Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true

[Techno2000]

Techno2000:

The fish, loaves and wine was all popped into existence .

Interesting. I disagree.

Jesus used water to make the wine and multiplied donated bread and fish.

So, without the water and the donated bread and fish…he couldn’t do it ?

 

[Elf01]

So, without the water and the donated bread and fish…he couldn’t do it ?

He could have but he didn’t.

 

[rossum]

This is what Behe claims

Anyone can make claims. My local Rabbi claims that Jesus is not G-d.

What mechanism does Behe propose that prevents new clades emerging at the level of Family or higher? Where is his observational or experimental evidence to support this claim.

Mammals are a Class, well above Family. No mammals are observed in the Cambrian, so the Class Mammalia appeared post-Cambrian. What mechanism does Behe propose for the emergence of Mammals? What is his evidence to support his proposed mechanism?

Claims need to be supported by evidence if they are to be accepted by science.

 

[Wozza]

This is what Behe claims - The conclusions of all studies is that evolutionary processes are only capable of driving changes at the level of species and genera, but not at the level of families or higher. Stated differently, evolution produces a limited number of changes and then no further significant change is possible.

Darwin Devolves Book Review - Thus this book. In it Behe makes the case that random mutation and natural selection are actually quite “ de volutionary”:

Darwinian evolution proceeds mainly by damaging or breaking genes, which, counterintuitively, sometimes helps survival. In other words, the mechanism is powerfully de volutionary. It promotes the rapid loss of genetic information. Laboratory experiments, field research, and theoretical studies all forcefully indicate that, as a result, random mutation and natural selection make evolution self-limiting. That is, the very same factors that promote diversity at the simplest levels of biology actively prevent it at more complex ones. Darwin’s mechanism works chiefly by squandering genetic information for short-term gain .

So…macro evolution is not that which applies just to species. We have changed our minds have we? You admit your earlier statement was wrong?

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000:

So, without the water and the donated bread and fish…he couldn’t do it ?

He could have but he didn’t.

God could create the Universe with a word…and end the Universe with a word.

 

[buffalo]

We have changed our minds have we? You admit your earlier statement was wrong?

No, you need to. I am clarifying what Behe claims. Review what you said about Behe. Do you agree with Behe?

 

[edwest211]

Which makes it no less a miracle in each case.

 

[Aloysium]

Jesus used water to make the wine and multiplied donated bread and fish.

I thought I’d look up the sorts of molecules we find in wine, and came up with this summary: tartic acid, citric acid, lactic acid, ascorbic acid, sorbic acid, citric acid, acetic acid, succinic acid, benzoic acid, caffeic acid, cinnamic acid, hydroxycinnammic acid, gluconic acid, flavonols, catechins, anthocyanins, tannins, stilbenoids, thaumatin-like proteins and chitinases, glucose and fructose, minerals, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, sulfur dioxide, ethyl acetate, norisoprenoids, methoxypyrazines, linalool and α-terpineol, even melatonin. So would He break down the atomic structure of the water molecules to form carbon, nitrogen, sulfur, argon, potassium, sodium, chloride, calcium, and any other necessary elements, to mould them into a collection of molecules? How about it was done using evolutionary principles, watering the plants, and after harvest time, pressing the grapes and fermenting the wine. In other words, maybe there was a stash out in the barn. Give me a break.

 

[Techno2000]

Give me a break.

Exactly

 

[Hobgoblin]

there are fundamental differences in our realities.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you suggesting Adam could be created via evolution in my reality and ex nihilo in yours?

Clearly your faith in evolution is great.

Well, there’s too much evidence for me to deny it in the absence of good alternatives. Especially, when the Church has no objection.

Direct common ancestry appears as an illusion to me.

I’d like to understand the reasons for your doubt.

The universe came from less than the sky, it was brought into existence from nothing, and the creation of different kinds of things stopped after the “sixth day”.

Day 6 is the completion of the universe up to Adam. Nothing is said of the mechanisms by which it was created. Nor does it say they aren’t still in operation.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Because it didn’t happen that way. Science now sees it.

So you know how it happened? Please tell me how Adam came to be and how you know it.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

We have changed our minds have we? You admit your earlier statement was wrong?

Do you agree with Behe?

Yeah. But you don’t. You think macroeveolution doesn’t exist. Behe says it does. Up to the species level and beyond.

You are putting forth arguments that even experts in ID reject. You are a one man show, Buffalo.

 

[buffalo]

Up to the species level and beyond.

How far beyond do you think it goes?

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Up to the species level and beyond.

How far beyond do you think it goes?

You have already been given that answer. There is no upper limit. But you think it’s species. You have said nothing less. Yet even the so called experts of the ID movement, people you have quoted yourself as being experts state quite categorically that you are wrong.

It’s a house built on sand. Even those who’s views you promote don’t support the views you hold. How are you going to be able to repeat any of your arguments when we know that ID doesn’t support them?

 

[buffalo]

There is no upper limit.

Just to be clear, you believe an organism can evolve its way up from the species level to the kingdom level?

 

[Bradskii]

Wozza:

Up to the species level and beyond.

How far beyond do you think it goes?

Me, me, I know! It’s ‘domain’. Behe thinks it’s family or order from memory.

Bufallo, you just be sure to let us know when you have changed your mind about what defines macroevolution. I’m guessing that you will, despite dozens and dozens of posts telling us that macroevolution doesn’t produce them. And now we have Behe, in writing, in his own book, saying that the evolutionary process can indeed include what you have decribed as macroevolution.

And not just to the species level. But up and away to genus and beyond!

Glorious.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

There is no upper limit.

Just to be clear, you believe an organism can evolve its way up from the species level to the kingdom level?

I think you have stated that it doesn’t get to species. How does that tie in with Behe who says macroevolution is not a problem. Up to…what level was it? Genus?

Not sure how you can keep repeating the same things when ID experts disagree with you.

 

[Aloysium]

Aloysium:

there are fundamental differences in our realities.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you suggesting Adam could be created via evolution in my reality and ex nihilo in yours?

Reality would be the relationship we have with everything, individually, and collectively share.

Since there are deeper truths, misunderstandings, and also lies, the situation is a bit more complicated than equally valid subjective realities.

Well, there’s too much evidence for me to deny it in the absence of good alternatives.

I am reminded that when we operate with blinders on and rely on unverified assumptions, as human nature is prone to, internally logical systems only appear to be the best alternative. Since this could be said about ourselves, it is important, if we are to remain responsible to the truth, to keep and open mind and heart.

I’d like to understand the reasons for your doubt.

I thought this had been addressed. Basically, human begets human.

Nothing is said of the mechanisms by which it was created. Nor does it say they aren’t still in operation.

Let’s say that the mechanisms transcend the laws that we invent to describe the relationships formed by the most basic of substances, which include that of the conservation of mass-energy. Micro-evolutionary processes, built into the various forms of life, at every layer of complexity, allow for what evolutionary thought preoccupies itself - survival. What this is all about is the ongoing artistic expression of creatures in equilibrium, contributing to and dependent on their environments. Someone earlier mentioned 5,000,000 species of fungi - amazing.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Since there are deeper truths, misunderstandings, and also lies, the situation is a bit more complicated than equally valid subjective realities.

There’s only one truth. Either it is, or it isn’t.

it is important, if we are to remain responsible to the truth, to keep and open mind and heart.

I would point that back at you….and Buffalo, Ed and Techno.

I thought this had been addressed. Basically, human begets human.

Adam’s mother was human as best we can tell. But I think you’re suggesting every creature was created ex-nihilo in its present, unchanging form. This is unsupported by the evidence. So why do you doubt?

 

[edwest211]

It’s the return of Bradskii…