Why wouldn't God forgive all our sins at once?

[Philthy]

brb3,

Yes, I do. I have already posted two clear and unambiguous scriptures; Romans 4:7-8 and Hebrews 10:14. “Perfected, for all time” - Not “just temporarily until sin is committed, then one must once again revert to a non perfecting, repeated sacrifice”. That’s exactly what the Author here is arguing against. All the sins of those who are sanctified are forgiven. It’s plain in the text.

 

[Pax]

Pax,

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Yes, the author talks to the collective covenant community. And does truthfully declare that if one continues in sin, unrepentant, to the point where one no longer has any inclination of repentance, is shut up out of it indeed (to the point they won’t even look for it), one will prove oneself not a true sheep, and thus there is no longer any sacrfice for sins; they know the truth of who Jesus is and what he’s done for them, that he’s the only true sacrfice, and yet the reject him, obstinately, indefinatly. Thus no sacrifice remains that can take away their sin as they’re rejected the only one that ever could. 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” - Thus they never really were of those who have true faith (Unless of course, they return to the truth as in James 5:19-20, in which case they’re not those described here.) that would be my take on these verses anyway. I just think The Lord made it plain he wouldn’t ever lose anyone who the father gave him, so a true elect child of God can’t fall away totally and finally till death, as in John 6:39.

So despite our differences here (which I won’t downplay, or for a moment pretend don’t matter), practically when this is observed, you think a true believer can fall finally away adm never come back, whereas I think a true believer can fall, badly, very badly indeed (James 5:19-20 says up to the point where they’re heading for spiritual death!), but that if they are true sheep they will come back from their fall.

The above view gives me great hope, that even my worst sins are covered and he won’t let me go.

Kind regards

Lincs

Lincs in Christ,

On this part we may have some partial agreement, but we clearly part company in terms of your contention that a “true believer” can never fall away and never come back. Scripture simply speaks of believers and unbelievers. Pretenders are not considered believers in scripture. Believers indeed can fall away and not return. Simon the Magician is a clear example. Furthermore Peter tells us this in his second letter:

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

That verse supports what I previously gave you from Hebrews. Likewise, the book of Hebrews gives us further proof by telling us the following:

Hebrews 6:4-8

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

That verse along with all of the other scriptures we have quoted on this thread clearly tells us that a “believer” can fall into apostasy and lose their salvation. Again, not everyone who is justified will remain faithful or persevere until the end.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Okay, so let’s take a look at 1 John 2:19 which you quoted and used as support for your position. Better still, let’s give the passage the full context by quoting 1John 2:15-25 which says:

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever. Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

That passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means "remain(s)" and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide**[remain]** in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

The entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life. Respectfully, I do not believe that it supports your contention or usage at all.

You also included James 5:19-20 claiming that those John referred to were “never really of those who have true faith (Unless of course, they return to the truth as in James 5:19-20, in which case they’re not those described here.)” That is highly problematic because you started by misunderstanding 1 John 2:19 and have apparently misunderstood James as well. Let’s look at the actual quote from scripture where it says:

James 5:19-20

My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Please note that James says “My brethren” at the beginning of the passage. James only uses that term in reference to believers. Moreover, he points out that a believer can wander from the truth. He also says that said person can be brought back from the error of his ways and thus be saved. James does not say that all believers will come back and thus be saved. Clearly, it is possible for the “believer” who wanders to return but it is not guaranteed. The return of the believer or the fact that the believer does not return does not determine whether or not the person was justified. All believers are justified, but not all remain faithful and not all return to the fold. That is why scripture is filled with warning after warning to believers. Philthy in his post above has listed some of scriptural warnings given to believers. Those should be enough, but if you need more we can and will gladly supply them.

I hope this helps and God bless.