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Steve_Green

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Greetings from Wichita, Kansas

If I owned a business and 30-40 years latter it was a disaster . I might want to know the reasons why. Let’s look at the institutional Roman Catholic Church for a moment to see why it is, especially in the west, in collapse. Forget about how Benedict will save us. And don’t comment, " Hey Steve, you can’t look at the church like a business." Knock it off, wake up and smell the spoiled bitter fruit of Vatican II. (Noticed how I did not say invalid, or false, or the new mass is invalid, or there is no pope)

Vatican II, for 98 percent of the world Catholics is a very big book with lots and lots of ink in it that nobody reads. The reasons for liberal theology, no priests, closed churches, closed Catholic high schools, closed seminaries, liturgical abuses so numerous I can not even type them all, politicians who vote for abortion then recieve the blessed sacrament, 20 percent mass attendance (if that), stolen eucharists for sale and Lord knows what else, dignity, We Are Church, made up liturgies, false ecumenism, I know I am missing something ,
message boards and the frustrations of those reading:

Well it is because of global warming ladies and gentlemen.

There is no way possible it could be blamed on the Novus Ordo Mass.

Sarcastically Yours in St. Basil

Steve
 
I agree at least with this statement:
Vatican II, for 98 percent of the world Catholics is a very big book with lots and lots of ink in it that nobody reads.
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But Vatican II was a lot bigger than the *Missale Romanum *(as the Novus Ordo is properly called). The problems you have listed in the Church, which I agree are all significant, came about in spite of what Vatican II said, not because of it. You say nobody reads the documents of the council–have you ever read them? Have you read *Gaudium Et Spes *and Lumen Gentium, the documents which, so far from giving rise to liberation theology and other nonsense, specifically warn against them?

The problem of the Church in the modern world is that pernicious “spirit” of Vatican II which is not based in reality but is rather an invention of those who didn’t get what they wanted out of the Council. The problem of the New Mass is not what was written but rather what dissenters have done to it. And problems are also a result of the fact that for far too long we have let them get away with it (not just priests and bishops and popes, but the faithful laity).

It is time to reclaim the beauty of the faith that was once ours. But we cannot go back to the way things were, we can only go forward. The question cannot be “How do I shoehorn the faith back into the box it was in before Vatican II?”, it must be, “How can we use what we have learned in the 30 years since the Council to authentically enrich the Catholic Faith?”
 
The problem of the Church in the modern world is that pernicious “spirit” of Vatican II which is not based in reality but is rather an invention of those who didn’t get what they wanted out of the Council. The problem of the New Mass is not what was written but rather what dissenters have done to it.
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Spot on.
 
The Church in Africa has grown by leaps and bounds over the last 20 years.
 
We have as a standard an inferior liturgy subjected to the whims or liturgical directors in the west. I look at this message board and I have to laugh. Want Benedict to fix it ? I honestly believe he is afraid to lose money from the US coffers. The new mass, in its condition, breeds abuse and message boards. Let’s put paint on the yugo.

The only real solution out of this mess is for our pope to allow any priest to say the TLM and recover, normalize relations with “schismatic” orders. Oh coarse most priests woln’t say the TLM but there will be enough around and traditional societies, with churches so when the real western schism occurs and the new American Catholic Episcopal Unity Church is officially formed the leftovers will have a place to go.
 
Steve Green:
We have as a standard an inferior liturgy subjected to the whims or liturgical directors in the west. I look at this message board and I have to laugh. Want Benedict to fix it ? I honestly believe he is afraid to lose money from the US coffers. The new mass, in its condition, breeds abuse and message boards. Let’s put paint on the yugo.

The only real solution out of this mess is for our pope to allow any priest to say the TLM and recover, normalize relations with “schismatic” orders. Oh coarse most priests woln’t say the TLM but there will be enough around and traditional societies, with churches so when the real western schism occurs and the new American Catholic Episcopal Unity Church is officially formed the leftovers will have a place to go.
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I have hope that Benedict will move to instruct the bishops to allow the TLM or at least the Indult (EWTN-like Mass) in every diocese.

Quite frankly, I think you are wrong about Benedict being “worried about money”. The truth is, the more orthodox a parish is, the more money will flow. He has indicated that he would be fine with a “smaller church”.

I also think you are mistaken about the Norvus Ordo. While I prefer the Latin Mass, it is NOT the Mass itself which breeds abuse, but PRIDE (in the form of modern liberalism) that leads to abuse.

I “get” the “rotten fruit of Vatican II” argument, BUT, by blaming Vatican II for it all, as opposed to the LIBERALS who abused it, it is akin to asigning blame to GOD Himself for Adam and Eve’s sinful pride in the Garden of Eden!
 
…as long as human beings are involved, you will have sin…

… that being said, the church is protected by the Holy Ghost…

…be not afraid,… he’s with us till the end of time, and where faith and moral are concerned, were gonna be ok…

…chill

Peace:thumbsup:
 
space ghost:
…as long as human beings are involved, you will have sin…

… that being said, the church is protected by the Holy Ghost…

…be not afraid,… he’s with us till the end of time, and where faith and moral are concerned, were gonna be ok…

…chill

Peace:thumbsup:
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The Holy SPACE Ghost??? 😃
 
The new mass is the vechicle for the abuse. I don’t blame VII. Again, I repeat ink on paper. If the liberals hijacked the new mass Paul Vi should have done something, JP I, no time, JPII, well, ah…

There are those that believe Benedict should ban the new mass. I disagree. The modernists, will destroy the last vestage of the immemorial ancient rite. Talk about a civil war !!

EVERYTHING that is a topic about abuse on this board is in some way directly or partly attributed to the new mass.
 
John Paul II’s funeral Mass was a Novus Ordo Mass.
Benedict XVI’s installation Mass was a Novus Ordo Mass.
Masses on EWTN are Novus Ordo.
Were / are those irreverent?

Every Novus Ordo Mass can be a “High Mass.”
Vatican II says that Latin and Gregorian chant shall have pride of place.
The official text of the Novus Ordo is in Latin.
Any priest may say the Novus Ordo in Latin, with no permission whatever required.
Any parish can use Gregorian chant for the parts of the Mass.

I certainly wouldn’t object to a universal permission for any priest to use the Tridentine Liturgy.

But problems with the current Mass are not due to Vatican II or the revised Mass itself, any more than a hastily mumbled Tridentine Mass can be blamed on the liturgy itself. In either case the liturgy can be abused.
 
I am going to end on a positive note . I do attend an eastern rite mission church here in Wichita. So I do fullfill my obligations by bypassing the new mass.
 
As long as I am a woman, I am not able to become a priest, then a bishop, and of course not a future pope. Therefore I will fulfill all my obligations as they are prescribed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church and it’s bishops, which are protected by the Holy Spirit. If some bishops and priests have no spine to explain what’s expected or to correct parishioners, that is a terrible shame. I’m doing the best I can.
 
Steve Green:
The new mass is the vechicle for the abuse. I don’t blame VII. Again, I repeat ink on paper. If the liberals hijacked the new mass Paul Vi should have done something, JP I, no time, JPII, well, ah…

There are those that believe Benedict should ban the new mass. I disagree. The modernists, will destroy the last vestage of the immemorial ancient rite. Talk about a civil war !!

EVERYTHING that is a topic about abuse on this board is in some way directly or partly attributed to the new mass.
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Take heart, Dear Friend!
Changes are coming, slow but changes. The young Catholics are more conservative and are having large families!
JPII was a great spiritual leader but not a great discipinarian. I feel that this is the reason why the College of Cardinals vote in B16. He is firmer.
St. Michael the Archangel used to be invoked at the end of every Holy Mass. We Humbly pray to him at the end of ours. Prayers and talking with our feet are all we have.
You have moved to a more conservative rite. Perhaps one day, you can come back. If not, you have made the right move.

Mother Angelica led the way. People are seeing that the innovations put in at their parishes are not always right. Catholics are taking a stand.
If you are ever in MI, come to my parish.
saintcyrils.org

You will see the NO the way it is suppose to be done.
 
As someone who has attended several churches where the NO mass was done properly and beautifully, I have to say that in my opinion it doesn’t hold a candle to the older TLM. The new NO rite is far too similar to my old Methodist service, and feels very “protestant” to me.

Personally, I think Catholics want to be and “feel” like Catholics. They don’t want ecumenism, they want authentic Catholicism. They want priests in cassocks, nuns in habits, and churches full of statues, candles, and incense. Otherwise, why bother?
 
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tcraig:
As someone who has attended several churches where the NO mass was done properly and beautifully, I have to say that in my opinion it doesn’t hold a candle to the older TLM. The new NO rite is far too similar to my old Methodist service, and feels very “protestant” to me.

Personally, I think Catholics want to be and “feel” like Catholics. They don’t want ecumenism, they want authentic Catholicism. They want priests in cassocks, nuns in habits, and churches full of statues, candles, and incense. Otherwise, why bother?
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Almost exactly what I wanted to say. I don’t believe the EWTN Masses, etc. are beautiful. Yes, the Gregorian Chant and the incense is helpful, and it’s nice to not see liturgical abuses, but it just can’t make up for the liturgy itself. Let’s not forget: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important thing we can offer on Earth.

Let’s be objective when we compare the two: Is not the TLM comparable to Abel’s offering, and the NO like Cain’s?

This is about God, after all, friends.
 
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jlw:
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is to blame.
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You make some some valid points Steve, but I have to agree with jlw. Lets face it, seventy-seven percent of the people in this country are non-Catholic and care little for what goes on in our services. As for what goes on in the Church herself, they tend to have a flatly erroneous, sometimes ridiculous view.

Yet the political and cultural scene is devastated across the board, not just in the Church. Vatican II surely offered a convenient cover for those Catholics who wanted immoderate change, but if it hadn’t happened they would have had to invent it. The Church was rocked by people who brought in the outside and incompatible doctrine “spelled-out” above- liberalism. I’m not just talking about politics here, but a complete, society-tranforming doctrine that has largely supplanted religious practice (or for some people, has become their religion).

The sad abuses found in our Church are the result of the culture, not (overwhelmingly) the Council, and I say this even though, on the whole, I agree with those above who prefer the TLM.
 
I see a parallel to something so stick with me here (and please don’t get any wrong impressions).

When my 73 year old mother was a child, she was disciplined with a “cane”. There was structure - everyone had chores and ate at least one meal together. Very harsh, but she survived and turned out to be a wonderful person (and no, I don’t advocate caning children).

When she raised us kids 45-50 years ago, it was open hand discipline and ditto on the structure - everyone worked and ate together. We turned out fine, and once again I don’t advocate hitting children.

Some 25 years ago, when my sister raised her daughter, she wanted to be her friend. Dinner was in the living room, everyone eating at different times, and in front of the TV. Oh, and they all ate something different. The child didn’t have to do anything she didn’t want to do because “she was her own person”. (Uh-hmm - no comment :rolleyes: )

Today, I see many parents learning to use techniques such as those taught by the famous “Nannies” of Nanny-911 and SuperNanny with great effectiveness. What are they teaching? Discipline and structure and they are doing it with outstanding results without caning or hitting.

Now my point…

The Catholic Church has gone through all of these stages. As I listen to mom talk about how she was petrified of the priests in her day, thinking she was going to hell no matter what (and I know they didn’t do this intentionally), I see the parallel to things in her day.

In the last 30 years, I feel that the Catholic Church in developed countries has treated us, the children, like friends, rather than as children who needed to develop a sense of discipline and structure. Not only was there no longer talk of sin and hell, but God was all loving and no matter what you did, or neglected to do, you were going to heaven and that’s all there is to it. My CCD training was this way in the 70’s. “God is love” and “love is God” to which I said, “but Sister, what does pride mean or lust, or gluttony?” And, sister would say, “Now don’t you fret about any of that because God is Love”. (not exact words by the way, but representative of how shallow catechesis became).

Now, in walks Benedict, the Big-Nanny. He is going to do to our Catholic Church what the Nannies have done for a few lucky families on TV. However, in time it will spread. What is now unfashionable, will become fashionable. Discipline and Structure were abhored in the 70’s and even the 80’s. Now, they are slowly making a comback. It will be the same with the Church. He is going to make the course correction as sure as I am typing this response and he will do it with Love and Compassion, not a cane or an open hand (to the disappointment of some, unfortunately).

:cool:
 
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