say this? If all our sins are completely forgiven, past, present, future, why would we need to “make holiness perfect”???

Or how about Heb 12:14
Again, what is going on here?? Aren’t we already perfectly holy by God’s grace? But we can fall from that grace(Gal 5:4) or not participate with it fully. It’s not God’s grace or mercy that’s lacking, it’s us!!! We have to cooperate.

See, The Catholic Church doesn’t place any limits on God’s mercy. We believe at baptism we are completely cleansed! But we have to continue to walk in the light as John says. We can and do still sin even after our initial justification. Which is why John says if anyone says he has no sin he is a liar, because we do! But that is what confession is for. When we confess our sins, God cleanses us from all unrighteousness. That is what the Church has always taught.

By the way, I’m glad you’re here! I hope we can learn a lot from dialoging with each other. Welcome to CAF:thumbsup:

Firstabel Thank you very much for welcoming me . I believe God offers frogivness for all past and future sins, “Hebrews 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” And I don’t believe it is the end of the story, as a matter of fact if it did it isn’t true salvation or conversion. “Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”

In Heb12:14 Paul isn’t saying by your works of holiness you will be saved nor to keep your salvation. He is saying that without holiness or without havinng a renewed mind, no one enters the kingdom. Every saved person must bear fruit and will bear fruit, where by conforming by the Spirit to the image of Christ. It’s a warning to those who think they are saved but still continue in sin. For cuople reasons if you continue reading after this verse you find out Paul is warning about walking in truth not in sin and unbelief. Also before Paul talks about being disciplined by the Lord because we are children of God “Heb12:8 If you are not disciplined…then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.” And If children we inherit “1 Peter 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,”. Also at the end “Heb:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,”

Gal5:4 talks about those whos trying to be justified by the works they have cut themselves from Grace, since it is by faith we are justified.“Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ…”

I do believe we will sin after being saved but are sanctified and kept by God unto redemption, “John10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand” “1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Sorry for thr lengthy message, I had to . May God bless you

 

[brb3]

Don’t get me wrong repentance is essential, if it was genuine repentance it will grow and continue on till the end, it results in holiness and sanctification. “2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!”. I also believe there is no penalty for sin since “Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,”

David was Reborn, Anointed by God … as shepherd boy. Yet, he sinned gravely later in life … and had to repent. God condemned him for murder and adultery sins. He had to confess and do penance for them.

Many modern-day Christians … also commit adultery, etc in their lives … and must do same as did David. Being ChristIan doesn’t make you perfect, ever thereafter. And, as long as you REMAIN IN CHRIST, there is ‘no condemnation’ for you. Look again at the words of Romans 8:1 …“for those who are in CJ”.

 

[slaveforChrist]

If He’s going to forgive future sins before they even happen then why demand faith and repentance-and possibly holiness, depending on ones theology-at all? Why not just forgive and save everyone universally?

It’s true it does depend on one’s theology, but is it biblical. My answer would be because God chose so “Ephesians1 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us** for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace”

But don’t you believe Christ bore our sins and there I believe I was forgiven, it was applied the moment I believed , and trusted in Christ as my saviour and my high priest.

“Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” Do you believe you have peace with God?? Christ came to give us peace, we are accepted in Christ.

God bless**

 

[thenobes]

Since God is Love " 1 John 4:8 … because God is love." “Psalm 36:7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God! The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings” Forgiving “For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you” Why wouldn’t God forgive all of our sins at the moment of true repentance ?? “Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise”

John would have a problem with this (1 John 1):

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins,*** he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins*** and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

John says “will forgive” not “has forgiven already”". So your interpretation conflicts with the Bible clearly says. Ongoing confession of our sins is necessary.

peace
steve

It’s true it does depend on one’s theology, but is it biblical. My answer would be because God chose so “Ephesians1 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us** for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace”

But don’t you believe Christ bore our sins and there I believe I was forgiven, it was applied the moment I believed , and trusted in Christ as my saviour and my high priest.

“Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” Do you believe you have peace with God?? Christ came to give us peace, we are accepted in Christ.

God bless**

Well, what you state here is just an interpretation, among others. And what you say in no way argues against the need to repent to gain forgiveness of future sins.

And catholics have peace with God if, not having committed any mortal sin, they confess to God and repent of any sin they do have, or, belieing themselves to have committed mortal sin, confess that sin or sins to a representative of the Church and Christ, the elder (priest) appointed by the bishop to discern and pardon that sin and repentance on the part of the sinner.

peace
steve
brb3;10663231:

He does. All confessed, and all not recalled — at the time of your contrite, complete confession. You get a specific absolution and a general one … upon your Confession/Water Baptism/Confirmation in H.S.

Now, it is errant to believe all those committed thereafter in time don’t also need to be removed by confession/repentance.

Here is what Jesus said would happen to the one would did not remain in Him.

John 15

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Is He speaking idly here? (I am speaking rhetorically, of course. Christ never talks idly.)
How can you be “in Him” and not be part of the Body of Christ, that is, saved? But if that is so it is equally evident one can become unsaved and burnt up in the fire(in Hell).

peace
steve

 

[Heliotropium]

But don’t you believe Christ bore our sins and there I believe I was forgiven, it was applied the moment I believed , and trusted in Christ as my saviour and my high priest.

You became able to partake in the merits of Christ’s sacrifice when you received the sacrament of Baptism. If your belief was all you needed then there would be no need for baptism. Your faith alone is not sufficent. Sacraments my friend are the means in which we receive the grace God offers to us and priests are the ministers of said sacraments (baptism being the one exception). Furthermore it must be said that these graces are effective in so much as we correspond our will to God’s will.

 

[brb3]

thenobes:

Here is what Jesus said would happen to the one would did not remain in Him.

John 15

Is He speaking idly here? (I am speaking rhetorically, of course. Christ never talks idly.)
How can you be “in Him” and not be part of the Body of Christ, that is, saved? But if that is so it is equally evident one can become unsaved and burnt up in the fire(in Hell).

peace
steve

Thenobes …

You have identified the KEY scriptures on this question. John 15 forbids us to entertain/imagine we can receive forgiveness ‘in advance’ … for upcoming sins that we are guaranteed to commit. Even the best of Christians acknowledge many venial sins everyday … and occasional mortal ones.

Christ expects/commands us to always confess our post-baptismal errs … and we have an obligation, even a mandate to do so.

I remember in my earlier Protestant days … reading John 15, and knowing it didn’t square with my OSAS beliefs. Somehow, I could justify my beliefs anyway … thinking some scriptures were a mystery, and not fully understandable…believing Christ would never reject us, once we were adopted.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Actually, Catholics do believe God offers us grace and forgiveness all at once at the moment of baptism!

And this happens again each time we go to Confession (all sins are forgiven, even if we have forgotten some and did not confess them).

God does not forgive future sins. When you think of it, Once Saved, Always Saved is really a belief that God forgives future sins that we never need to repent of. This is not what the Church (or the Bible) teaches.