Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true

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Aloysium:
That they are examples of random chemical changes, something not seen in mitochondrial DNA
False. Your creationist sources are lying to you. Mitochondrial DNA can evolve/change as does other DNA.

rossum
Making things up serves only one purpose, that of self-deception.

Here’s a link that was posted above:

Let’s look at some of the investigators conclusions:
ninety percent of all animal species alive today come from parents that all began giving birth at roughly the same time, less than 250 thousand years ago

We’re also surprisingly similar to not just every other human, but every other species.

At least for mitochondrial DNA, humans turn out to be low to average in genetic diversity.
Here’s another older paper, steeped in the language of evolution, the first one that popped up on a Google search:


Highlighting a couple of points in the abstract to demonstrate the differences between mitochondrial and nuclear DNA, which would point to the nonrandom nature of “mutations” in the genome, occuring as the result of built-in structures and processes that I believe originated in the creation of each kind of being:
Average nucleotide diversity among the sequences is 1.7%, several-fold higher than estimates from restriction endonuclease site variation in mtDNA from these individuals and previously reported for other humans.
The results also revealed a significantly nonrandom distribution of nucleotide substitutions and sequence length variation. Significantly more multiple substitutions were observed than expected for these closely related sequences under the assumption of uniform rates of substitution. The bias for transitions has resulted in predominantly convergent or parallel changes among the observed multiple substitutions. There is no convincing evidence that recombination has contributed to the mtDNA sequence diversity we have observed.
Obviously not creationist sources, the authors are not lying but believe in the story they promote to justify their work in this day and age. Again, while the science is weaved into an evolutionary context, to me it is clear that creationism is far superior an explanation.
 
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Here’s a link that was posted above:
Your link does not say what you think (or were told) it does. It says nothing about mtDNA being fixed and unchanging.

According to you, all human mtDNA should be identical since we are all descended from Eve, and mtDNA is only inherited from the mother.

It is not identical. It has changed over time. Not by much, but it has definitely changed. Your claim of unchanging mtDNA is an error, and is shown to be an error by the evidence. See Human mitochondrial DNA haplogroups.

You (or your sources) are wrong on this one I’m afraid.

rossum
 
What it shows it that the diversity we find in the genome is due to built it factors that are part of the DNA and its environment. These cellular processes are different in mitochondria from those found in the nucleus. This is why there is greater variation in the genotype and phenotype, and more similarity in mitochondrial DNA.

One would not expect the similarity you presume should exist. This would be because there is some built in capacity for change in mitochondria as well. Additionally, there are the effects of random chemical reactions as a result of toxins, radiation and the noise present in any system. These unfortunately result in a corruption of the information contained in DNA.
Your link does not say what you think (or were told) it does.
I was asking the reader to consider the science contained in the articles, some salient points were highlighted to point to those facts. I do not expect everyone to see things my way.

As to being told, pretty much all that we know is through authority, science shared as a body of knowledge. If one is interested however, it is possible to deconstruct the myths, the popularization of the facts into stories like that of evolution. Doing so, we can come to deeper understandings by reuniting those facts, seeing them through the light of creation, thereby allowing us to personally get closer to the truth.
 
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the correct position
AKA, not the truth, not what best reflects reality, but rather what is needed to pass the test. Yes, we’ve been through this all, some better than others. While we must respect authority, we have been given the capacity to reason and are responsible to the truth.
 
If you choose to dismiss Genesis as the literal truth you choose to call Jesus a liar. There is only one truth according to Jesus and that is the Word.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

It’s extremely clear that the Word is the truth.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Jesus says himself that the Word came from God and it is the Truth and the Truth cannot be broken. The devil in all his cunning has the world believing a lie of evolution.

Jesus taught about creation itself and early events in the word, see (Matthew 19:4–5), ([Matthew 23:35), [Matthew 24:37–39), [John 8:39–41, 56–58) Luke 17:28–32, Matthew 12:39–41

Jesus didn’t see Jonah, Noah, Abraham, Adam, Abel, Cain, Lot, Sodom and Gomorrah as some fictional story just to tell as bedtime stories. He believed those to be the truth because he understood the word.

Man finds bones in the ground he can’t explain and doesn’t look to God for the answer. Instead he turns to his own understanding. It just so happens the word teaches against this. What does the word say?

Proverbs 3:1My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

My God spoke the entire universe into existence in 6 literal days and it was perfect.

For You, O LORD, have made me glad by what You have done, I will sing for joy at the works of Your hands.
 
If you choose to dismiss Genesis as the literal truth you choose to call Jesus a liar.
If you choose to treat Genesis as the literal truth then you are calling the God who made the world a liar. Literal Genesis has the solid dome “like brass” of the firmament over the earth. The God who made the universe did not place such a solid dome over the flat disc of the earth. Are you calling the creator of the universe a liar?

There is more than one interpretation of Genesis, as there is of much of the Bible. Do you interpret Deuteronomy 21:18-21 literally? How many disobedient sons have you stoned to death?

rossum
 
Reading through this thread this passage from St. Augustine’s “The Literal Meaning of Genesis” comes to mind:

" Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth , the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics ; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions , and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven , when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion"

Please, people, learn something about this subject or do not comment. It is embarrassing.
 
Thomas Aquinas also noticed the same passage from Augustine:
“In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches. The first is, to hold to the truth of Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing.”

Summa
As an unbeliever myself, “ridicule” is certainly deserved by some of the Bible interpretations expressed here.

rossum
 
The firmament was water that broke up during the flood.
No. The physical effects of that much water in the atmosphere would have killed all life on earth. And when it condensed from vapor back to water the amount of latent heat released would have boiled everything on earth to death. Even Answers in Genesis have given up on the canopy model: The Collapse of the Canopy Model.

rossum
 
And God couldn’t have parted the sea literally for the Israelites to escape Egypt. And Jesus didn’t really walk on water. Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego didn’t get thrown into real fire. Jesus didn’t really turn water to wine. God didn’t really flood the entire world. Lot’s wife didn’t really turn into a pillar of salt. Sarah wasn’t really 100 years old when she had Isaac. People didn’t really live to be nearly 1000 years old. God didn’t really send the angel of death to slay all the 1st born Egyptions. There really was no bush on fire that didn’t burn up. Samson didn’t really have supernatural strength. Uzzah didn’t really die from touching the Ark. Elijah wasn’t really taken to heaven. Mary wasn’t really a virgin. Jesus didn’t really raise from the dead.

You error because you limit God to your reasoning. All things are possible with God. How many things again class… eh hem… rossum?? All things… that’s right. 🙂
 
And God couldn’t have parted the sea literally for the Israelites to escape Egypt.
Such an event would leave no scientific evidence to see today.
And Jesus didn’t really walk on water.
Anybody can walk on water, see here.
God didn’t really flood the entire world.
No he did not. The scientific evidence shows that there was no universal genetic bottleneck in land tetrapods within the last 500,000 years. He may have flooded a part of the world, but not the whole world. I suggest that you re-read Genesis 12:1 but translate the Hebrew eretz as ‘planet’ rather than ‘land’ or ‘country’.
The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your planet, your people and your father’s household to the planet I will show you.
Translating eretz as the whole planet has some problems.
All things are possible with God.
Indeed so. If all things are possible then it is possible that your interpretation of Genesis is incorrect.

rossum
 
I feel sorry for you that you do not believe.

2 Timothy
1.I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 
St Augustine was a non-scientist who lived a long time ago with much different evidence available to him. What he says about Christian’s making fools of themselves on scientific topics is undeniably true.
 
St Augustine was a non-scientist who lived a long time ago with much different evidence available to him. What he says about Christian’s making fools of themselves on scientific topics is undeniably true.
Yes, provided the science is properly reasoned, includes the formal, material, efficient and formal causes, and is empirical. Science by its own definition is provisional and subject to change. How can we believe with certainty today, what will be overturned tomorrow?
 
I feel sorry for you that you do not believe.
I am Buddhist, so I do believe. Though what I believe is not the same as what you believe.
Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

– Dhammapada 1:1-2
rossum
 
We shouldn’t believe anything with absolute certainty. To do so is to declare ourselves infallible, because it is a refusal to admit the possibility that we are wrong.
 
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