Don’t hold your breath for a response.BrandenRush, it’s been over 24 hours since I first asked you to please explain the above statement. I’m still waiting. *WHAT UGLY TRUTH? *
Wait — you blame the Catholic Church for actions of a king who by his own words and actions no longer considered himself subject to the Catholic Church? How is that fair? What does it mean that Henry was “Catholic in his mentality if not in name?” That makes no sense. Henry acted not as an agent of the Catholic Church but as the supreme head of the Church of England. Saying he was “still Catholic in mentality if not in name” is just a convenient way of blaming a NON-Catholic’s actions on the Catholic Church. Henry ceased to be a Catholic the moment he accepted the headship of a different church.Dates don’t mean a lot in these situations. Tyndale began his efforts to translate the Bible long before that time, and he was opposed by the Catholic Church long before that time. His betrayal and martyrdom took place when he lived in hiding away from Britain on the European mainland; and it was carried out by the Roman authorities, not the British ones. The fact that Parliament made that declaration in 1534 does not mean that the whole country immediately became “Anglicans”. It takes time for attitudes, thought patterns, and allegiances to change, especially religious ones. Those who still continued to oppose him in England were still “Catholic” in their mentality, if not in name.
Henry didn’t burn Tyndale at the stake – although I am sure he agreed with it.Wait — you blame the Catholic Church for actions of a king who by his own words and actions no longer considered himself subject to the Catholic Church? How is that fair? What does it mean that Henry was “Catholic in his mentality if not in name?” That makes no sense. Henry acted not as an agent of the Catholic Church but as the supreme head of the Church of England. Saying he was “still Catholic in mentality if not in name” is just a convenient way of blaming a NON-Catholic’s actions on the Catholic Church. Henry ceased to be a Catholic the moment he accepted the headship of a different church.
The Catholic Church bears no responsibility for the actions of a man who declares himself independent of its authority. I can’t believe you’ve seriously thought this through. Henry was no longer a Catholic when Tyndale was executed – claims that he was “really still Catholic” are just excuses to blame Catholicism for something it didn’t do.
That is not the point…the point is that neither the Catholic Church nor anyone representative of the Catholic Church DID, which is an assertion that YOU made.Henry didn’t burn Tyndale at the stake – although I am sure he agreed with it.
zerinus
He ORDERED it.Henry didn’t burn Tyndale at the stake – although I am sure he agreed with it.
zerinus
Tyndale’s last words do not mean that Henry “ordered it”. Do you have independent historical evidence that Henry “ordered it”? Henry was a wicked man, and it was not beyond him to “order it”. He had murdered his own dear wives, so he shouldn’t have had any compunction about murdering Tyndale. But as I said berfore, Tyndale’s arrest and execution took place outside Henry’s jurisdiction.He ORDERED it.
Hence the popular report of Tyndale’s last words: “Lord, open the eyes of the King of England.”
How about the viciously anti-Catholic “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” which itself states that Tyndale was killed by Henry VIII’s order, NOT by the Catholic Church.Tyndale’s last words do not mean that Henry “ordered it”. Do you have independent historical evidence that Henry “ordered it”? Henry was a wicked man, and it was not beyond him to “order it”. He had murdered his own dear wives, so he shouldn’t have had any compunction about murdering Tyndale. But as I said berfore, Tyndale’s arrest and execution took place outside Henry’s jurisdiction.
zerinus
I find it ironic that in a time when the pressure is on to accept without adverse judgment the social mores of other cultures, however repugnant their practices may be to our selves, it remains acceptable to deny that same dispassionate reservation of judgment to our ancestors.It would be a mistake to view the Middle Ages, or any other time period centuries or more away, through our 20th or 21st century eyes, whether it would be the use of Latin, the power of monarchs, or even the way people viewed their world.
I read that article, but did not see the passage you are referring to. Maybe I read it too quickly. Can you quote it please.How about the viciously anti-Catholic “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” which itself states that Tyndale was killed by Henry VIII’s order, NOT by the Catholic Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale
I don’t think we’re allowed to cut and paste like that but if you look about 45% of the way down the page you’ll see a paragraph which begins: “From Foxe’s Book of Martyr’s : Master Tyndale, remaining in prison …”I read that article, but did not see the passage you are referring to. Maybe I read it too quickly. Can you quote it please.
zerinus
This is the passage you are referring to:I don’t think we’re allowed to cut and paste like that but if you look about 45% of the way down the page you’ll see a paragraph which begins: “From Foxe’s Book of Martyr’s : Master Tyndale, remaining in prison …”
zerinus;2457099 said:I am not a scholar or historian of Bible translations into English, and I don’t intend to become one in order to prove you right or wrong.
zerinus
Oh my gosh, you can’t be serious. You asked where Foxe’s Book of Martyrs was quoted. I showed you. Read the preceding two paragraphs before the words “Foxes’ Book of Martyrs …” and see why Tyndale was in jail. Tyndale was in jail on Henry’s order. Please take the time to read the article before asking again. This is not a subject of any dispute. It is basic historical fact. Henry VIII issued the death sentence pursuant to which Tyndale was executed.This is the passage you are referring to:
From Foxe’s Book of Martyr’s : Master Tyndale, remaining in prison, was proffered an advocate and a procurator; the which he refused, saying that he would make answer for himself. He had so preached to them who had him in charge, and such as was there conversant with him in the Castle that they reported of him, that if he were not a good Christian man, they knew not whom they might take to be one.
He was tried on a charge of heresy in 1536 and condemned to the stake, despite Thomas Cromwell’s intercession on his behalf. Tyndale was strangled and his body burnt at the stake on 6 October 1536. His final words reportedly were, “Oh Lord, open the King of England’s eyes.”
Where does it say in there that Henry ordered his killing?
zerinus
That is not what I had asked. In post #77 you had stated: “How about the viciously anti-Catholic “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” which itself states that Tyndale was killed by Henry VIII’s order;” and then you had referred to the Wikipedia article. I read the article, and did not find any quotes from Fox to that effect, and asked you to help me to find it. Now you are talking about something completely different. Frankly, I am getting sick to death of this futile debate. Half the time I don’t know what you are talking about, and I don’t think you do either. I think it is about time to bring this futile debate to a close.Oh my gosh, you can’t be serious. You asked where Foxe’s Book of Martyrs was quoted. I showed you.
What “debate?” This is historical fact, not “debate.” I showed you two articles which state that Tyndale died under Henry VIII’s order. I cannot control your choice to dream up an alternate reality history and ask me to disprove it, but you’ve shown zero authority for your claim that Tyndale was killed by the Catholic Church. Apparently you “don’t know what I’m talking about” because by your own admission you cannot be bothered to learn facts which contradict “what you’ve always known” (in other words, your anti-Catholic prejudice).That is not what I had asked. In post #77 you had stated: “How about the viciously anti-Catholic “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” which itself states that Tyndale was killed by Henry VIII’s order;” and then you had referred to the Wikipedia article. I read the article, and did not find any quotes from Fox to that effect, and asked you to help me to find it. Now you are talking about something completely different. Frankly, I am getting sick to death of this futile debate. Half the time I don’t know what you are talking about, and I don’t think you do either. I think it is about time to bring this futile debate to a close.
zerinus
Tyndale was opposed by the Catholic Church, persecuted by the Cathollioc Church, arrested and jailed in a Catholic country by the agents of the Catholic Church, and finally executed by the agents of the same Catholic Church. Henry VIII was a very wicked man who who also wanted him dead, and aided and abeted, maybe even instigated, that crime.What “debate?” This is historical fact, not “debate.” I showed you two articles which state that Tyndale died under Henry VIII’s order. I cannot control your choice to dream up an alternate reality history and ask me to disprove it, but you’ve shown zero authority for your claim that Tyndale was killed by the Catholic Church. Apparently you “don’t know what I’m talking about” because by your own admission you cannot be bothered to learn facts which contradict “what you’ve always known” (in other words, your anti-Catholic prejudice).
You want to accuse my church of something? You bear the burden of proof.
Tyndale was opposed TO the Catholic Church. Kind of gives a sense of perspective when you realize that BOTH Catholics AND Protestants thought this guy was trouble.Tyndale was opposed by the Catholic Church, persecuted by the Cathollioc Church, arrested and jailed in a Catholic country by the agents of the Catholic Church, and finally executed by the agents of the same Catholic Church. Henry VIII was a very wicked man who who also wanted him dead, and aided and abeted, maybe even instigated, that crime.
zerinus