S
STT
Guest
Why should be eternally damned if we don’t want and accept God’s Love? He should still love us and set us free so we can live our ways.
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B
Brassring
Guest
Tell Him. See if He’s impressed by your reasoning.Why should be eternally damned if we don’t want and accept God’s Love? He should still love us and set us free so we can live our ways.
To live a life of faith, it helps to give up any notion of what you are entitled to. We are not God’s equals. We deserve no moral consideration.
C
ChurchSoldier
Guest
Because that’s the way it was set up. Knowing the consequences why would someone reject his love?Why should be eternally damned if we don’t want and accept God’s Love?
He does still love you, and respects your decision to be apart from him. A person who rejects him is being set free to live in their ways. It just happens that their ways takes them to a very unpleasant place.He should still love us and set us free so we can live our ways.
F
friardchips
Guest
Why not?Why…
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well let’s see.Why should be eternally damned if we don’t want and accept God’s Love? He should still love us and set us free so we can live our ways.
In corner A we have A Being who is completely good. Completely perfect. A Being who out of love made many other beings and offers them not just a few short years of existence, but eternal life and the chance to love Him in return. Completely loving (so loving that He will not even force people to accept His love, but gives them a place where they can have everything that they want. . .to be fully themselves, to be without Him, to be true to themselves, etc.
In corner B we a created being. Made from love. Made and given all the graces needed to love and be loved for eternity, not just by a couple of people in a few short years of existence. Made with all sorts of gifts and talents and given a mind that can reason.
That being and every single being created by God has an equal opportunity to love God, his neighbor, and himself. . .and love is the reason he was created and his ultimate reason for existence.
And that being will be fully aware of God’s love at the time of death, and will have only to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to God’s love.
You are offered love itself. You didn’t ‘earn’ it. You don’t deserve it. It is a free gift but it is priceless. It’s like being mired in a filthy pit among biting mosquitoes and surrounded by blaring noise. . .and suddenly a glorious king comes up to that pit and reaches out his hand to you, "take my hand, and I’ll take you out of this pit to a shining castle where you can wash yourself clean and have those bites treated and where you and I will live forever in perfect peace and harmony. All you have to do is reach up and take my hand’. . .
And you say, "No, I prefer the pit, because if I can’t get out of it all on my own and not with the help of some person I don’t know, I’d rather be here. At least I know where I am. Maybe I like mud. I’m used to the mosquitoes. I don’t want to have to wash myself, if I’m not good enough to go to your place just as I am, then to hell with your palace. If you really wanted peace and harmony, you would let me get out of here on my own without your help. If you really wanted peace and harmony, you would let me be as dirty and noisy as I want. I don’t care how beautiful things are outside this pit, I only want to do things my way or else I won’t accept you or your offer. In fact, your offer is unfair and degrading. You don’t care about me, you want to force me to do what YOU want instead of what I want. How dare you set yourself over me? You’re not the boss of me. I am my own boss. I do what I want. Nobody tells me what to do
And you sit in your pit because that is what you have chosen. You even glory in it. "I guess I told HIM a thing or two. I guess I showed HIM who’s boss. I have proven that the real ruler of the universe is me. I made God accept what I wanted. I rejected HIM. I’m the one in charge. He’ll never have me. He might have made me, but I chose MY destiny. I chose to have my way.
That ‘pit’ is your sin, forever unrepented, forever being chosen again, over and over. And your ‘torments’, whatever they might be, will not involve regret. Rather, your torment is that you got what you wanted, and it was not what you needed. And forever after you will have what you wanted, and you will know what you needed but you won’t care that you don’t have that, you will just eat away at your own soul with hateful pride and your world will shrink to 'me me me". No love but self-love and nothing but the cackle of your demonic raging, “I got what I wanted, He couldn’t make me give it up, I got what I wanted, He couldn’t make me give it up”. . .l
R
Roseeurekacross
Guest
Why should you want the love and the freedom of Someone’s love you don’t want?Why should be eternally damned if we don’t want and accept God’s Love? He should still love us and set us free so we can live our ways.
M
mikekle
Guest
Why would it have to be unpleasant though? After all God is God, he can do anything, it would be fully in his power to create a ‘neutral’ place in the afterlife, for those that do not choose God, but not necessarily choose evil either.Because that’s the way it was set up. Knowing the consequences why would someone reject his love?
He does still love you, and respects your decision to be apart from him. A person who rejects him is being set free to live in their ways. It just happens that their ways takes them to a very unpleasant place.
A
ANV
Guest
If someone doesn’t love me back, or doesn’t even realize that I exist, as a human I wouldn’t burn them or punish them, and I’m not all loving.Why would it have to be unpleasant though? After all God is God, he can do anything, it would be fully in his power to create a ‘neutral’ place in the afterlife, for those that do not choose God, but not necessarily choose evil either.
If God has an all loving nature as some say, then Hell’s punishment is inconsistent with his loving nature, but again, a being who created suffering for the innocents would be very much possible for him to create suffering and Hell to those who do not follow him, Hell is pretty consistent with such a God.
W
Wesrock
Guest
God distances Himself from those in hell, such that they feel his absence. Those who have distanced themselves further, feel that distance further.If someone doesn’t love me back, or doesn’t even realize that I exist, as a human I wouldn’t burn them or punish them, and I’m not all loving.
It’s not only a matter of loving God, though. Everyone has done wrong in their lives. No one has avoided that through their own power. The Christian is a sinner the same as the atheist, but the Christian realizes (hopefully) that he’s not able to overcome such things on his own. People are punished proportionally to the evils and injustices they did in this life, and a person’s actions in this life determine if they obstinately persist in evil of their own free will in the next. People set themselves up for it on their own. Evil demands punishment to be made right.
W
Wesrock
Guest
Blame God for sin all you want. He permits our free will, but we do the evil. You rage against God when you should be recognizing our own failings. Suffering here on Earth wasn’t imposed by God. It’s something we do to ourselves, individually and collectively, and unless you claim you’ve done no evil (and if you did I’d call you a liar), you’re a contributor to our plight.If God has an all loving nature as some say, then Hell’s punishment is inconsistent with his loving nature, but again, a being who created suffering for the innocents would be very much possible for him to create suffering and Hell to those who do not follow him, Hell is pretty consistent with such a God.
S
STT
Guest
I hear nothing back when I tell Him!Tell Him. See if He’s impressed by your reasoning.
I cannot say how much I disagree with you.To live a life of faith, it helps to give up any notion of what you are entitled to. We are not God’s equals. We deserve no moral consideration.
S
STT
Guest
I might not feel love for Him. Why I should? He left us on the earth. I see no sign of love from Him. I suffer.Because that’s the way it was set up. Knowing the consequences why would someone reject his love?
That is not something I would do if I was instead of Him. Being tortured for not loving Him. Which kind of justice it is?He does still love you, and respects your decision to be apart from him. A person who rejects him is being set free to live in their ways. It just happens that their ways takes them to a very unpleasant place.
A
ANV
Guest
Evil demands punishment to be made right, yet God is able to forgive a mass murderer if he repents, where is the justice in that? Is God’s mercy above his justice? Is the mass murderer’s free will above the victim’s suffering? such a thing is not justice, you’re contradicting your own argument.God distances Himself from those in hell, such that they feel his absence. Those who have distanced themselves further, feel that distance further.
It’s not only a matter of loving God, though. Everyone has done wrong in their lives. No one has avoided that through their own power. The Christian is a sinner the same as the atheist, but the Christian realizes (hopefully) that he’s not able to overcome such things on his own. People are punished proportionally to the evils and injustices they did in this life, and a person’s actions in this life determine if they obstinately persist in evil of their own free will in the next. People set themselves up for it on their own. Evil demands punishment to be made right.
If you believe that God created everything then who made suffering? me? you? who else but this God?Blame God for sin all you want. He permits our free will, but we do the evil. You rage against God when you should be recognizing our own failings. Suffering here on Earth wasn’t imposed by God. It’s something we do to ourselves, individually and collectively, and unless you claim you’ve done no evil (and if you did I’d call you a liar), you’re a contributor to our plight.
Suffering exists with or without humans, therefore the excuse of free will doesn’t explain suffering.
S
STT
Guest
Because this is not just even fair in human scale. We don’t torture people if they don’t love us. One should expect more than God since He is perfect.Why not?
F
friardchips
Guest
The atheist and the believer in God might well have differing views in response to the following:Because this is not just even fair in human scale. We don’t torture people if they don’t love us. One should expect more than God since He is perfect.
What does freedom mean to you (rhetorical)?
S
STT
Guest
Well let’s see.
In corner A we have A Being who is completely good. Completely perfect. A Being who out of love made many other beings and offers them not just a few short years of existence, but eternal life and the chance to love Him in return. Completely loving (so loving that He will not even force people to accept His love, but gives them a place where they can have everything that they want. . .to be fully themselves, to be without Him, to be true to themselves, etc.
In corner B we a created being. Made from love. Made and given all the graces needed to love and be loved for eternity, not just by a couple of people in a few short years of existence. Made with all sorts of gifts and talents and given a mind that can reason.
That being and every single being created by God has an equal opportunity to love God, his neighbor, and himself. . .and love is the reason he was created and his ultimate reason for existence.
And that being will be fully aware of God’s love at the time of death, and will have only to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to God’s love.
Yes, I was not responsible for coming into this world, I am intrinsically a sinner, I don’t deserve love, I am suffering in this world for a reason I don’t know, I am confused and my search for truth goes nowhere, and more… Why should I love my life? Why should I love God who left me in such a condition?You are offered love itself. You didn’t ‘earn’ it. You don’t deserve it. It is a free gift but it is priceless. It’s like being mired in a filthy pit among biting mosquitoes and surrounded by blaring noise. . .and suddenly a glorious king comes up to that pit and reaches out his hand to you, "take my hand, and I’ll take you out of this pit to a shining castle where you can wash yourself clean and have those bites treated and where you and I will live forever in perfect peace and harmony. All you have to do is reach up and take my hand’. . .
I might deserve more than the pit. But yes, I wan to do what I want.And you say, "No, I prefer the pit, because if I can’t get out of it all on my own and not with the help of some person I don’t know, I’d rather be here. At least I know where I am. Maybe I like mud. I’m used to the mosquitoes. I don’t want to have to wash myself, if I’m not good enough to go to your place just as I am, then to hell with your palace. If you really wanted peace and harmony, you would let me get out of here on my own without your help. If you really wanted peace and harmony, you would let me be as dirty and noisy as I want. I don’t care how beautiful things are outside this pit, I only want to do things my way or else I won’t accept you or your offer. In fact, your offer is unfair and degrading. You don’t care about me, you want to force me to do what YOU want instead of what I want. How dare you set yourself over me? You’re not the boss of me. I am my own boss. I do what I want. Nobody tells me what to do
What is wrong to be my own boss?And you sit in your pit because that is what you have chosen. You even glory in it. "I guess I told HIM a thing or two. I guess I showed HIM who’s boss. I have proven that the real ruler of the universe is me. I made God accept what I wanted. I rejected HIM. I’m the one in charge. He’ll never have me. He might have made me, but I chose MY destiny. I chose to have my way.
No. That is not just just.That ‘pit’ is your sin, forever unrepented, forever being chosen again, over and over. And your ‘torments’, whatever they might be, will not involve regret. Rather, your torment is that you got what you wanted, and it was not what you needed. And forever after you will have what you wanted, and you will know what you needed but you won’t care that you don’t have that, you will just eat away at your own soul with hateful pride and your world will shrink to 'me me me". No love but self-love and nothing but the cackle of your demonic raging, “I got what I wanted, He couldn’t make me give it up, I got what I wanted, He couldn’t make me give it up”. . .l
V
Vonsalza
Guest
What a man think is just is immaterial. The only relevant opinion is the judge’s.No. That is not just just.
S
STT
Guest
The state of being free to act according to the meaning.The atheist and the believer in God might well have differing views in response to the following:
What does freedom mean to you (rhetorical)?
What freedom has to do with the topic of this thread.
S
STT
Guest
That is a failure on God side if He could not convince His creatures that He is just.What a man think is just is immaterial. The only relevant opinion is the judge’s.
F
friardchips
Guest
What do you mean by “free”, in the sentence, “free to act”?The state of being free to act according to the meaning.
Everything.What freedom has to do with the topic of this thread.
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