Why you should think that the First-Cause has to be an Intelligent Cause

[rossum]

God doesn’t need anything.

You are contradicting yourself. Above, you said:

EVERYTHING needs a cause.

Now you are saying that not everything needs a cause. Since your argument is self-contradictory it very obviously fails.

The rest of your post merely indicates that you would do well to avoid science-based discussions. You do not know enough on the subject.

rossum

 

[STT]

I can. For the material universe, try the multiverse as one of the options cosmologists are looking at. The multiverse is outside time, obviously since time is part of the space-time manifold which derived from the multiverse at the Big Bang. Since it is outside time, it is atemporal and needs no cause.

Could you please provide a reference? I google several combination of keyword by I didn’t find anything useful.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

God doesn’t need anything.

You are contradicting yourself. Above, you said:

EVERYTHING needs a cause.

Now you are saying that not everything needs a cause. Since your argument is self-contradictory it very obviously fails.

The rest of your post merely indicates that you would do well to avoid science-based discussions. You do not know enough on the subject.

rossum

God is the uncaused cause.

And don’t lecture me on science fiction

 

[rossum]

God is the uncaused cause.

And so is the multiverse.

And don’t lecture me on science fiction

I would suggest The Nine Billion Names of God.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Could you please provide a reference? I google several combination of keyword by I didn’t find anything useful.

Here is the Wikipedia article. There are many references at the end of the article.

rossum

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

God is the uncaused cause.

And so is the multiverse.

Where’s the proof?

NOTHING ≠ SOMETHING
NOTHING from NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING + NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING x NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING ≠ SOURCE
NOTHING ≠ EFFECT

NOTHING = NON EXISTENCE = NOTHING

And don’t lecture me on science fiction

rossum:

I would suggest The Nine Billion Names of God.

NO ONE in ALL History, said that He would live, die a horrible death, get buried, and on the 3rd day, rise from the dead. Jesus did it.

Point being,

1. If Jesus didn’t do that then as Paul said our faith is worthless and we’re to be pitied of all people.
2. Then you and I could speculate endlessly about all kinds of stuff in this area, and who cares. It wouldn’t matter.

But that’s not the case.

 

[AlNg]

The question is, who started everything that is.

How do you know it started at some point in the past?

 

[AlNg]

Where’s the proof?

NOTHING ≠ SOMETHING
NOTHING from NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING + NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING x NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING ≠ SOURCE
NOTHING ≠ EFFECT

NOTHING = NON EXISTENCE = NOTHING

However, Nothing/Nothing can be any number you choose.

 

[rossum]

NOTHING ≠ SOMETHING
NOTHING from NOTHING = NOTHING

This from Stephen Hawking:

There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.

– A Brief History of Time

Our material universe has zero energy, so in that sense it is nothing. Cosmology gets very strange sometimes. Assumptions that work at normal scales do not always apply at very large, or at very small scales.

rossum

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

Forgetting about all the philosophy and long worded arguments:

A dumb deity could NOT have created the complexities of the human anatomy, laws of physics, laws of arithmetic, laws of maths, laws of nature, atoms, cell structures, etc

Our God is OMNISCIENT, ETERNAL, ALL KNOWLEDGEABLE,

 

[tafan2]

With regards to the OP question, Aquinas answered this in great detail:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1014.htm#article1

I do not know why, but it seems we all too often stop studying Aquinas’s thoughts about God as soon as we get past the 5 ways of showing His existence. Immediately after that Aquinas answers many of the commin questions about God if we are just willing to read a few more pages of the Summa.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The question is, who started everything that is.

How do you know it started at some point in the past?

Even science recognizes a beginning… the big bang theory

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Where’s the proof?

NOTHING ≠ SOMETHING
NOTHING from NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING + NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING x NOTHING = NOTHING
NOTHING ≠ SOURCE
NOTHING ≠ EFFECT

NOTHING = NON EXISTENCE = NOTHING

However, Nothing/Nothing can be any number you choose.

Actually no. A number of any quantity is something. We’re talking about NOTHING being there.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

NOTHING ≠ SOMETHING
NOTHING from NOTHING = NOTHING

This from Stephen Hawking:

There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.

– A Brief History of Time

Our material universe has zero energy, so in that sense it is nothing. Cosmology gets very strange sometimes. Assumptions that work at normal scales do not always apply at very large, or at very small scales.

rossum

With all due respect to Hawking,

All those items underlined are created items. He acts like they were always here.

His theory and explanation is not based on science but his faith in science fiction. Science has no answer for this. Strange argument coming from one who was an atheist. I say was, because as you know Hawking died. And as an atheist he knows the truth NOW.

 

[rossum]

All those items underlined are created items. He acts like they were always here.

Created? Even I can create zero energy, it isn’t very difficult.

Besides, on your hypothesis intelligence is not created, since you ascribe it to your First Cause. Your hypothesis relies on the existence of something uncreated, so it is a bit rich for you to complain that my hypothesis is wrong because it contains something uncreated.

rossum

 

[laylow]

And as an atheist he knows the truth NOW.

Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

 

[AlNg]

Actually no. A number of any quantity is something.

The number zero may stand for the quantity of nothing but it is not nothing since it is a number. This is true.

Our material universe has zero energy, so in that sense it is nothing.
rossum

Negative gravitational energy together with positive energy of matter is not nothing although the total combined energy does add up to zero.
For another example take the case of a person who has no debts and has no money in the bank. This would be different from the case of a person who has a debt of $1000 and has a bank account of $1000. The total amount of money owed is the same ($0) in both cases, but the cases are qualitatively different although quantitatively they may be the same.

 

[AlNg]

a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

Some will say that there are animals in heaven, But if there are animals in heaven, the dead lion would be better off, since he would be in heaven and would have no need to search for food.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

All those items underlined are created items. He acts like they were always here.

Created? Even I can create zero energy, it isn’t very difficult.

Not if you’ don’t exist

rossum:

Besides, on your hypothesis intelligence is not created, since you ascribe it to your First Cause. Your hypothesis relies on the existence of something uncreated, so it is a bit rich for you to complain that my hypothesis is wrong because it contains something uncreated.

rossum

we wouldn’t know about the uncaused cause unless the uncaused cause showed us who He is.

The one Hawking didn’t believe in. He knows better now

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

And as an atheist he knows the truth NOW.

Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,

True

laylow:

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

said by those who have no faith. Keep reading in Ecclesiastes.

AND here is from even a non Catholic perspective, another explanation