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edwest
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Promoting evolution.
Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true
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IWantGod
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Whats wrong with Evolution?
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IWantGod
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I see bias on both sides of the argument. And both sides of the argument are grounded in a straw-man of both religion and science.
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buffalo
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More detail please.
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Aloysium
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Evolutionary theory is pseudoscience, an arrangement of scientific knowledge into a distortion of reality. It is founded on philosophical and metaphysical assumptions, essentially belief systems that misunderstand the truth. Consequently, it does not describe, let alone explain how things came to be.
The Church through its theology and traditions expresses the Truth that has been shown to us with the grace of the Holy Spirit. The Church acknowledging the role of empirical research in revealing aspects of the natural world, has been open to the findings of modern science. The Truth is one and any weaving of the scientific data must conform to what God has revealed to us. From the perspective of modern science, He brought light into existence and from there the subatomic, the atomic, and molecular, from there proceeding to create the garden that was Eden, we ourselves created from one first man, who sinned and as a consequence of original sin transformed that primordial paradise into this fallen world.
While we may share in a similar anatomy and physiology, there are no simian creatures within our ancestry. Beneath superficial appearances, we are different kinds of being. Evolution is simply a bad guess by people who think that the universe has always been what it is today, this in spite of the fact that the idea “15 billion years ago” is an absurdity, and that since the first light, every event has progressively come into existence, as a more complex form until we get to where we are today. We do not need to buy into the fanciful story that is evolution.
The Church through its theology and traditions expresses the Truth that has been shown to us with the grace of the Holy Spirit. The Church acknowledging the role of empirical research in revealing aspects of the natural world, has been open to the findings of modern science. The Truth is one and any weaving of the scientific data must conform to what God has revealed to us. From the perspective of modern science, He brought light into existence and from there the subatomic, the atomic, and molecular, from there proceeding to create the garden that was Eden, we ourselves created from one first man, who sinned and as a consequence of original sin transformed that primordial paradise into this fallen world.
While we may share in a similar anatomy and physiology, there are no simian creatures within our ancestry. Beneath superficial appearances, we are different kinds of being. Evolution is simply a bad guess by people who think that the universe has always been what it is today, this in spite of the fact that the idea “15 billion years ago” is an absurdity, and that since the first light, every event has progressively come into existence, as a more complex form until we get to where we are today. We do not need to buy into the fanciful story that is evolution.
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Aloysium
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Gravity as a relationship that includes time-space, existing between material forms of being, themselves whole systems, greater than their more basic constituents that are in relation to one another and that which is beyond their individual existence, is a key aspect of God’s creation, the stuff of the universe. Mathematics is a psychological reality that expresses the rational capacities of human beings, who were created in the image of God. Language is another psychological reality, which in the unity of the person reflects the built-in and acquired structure of the brain, allowing us to communicate not only internally to ourselves, our thoughts and experiences, but as best we can to others. (Unfortunately, I seem to have little luck here in that regard.) All human knowledge reflects our capacity to know, which stems from God’s knowing us. Through one’s relationship with God, we are able to see Him everywhere.Aloysium:
So is gravity. So is Mathematics. So is the study of French irregular verbs. A vast amount of human knowledge does not have God as a central figure.
rossum
Having a relativistic view, one will see nothing else. What many people want is conformity to their views. I’m not the one who started a thread entitled “Why you should think (whatever) is true.” Believe what you will; I’m just sharing my informed opinion on the matter.
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Aloysium
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It would be more of a “postjudice”, having given the matter a great deal of thought, deconstructing the concept into its components and seeing the actual knowledge through a different light. If you click on my icon, you’ll note the number of arguments I’ve made against the story of evolution and why that of creation is far more valid.
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IWantGod
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Why is it a distortion of reality?
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IWantGod
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And what has that got to do with the theory of evolution. Like i said any argument that the natural development of species necessarily conflicts with with what the church teaches is essentially a lie.
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buffalo
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You have failed to demonstrate that over and over with magisterial documents. Eve coming from Adam has to be reconciled and you cannot do that without doing extreme violence to Scripture and Tradition. (I do not mean micro-evolution aka adaptation, but macro-evolution)
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buffalo
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In the common descent (not universal common descent) patterns we see devolution.
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rossum
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Absolutely correct! Usain Bolt’s parents could run faster than their son, and his grandparents could run even faster.
Einstein’s parents were both better scientists and mathematicians than their son, obviously.
Robert de Niro’s parent (and grandparents) were all better actors than he is.
When we look at the world, devolution is very obvious. Not.
rossum
Einstein’s parents were both better scientists and mathematicians than their son, obviously.
Robert de Niro’s parent (and grandparents) were all better actors than he is.
When we look at the world, devolution is very obvious. Not.
rossum
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IWantGod
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Show me one magisterial document that states that…
- Adams biological body cannot be the result of natural evolution.
- The idea that distinct species are the result of evolutionary principles is agaisnt church teaching.
The church has made it’s position clear…
"3896. Wherefore, the magisterium of the Church does not forbid that the teaching of “evolution” be treated in accord with the present status of human disciplines and of theology, by investigations and disputations by learned men in both fields; insofar, of course, as the inquiry is concerned with the origin of the human body arising from already existing and living matter; as to the souls, the Catholic faith demands us to hold that they are immediately created by God."
http://inters.org/evolution-and-monogenism
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buffalo
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Have you ever read Humani Generis in its entirety?
- If anyone examines the state of affairs outside the Christian fold, he will easily discover the principle trends that not a few learned men are following. Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things, and audaciously support the monistic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution. Communists gladly subscribe to this opinion so that, when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, they may the more efficaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism.
- Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences.
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buffalo
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Let’s examine the Word of God itself. (notice how each species was separately created"
21 God created great sea-monsters and all the creatures that glide and teem in the waters in their own species, and winged birds in their own species. God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ‘Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters of the seas; and let the birds multiply on land.’
23 Evening came and morning came: the fifth day.
24 God said, ‘Let the earth produce every kind of living creature in its own species: cattle, creeping things and wild animals of all kinds.’ And so it was.
25 God made wild animals in their own species, and cattle in theirs, and every creature that crawls along the earth in its own species. God saw that it was good.
26 God said, ‘Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.’
27 God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying to them, ‘Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that move on earth.’
29 God also said, 'Look, to you I give all the seed-bearing plants everywhere on the surface of the earth, and all the trees with seed-bearing fruit; this will be your food.
30 And to all the wild animals, all the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that creep along the ground, I give all the foliage of the plants as their food.’ And so it was.
31 God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good. Evening came and morning came: the sixth day.
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buffalo
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then: (notice God makes him a helper, and God brought the animals (already created to him to name)
15 Yahweh God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate and take care of it.
16 Then Yahweh God gave the man this command, 'You are free to eat of all the trees in the garden.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat; for, the day you eat of that, you are doomed to die.’
18 Yahweh God said, ‘It is not right that the man should be alone. I shall make him a helper.’
19 So from the soil Yahweh God fashioned all the wild animals and all the birds of heaven. These he brought to the man to see what he would call them; each one was to bear the name the man would give it.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of heaven and all the wild animals. But no helper suitable for the man was found for him.
21 Then, Yahweh God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And, while he was asleep, he took one of his ribs and closed the flesh up again forthwith.
22 Yahweh God fashioned the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.
23 And the man said: This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh! She is to be called Woman, because she was taken from Man.
24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and they become one flesh.
15 Yahweh God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate and take care of it.
16 Then Yahweh God gave the man this command, 'You are free to eat of all the trees in the garden.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat; for, the day you eat of that, you are doomed to die.’
18 Yahweh God said, ‘It is not right that the man should be alone. I shall make him a helper.’
19 So from the soil Yahweh God fashioned all the wild animals and all the birds of heaven. These he brought to the man to see what he would call them; each one was to bear the name the man would give it.
20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of heaven and all the wild animals. But no helper suitable for the man was found for him.
21 Then, Yahweh God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And, while he was asleep, he took one of his ribs and closed the flesh up again forthwith.
22 Yahweh God fashioned the rib he had taken from the man into a woman, and brought her to the man.
23 And the man said: This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh! She is to be called Woman, because she was taken from Man.
24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and they become one flesh.
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Aloysium
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To be clear, this is your interpretation of what has been said by important figures within the Church, who are not scientists first of all and secondly never have refuted aspects of the dogma, which go beyond what you are claiming here.
The real issue for me, seeing I cannot speak for others, is to grow in understanding as to how God did bring forth creation from nothing, and thereby witness His glory. It is an important aspect of my relationship with Him, seeing that my mind, created by Him, is naturally drawn toward nature and the sciences. The other aspect has to do with not keeping what I understand to myself. As others here have helped me, I must pass on what I have learned.
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buffalo
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Now let’s move to Tradition and how we have always understood this to mean:
Pope Pelagius I in 557 - I confess … that all men from Adam onward who have been born and have died up to the end of the world will then rise again and stand “before the judgment-seat of Christ,” together with Adam himself and his wife, who were not born of other parents, but were created: one from the earth and the other from the side of the man (… ). **[15]
Pope Pelagius I in 557 - I confess … that all men from Adam onward who have been born and have died up to the end of the world will then rise again and stand “before the judgment-seat of Christ,” together with Adam himself and his wife, who were not born of other parents, but were created: one from the earth and the other from the side of the man (… ). **[15]
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buffalo
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Ecumenical Council of Vienne in 1312
[We confess] … that after [Jesus’] spirit was already rendered up, his side suffered perforation by a lance, so that through the ensuing flow of water and blood, the one and only, immaculate, virgin holy Mother Church, the Spouse of Christ, might be formed, just as from the side of the first man, cast into sleep, Eve was formed for him unto marriage. This happened so that the reality manifested in our last Adam, that is, Christ, might correspond to a certain prefiguring of that reality constituted by the first and ancient Adam, who, according to the Apostle, “is a type of the one who was to come”
[We confess] … that after [Jesus’] spirit was already rendered up, his side suffered perforation by a lance, so that through the ensuing flow of water and blood, the one and only, immaculate, virgin holy Mother Church, the Spouse of Christ, might be formed, just as from the side of the first man, cast into sleep, Eve was formed for him unto marriage. This happened so that the reality manifested in our last Adam, that is, Christ, might correspond to a certain prefiguring of that reality constituted by the first and ancient Adam, who, according to the Apostle, “is a type of the one who was to come”
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buffalo
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Vatican I
This, our Holy Mother the Church believes and teaches: When God was about to make man according to his image and likeness in order that he might rule over the whole earth, He breathed into the body formed from the slime of the earth the breath of life, that is, a soul produced from nothing… . And blessing the first man and Eve his wife who was formed by divine power from his side, God said: “Increase and multiply, and fill the earth”
This, our Holy Mother the Church believes and teaches: When God was about to make man according to his image and likeness in order that he might rule over the whole earth, He breathed into the body formed from the slime of the earth the breath of life, that is, a soul produced from nothing… . And blessing the first man and Eve his wife who was formed by divine power from his side, God said: “Increase and multiply, and fill the earth”
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