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Robyn_p
Guest
Yep:thumbsup: I wasn’t trying to imply that though. In the rest of my post I made clear we do sin in the future and we have to confess our sins to receive that forgiveness. Sorry if I was a little unclear about that, after a long day my thoughts sometimes tend to get jumbled.
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Robyn_p
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And Catholics believe as well, that God offers us his forgiveness for all our sins. That’s what confession is for. When we confess our sins, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. But we have to repent first. I guess where we really differ is just how that forgiveness is applied to our lives, not whether God does or doesn’t forgive us.Firstabel Thank you very much for welcoming me
I think you misunderstand my point. My point was that obviously the writer of the Hebrews was addressing Christians who had already been redeemed by Christ. Yet he still says they must STRIVE for holiness. Striving implies working for something you don’t have yet. Salvation obviously then isn’t a one time done deal or we would not have to strive.
So then, we agree, what we do does matter for our eternal salvation.
And Catholics respond to those verses with an AMEN! But none of those are saying that we are forgiven of all our sins past, present and future.
No, not quite. Read the whole context, Paul isn’t saying if we do any works we are denying grace. He specifically is talking about works of the Old Covenant, like circumcision:
Galatians 5:2-4:
Paul is saying that if we go back to the Old covenant and it’s laws, which have no power to save us, we are denying Christ, and so fall from grace. He’s not condemning works in general here, but works apart from Christ, which the Catholic Church also teaches have no power to save us.
But anyways, my original point with Galatians 5:4 was just to show that it is possible to fall from grace.
If we continue to cooperate with Him, yes. And IF we confess our sins. 1 Jn 1:7-9 makes it pretty clear to me at least. We must walk in the light as he is in the light for his blood to to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And when we fall, we must confess our sins. But that word, “IF” is crucial. Forgiveness is not automatic.
God is guarding us, YES! But that in no way takes away our free will to turn away from him. No one can take us from him, but notice, Jesus never says we can’t abandon him ourselves. We must endure to the end to be saved(Mt 10:22) we must remain in him to have eternal life.(Jn15:4-6) And how do we remain in him?? Jesus tells us himself. “If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love”(Jn 15:9) We must be faithful unto death, in order to receive eternal life. (Rev 2:10) Having to endure, remain and be faithful to the end is not the language of security as OSAS would put it. If there was no risk of us losing our salvation, that language makes no sense. But it is the language Jesus himself uses.
Don’t worry about it. I’m notorious for lengthy messages myself. I’m trying to get better though really.Sorry for thr lengthy message, I had to
Thanks for responding BTW. God bless!!
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Lincoln7
Guest
He does, and it is wonderful. True peace with God.
“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” - Heb 10:14 ESV.
John Gill notes; “he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified; that is, who are sanctified by God the Father, Jde 1:1 or, who are set apart by him in eternal election, from the rest of the world, for his own use, service, and glory, to a state of grace and holiness here, and happiness hereafter; for this is not to be understood either of their being sanctified in Christ, though the Syriac version reads, “that are sanctified” in him, or by his Spirit, though both are true of the same persons; these Christ, by his sacrifice, has perfected, and has perfectly fulfilled the law for them; he has perfectly expiated their sins; he has obtained the full pardon of all their sins, and complete redemption; he has perfectly justified them from all things, and that for ever; which shows the continued virtue of Christ’s sacrifice, in all generations, to all the elect of God, and the fulness and duration of their salvation; and so Christ by his one sacrifice did what the law, and all its sacrifices, could not do, Hebrews 10:1.” - bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm
I would reject any view that did not accept that God has forgiven all the sins of his elect, once and for all time.
Kind regards
Lincs
“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” - Heb 10:14 ESV.
John Gill notes; “he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified; that is, who are sanctified by God the Father, Jde 1:1 or, who are set apart by him in eternal election, from the rest of the world, for his own use, service, and glory, to a state of grace and holiness here, and happiness hereafter; for this is not to be understood either of their being sanctified in Christ, though the Syriac version reads, “that are sanctified” in him, or by his Spirit, though both are true of the same persons; these Christ, by his sacrifice, has perfected, and has perfectly fulfilled the law for them; he has perfectly expiated their sins; he has obtained the full pardon of all their sins, and complete redemption; he has perfectly justified them from all things, and that for ever; which shows the continued virtue of Christ’s sacrifice, in all generations, to all the elect of God, and the fulness and duration of their salvation; and so Christ by his one sacrifice did what the law, and all its sacrifices, could not do, Hebrews 10:1.” - bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm
I would reject any view that did not accept that God has forgiven all the sins of his elect, once and for all time.
Kind regards
Lincs
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Heliotropium
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I could never wrap my head around the idea that we could commit grievous sin and still be in the state of grace. Something about that just seems like a contradiction
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Darryl_B
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I understand the “all at once” to be a product of our modern age. Instant coffee, Instant cooking (nowadays even a microwave takes too long), Two-minute noodles, Fast food, and Instant salvation. Done … Next.
Good things take time and effort.
Good things take time and effort.
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Robyn_p
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Of course his sacrifice is sufficient, but how does the fruits of it get applied to our lives? If they are all forgiven at once, why do we have to repent at all? Notice that the quote you referenced even says itself that we are BEING sanctified. Salvation is a process.
We have to take all of scripture in context. Including the ones that talk about perseverance to the end, and confessing our sins in order to receive forgiveness, as well as the fact that Christ’s blood is sufficient for our redemption.
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QNDNNDQDCE
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Ironically, the Catholic Vulgate uses the perfect tense. “Una enim oblatione consummavit in sempiternum sanctificatos.”
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Lincoln7
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Yes sanctification is a process. However justification, which includes the once for all remission of sins is an event, a declarative act of the just God. Just as he above verse from Hebrews demonstrates. “them that are being sanctified”, namely the elect, are perfected once for all time; before the eyes of God they stand perfectly just, in the right. However their sanctification, their earnest striving and growth in holiness (which follows as a result of justification, not as the cause of it), is an ongoing process.Of course his sacrifice is sufficient, but how does the fruits of it get applied to our lives? If they are all forgiven at once, why do we have to repent at all? Notice that the quote you referenced even says itself that we are BEING sanctified. Salvation is a process.
We have to take all of scripture in context. Including the ones that talk about perseverance to the end, and confessing our sins in order to receive forgiveness, as well as the fact that Christ’s blood is sufficient for our redemption.
Contextually Hebrews contrasts the new and old covenants; that the process seen under the old of continual sacrifices to take away sins never really cleansed anyone, and that the new renewed covenant with its once for all perfecting sacrifice of Christ has indeed perfected people in securing their forgiveness before God. With this context in mind I am unsure how one could turn the once for all nature of this sacrifice into a process, it doesn’t fit to me.
Reformed theology does not for a moment ignore the need for perseverance (indeed there are whole books written on it) or confession.
Kind regards
Lincs.
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Darryl_B
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From what I can tell the Scriptures state that Jesus died once for all sins meaning that there was no other sacrifice required it was all sufficient. That was a single event for remission of sins.
So the hand of God is extended in mercy and grace to everyone and it is up to us to continuously reach out to God not just as a once off event. Otherwise it implies that I am justified for all my future sins which I don’t even know what they are yet.
It would be like saying “God forgive me I have sinned …” And then God saying “stop, before you carry on already sorted.”
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Heliotropium
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It doesn’t fit my friend, because you do not see Christ’s Sacrifice as a Sacrament. You see Christ’s Sacrifice as a past event when in reality Christ’s Sacrifice and the merits of it are not subject to time because they are to be continually applied to humanity for their sanctification. This is where Protestant theology is confusing because while it claims Christ’s Sacrifice is the perfect and true Sacrifice for sins, it at the same time tries to pass off this idea that God no longer wants a sacrifice offered to Him. Now yes God doesn’t want ***vain ***sacrifices offered to Him; however, no where in Scripture does it even propose the God doesn’t want us to offer to Him the same perfect and true Sacrifice; the one on Calvary, His only Begottten Son!
[bibledrb]Genesis 14:18[/bibledrb]
Here from the very begining God shows the manner in how the sacrament of the True Sacrifice will be offered to Him.
[bibledrb]Matt. 26:26-28[/bibledrb]
Here we have Christ, the High Priest, the True Sacrifice, offering Himself under the same manner of bread and wine. How could He do this if He had not died yet on the cross? Well it is because His Sacrifce is not subject to TIME! It is not a past or future Sacrifice, but an ever present one!
[bibledrb]1 Cor. 11:24-25 [/bibledrb]
Do this! Meaning don’t stop offering God sacrifice but rather always offer Him the same Sacrifice; Christ Jesus our Lord! For what? For the remission of sins!
In Mass the Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled, but only in Mass since Protestants do not offer sacrifice!
[bibledrb] Malachi 1:11 [/bibledrb]
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brb3
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Use your common sense on this … and the rest of scripture on this topic.
We are forgiven for ALL sins in past. Going forward in our futures … all new sins committed must be confessed … and the same blood of Christ @ Calvary will cover them too — provided we repent and confess them as sins in need of forgiveness.
Would you tell your husband on the day you married him---- “I not only forgive you your past fornications … but, any and all you may decide to commit against me until your death”. “You needn’t even mention them to me, or consider them an infraction against our marriage covenant”.
That would be nuts !! And, your husband wouldn’t take you seriously, I would hope !!
Christians are married to the Lord, via our covenant oath to believe and be disciples. So … same applies to us with Him … as in our marriages to spouses.
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zz912
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Don’t forget, there is an ALTAR in Heaven. Christ presents eternally His Sacrifice to God the Father. In the Mass we participate in this Sacrifice.
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zz912
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To the OP:
I think it informative to take a step back and look at the forest instead of the trees. Take a look at the New Testament, ESPECIALLY the letters. Who are they addressed to? Why were they written? What is their purpose?
They were written to CHRISTIANS. So if all our sins are already forgiven, why do they spend so much time talking about repentance, asking for forgiveness, and speaking about IF we do something, THEN God will forgive us? The letters spend considerable time warning Christians about how they could LOSE their salvation! (This simply CAN’T happen if our sins are already forgiven.)
Another avenue to think about (and please answer these questions about yourself, not some undefined Christian):
I think it informative to take a step back and look at the forest instead of the trees. Take a look at the New Testament, ESPECIALLY the letters. Who are they addressed to? Why were they written? What is their purpose?
They were written to CHRISTIANS. So if all our sins are already forgiven, why do they spend so much time talking about repentance, asking for forgiveness, and speaking about IF we do something, THEN God will forgive us? The letters spend considerable time warning Christians about how they could LOSE their salvation! (This simply CAN’T happen if our sins are already forgiven.)
Another avenue to think about (and please answer these questions about yourself, not some undefined Christian):
- Are YOU saved right now?
- Do YOU have free will?
- Are YOU able to refuse to do the good works that God has planned for you? Can YOU refuse to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, care for the orphan and widow, and visit those in prison?
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Lincoln7
Guest
Heliotropium,
If Hebrews 10:14 teaches that the messiahs sacrifice was a once for all perfecting sacrifice, there is no need for another propitiatory sacrifice, nor indeed for it to be “re-applied” to the account of the elect believer; if it needs reapplication then how was there ever a perfecting sacrfice in the first place? The point of the perfecting sacrifice of Christ is that it needs not applying again and again… It was applied once, for all time, to them who are being sanctified.
*7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” * (Rom 4:7-8). The Lord counts not sin against his redeemed covenant people; he does not count it against them, for it was paid for in full, once for all. If you commit a mortal sin, does God count that against you, does God impute it to you? If the answer is yes, it directly contradicts Paul’s quotation of David here, as well as the explicit perfecting work of Hebrews ch 10.
"The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ;k albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.l - Westminsiter Confession, Chapter 29. There is much symbolism in the supper.
I see this veering towards a Eucharistic discussion, which is not on topic, so I will leave it at that.
Kind regards
Lincs.
Reformed theology doesn’t teach that God no longer wants sacrifice from us, but does argue quite strongly (as does Romans, and Hebrews especially) that there is no longer any need for another sacrifice to take away sins; the need for another propitiatory sacrifice. "you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Pet 2:5 ESV). It is thus clear that the new redeemed covenant people offer to God a sacrifice, namely a spiritual one, their bodies themselves even as Paul explicitly says in Romans 12:1.
If Hebrews 10:14 teaches that the messiahs sacrifice was a once for all perfecting sacrifice, there is no need for another propitiatory sacrifice, nor indeed for it to be “re-applied” to the account of the elect believer; if it needs reapplication then how was there ever a perfecting sacrfice in the first place? The point of the perfecting sacrifice of Christ is that it needs not applying again and again… It was applied once, for all time, to them who are being sanctified.
*7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” * (Rom 4:7-8). The Lord counts not sin against his redeemed covenant people; he does not count it against them, for it was paid for in full, once for all. If you commit a mortal sin, does God count that against you, does God impute it to you? If the answer is yes, it directly contradicts Paul’s quotation of David here, as well as the explicit perfecting work of Hebrews ch 10.
Without derailing the thread into one regarding our various beliefs regarding the Eucharist, I’d direct people to the Westiniter confession for an example of my thought;
"The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ;k albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.l - Westminsiter Confession, Chapter 29. There is much symbolism in the supper.
Do this! Meaning do this in remembrance of my once for all sacrfice for you on the cross which will secure the remission of all your sins. Be spiritually nourished by partaking in this through faith. The remembrance aspect of the supper in these verses is quite plain. I have given a response to your questions on sacrifice above.
I see this veering towards a Eucharistic discussion, which is not on topic, so I will leave it at that.
Kind regards
Lincs.
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Lincs
Your theology of sin and forgiveness is simply wrong and this is fairly easily seen from scripture. The easiest example is from Matt 6:14-15
If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
Forgiving others is - like the prayer Christ is teaching- an ongoing, daily thing. If we don’t continue to forgive (70x7) then we will not be forgiven.
The once for all forgiveness spoken of in Hebrews is speaking of what Christ accomplished:
He accomplished the forgiveness of all the sins of all mankind for all time through his once for all sacrifice. The application of that forgiveness, however, is an ongoing thing conditioned upon our response to gods grace and by his grace.
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Pax
Guest
Lincoln7 in Christ,
A specific example is found in the book of Acts involving Simon the Magician that denies your claim concerning forgiveness of all sin in connection with justification. After Simon the Magician is stated to be a believer and is baptized in Acts 8:13, he then turns around and tries to buy the power associated with the laying on of hands. In Acts 8:20-22, Peter rebukes him saying:
"Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
Clearly, future sins are not forgiven when past sins are forgiven.
God bless.
A specific example is found in the book of Acts involving Simon the Magician that denies your claim concerning forgiveness of all sin in connection with justification. After Simon the Magician is stated to be a believer and is baptized in Acts 8:13, he then turns around and tries to buy the power associated with the laying on of hands. In Acts 8:20-22, Peter rebukes him saying:
"Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
Clearly, future sins are not forgiven when past sins are forgiven.
God bless.
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Lincoln7
Guest
I don’t think that the above refutes the clearly revealed truth that Christ’s perfecting, saving atonement has fully paid the penalty for all the sins of the believers life.
"7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” - Romans 4:7-8. It is clearly seen here, the member of the new renewed covenant will not have sin counted against him, for he has been perfected; in other words, his sins are fully taken from him, all of them. In your theology does God count sin, namely a mortal towards you? If it teaches as much it is in direct contradiction to the above from Romans.
Yes however, we do pray daily for forgiveness of sins; the true child of God hates their sins, and pleads for forgiveness daily. They are justified once, no longer are sins imputed to their account, but they still pray for forgiveness nonetheless, out of sorrow at having displeased and offended the Just God.
I am yet to see an alternate convincing argument against the quoted verses in Romans, and Hebrews 10:14, which specifically state the atonement was perfecting for a certain group of people, not simply allowing perfection as a possibility.
Kind regards
Lincs
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brb3
Guest
Lincs… .
If your referenced scripture ‘only’ indicate a one time for all time meaning for justification---- u and we could claim OSAS status. We could neglect the Church, the Beatitudes, the 10 commandments, etc.
Until ur ideas are consistent with the rest of scripture… you are being drawn into a Satan trap with this rationale.
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Lincoln7
Guest
Thats the thing; these scriptures do teach a full pardon of all sins in the elect believers life, they do indeed teach with great and unmistakable clarity and simplicity that God does not count sin against a true christian. They are fully forgiven. They have been effectually called and perfected because of the work of Christ for them on the cross, thats simply what Hebrews 10, and verse 14 specifically teaches.
I do not see how a reformed view of salvation somehow means we can do away with church, the beatitudes or the 10 commandments?? The Church is the new people of the redeemed Abrahamic covenant, the true family of God, into which those called by God enter into by faith. As for those things described in the beatitutes, and indeed all works of righteousness; they are in no way done away with, but rather are evidences of one having been saved. This is obvious in Paul - "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10) It is quite plain and apparent that grace alone saves, through faith, with good fruit following as the evidence of this salvation, in no way its cause, otherwise how would grace be grace? The exact point Paul makes in Romans 11:6…
Thus your objections against a perfecting work of Christ for the above reasons dont square up to scripture.
Kind regards
Lincs
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