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still talking about God riding cherub and wind wings ? or is it a different topic?
It does have a lot to do with the topic my dear. The question was of making God riding on cherob. You said thats poetic, which proves poetic blasphemy is allowed in Christianity.
yes but first, this is Jewish Bible you are quoting from so poetic “blasphemy” is Jewish, and second, we Christians do not deny previous scriptures, neither did Jesus. You find it blasphemous because you are not used to this language when the Bible is full of such language. That was the language used thousands of years ago and nothing can change it. There are certain images used in each language. God riding a cherub, or the wind or the sea or what have you are images used , back then, to show God’s power, nothing less, nothing more. You can blame the Jewish poetic language and not us 🙂
You do that even today with the image of Jesus (pbuh). You create image, when you now it is not true.
yea we know it is not true because we don’t have a real picture of Jesus so each people try to imagine how he looked like. What’s so bad in this?
Every idol worshipers (Like Hindus) answer the same way as you did. Picture or idols have nothing to do but the person they imagine. Idolatory is not prohibited because people really believed idols can walk and talk. It is prohibited because, they are making image of God and they see God in that Image.
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i don't know if you are talking in reference to the Bible or not, but making statues is NOT forbidden. What is forbidden is believing that these statues are your god. Dunno of Hindus, but Christians do not consider a statue God. A statue/picture is simply a representation of someone you hold dear, or a religious symbol you put in church or home, just like God ordered Moses to makes 2 angelic statues in the Temple and Moses surely was no pagan. What matters is intention. Making pictures of animals, for educational purposes, is not haram in islam. Why if making animal pictures otherwise is bad? it's intentions knowing that no monotheist is fool enough to worship an image.
And we don’t create samples of black stone or Kaaba and do pray towards it. But you make cross, image of Jesus (pbuh) and idols and fall on knee pray to it. you amy don’t worship the image but you do pray infront of it.
sorry but how does it make it different than you praying toward a black stone and kissing it or putting it’s picture at home?isn’t it a direction you follow? lol We don’t pray to a statue even if we are infront of it in the same way you dont pray to a black stone even if you are infront of it.
You do talk to idols and images, right?
i don’t but i can answer for those who do 🙂 depends on what you understand by “talk” . If you mean that we expect an answer from that picture then no 🙂 if you mean that we are adressing the person whom the picture represents, then yes. You do kiss a black stone don’t you? is that idol worship? what does it mean to kiss a stone? does it have a theological reason? does it represent anything? if yes, then statues represent the same thing for which you kiss and pray toward a black stone.
We Muslims don’t keep picture or idol of Moon infront of us while praying. We don’t talk to it.
you have a black stone infront of you. How is that any different?
 
Every idol worshipers (Like Hindus) answer the same way as you did. Picture or idols have nothing to do but the person they imagine. Idolatory is not prohibited because people really believed idols can walk and talk. It is prohibited because, they are making image of God and they see God in that Image.
Actually, a Hindu murti is seen as a representation, a sign, an indication, of God, not God Himself.
 
Khalfan;2561392 said:
still talking about God riding cherub and wind wings ? or is it a different topic?
Not only that. There are many other ‘Poetic’ description of God and about people.
yes but first, this is Jewish Bible you are quoting from so poetic “blasphemy” is Jewish, and second, we Christians do not deny previous scriptures, neither did Jesus. You find it blasphemous because you are not used to this language when the Bible is full of such language. That was the language used thousands of years ago and nothing can change it. There are certain images used in each language. God riding a cherub, or the wind or the sea or what have you are images used , back then, to show God’s power, nothing less, nothing more. You can blame the Jewish poetic language and not us 🙂
Wow… thats something new. I don’t understand where are you know. You accept OT and reject the contents, becasue most of it imaginery, not true. Now the only question about OT is, how much is true, and how much is untrue. Then if we go further deep, if the writers were really writing about the true God, if the writers were really eligible to write it, would more helpful to understand the situation.
yea we know it is not true because we don’t have a real picture of Jesus so each people try to imagine how he looked like. What’s so bad in this?
Imagine, you are a child of 6 or 7 year old. You are reading the above verse of God riding the cherob or some similar activity of God, what will come to your mind? Most probably you will be picturising a Man like God who runs here and there and doing man like doings. That is what the picture you have in your mind and you grow up with that. the picture too gets bigger and bigger as you grow. Even after you learn God is a spirit, a shapeless form, you still imagine God in an old father man shape which is nothing morethan a lie. You do it with Jesus (pbuh) as well. The basic problem with it is, as far as you go imaginig God in your own mind and picturising as you like, you have lost originality of God somewhere in the begenning, and so now you know the picture or the imagination but not the original.
i don’t know if you are talking in reference to the Bible or not, but making statues is NOT forbidden. What is forbidden is believing that these statues are your god. Dunno of Hindus, but Christians do not consider a statue God. A statue/picture is simply a representation of someone you hold dear, or a religious symbol you put in church or home, just like God ordered Moses to makes 2 angelic statues in the Temple and Moses surely was no pagan. What matters is intention. Making pictures of animals, for educational purposes, is not haram in islam. Why if making animal pictures otherwise is bad? it’s intentions knowing that no monotheist is fool enough to worship an image.
That dearness creates the feel and affection towards the statue as it is a God. Why do pray infront of it? Becasue you see God in that image or statue. Why do you light candles near statues of Jesus (pbuh)? Becasue you feel the presence of God right there. Indeed, intention is what matters.
sorry but how does it make it different than you praying toward a black stone and kissing it or putting it’s picture at home?isn’t it a direction you follow? lol We don’t pray to a statue even if we are infront of it in the same way you dont pray to a black stone even if you are infront of it.
Becasue that stone or Kaaba doesn’t come to our mind at all for any reason. Thats not the case in Christianity. When you pray to Jesus (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) do appear in your mind. We pray tawards Kaaba, becasue Mohamed (pbuh) parayed so and taught us to do so while praying. We kiss the stone becasue Mohamed (pbuh) kissed the stone, so we kiss the stone while go there. Now, did Jesus (pbuh) ever pray infront of any statue ever? No. Did Jesus (pbuh) ever wear cross on the neck? No. Did Jesus (pbuh) ever kiss a cross? No. Then who invented those?

Continue.
 
Continue.
i don’t but i can answer for those who do 🙂 depends on what you understand by “talk” . If you mean that we expect an answer from that picture then no 🙂 if you mean that we are adressing the person whom the picture represents, then yes. You do kiss a black stone don’t you? is that idol worship? what does it mean to kiss a stone? does it have a theological reason? does it represent anything? if yes, then statues represent the same thing for which you kiss and pray toward a black stone.
It is better to learn what that black stone represent. Does it represent a man? No. God? No. then what? It represent nothing theologically my dear. We believe it belong to Heaven. But it doesn’t represent heaven. Ibrahim (pbuh) placed it is kaaba. Prophet (pbuh) kissed it in that sense so we do. Do you consider the statue of Jesus (pbuh) just as a stone, and kiss it just for nothing?
you have a black stone infront of you. How is that any different?
where, thousands of miles away?!! Thats not what you do or how you see a statue of Jesus (pbuh). so stop comparing it.
 
yea a picture represents someone, so? i hope you are not someone who thinks that looking at someone’s photo is idol worship 😃
It is better to evaluate yourself, when you are standing infront of the statue of Jesus (pbuh) (As you suppose) in the church. Check what comes in your mind and why.
 

yea which shows it is a stylistic feature used back then.🙂
Wow… thats something new. I don’t understand where are you know. You accept OT and reject the contents
, becasue most of it imaginery, not true. Now the only question about OT is, how much is true, and how much is untrue. Then if we go further deep, if the writers were really writing about the true God, if the writers were really eligible to write it, would more helpful to understand the situation. says who? i don’t reject the content, you do. What is metaphorical and what is not is usually determined from context. What you are quoting are an example of figurative language and that’s how Jews understand it.
Imagine, you are a child of 6 or 7 year old. You are reading the above verse of God riding the cherob or some similar activity of God, what will come to your mind? Most probably you will be picturising a Man like God who runs here and there and doing man like doings. That is what the picture you have in your mind and you grow up with that. the picture too gets bigger and bigger as you grow. Even after you learn God is a spirit, a shapeless form, you still imagine God in an old father man shape which is nothing morethan a lie. You do it with Jesus (pbuh) as well. The basic problem with it is, as far as you go imaginig God in your own mind and picturising as you like, you have lost originality of God somewhere in the begenning, and so now you know the picture or the imagination but not the original.
how is this any different from Allah having a face, a hand, feet, eyes, chin as per Quran and Sunna?
That dearness creates the feel and affection towards the statue as it is a God. Why do pray infront of it? Becasue you see God in that image or statue. Why do you light candles near statues of Jesus (pbuh)? Becasue you feel the presence of God right there. Indeed, intention is what matters.
why do you pray infront of a black stone? why do you kiss a black stone? indeed intention is what matters.
Becasue that stone or Kaaba doesn’t come to our mind at all for any reason.
Thats not the case in Christianity. When you pray to Jesus (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) do appear in your mind. We pray tawards Kaaba, becasue Mohamed (pbuh) parayed so and taught us to do so while praying. We kiss the stone becasue Mohamed (pbuh) kissed the stone, so we kiss the stone while go there. in fact, the first thing you inquire about is the direction of the Qibla. You can’t pray to a different direction so it is in your mind. What is in your mind as well is ablution, the carpet you pray on, the clothes you put and how to do the Rakaat in the correct way. What we have in mind is God directly. So yuo kiss the stone only because Muhammad said so? no theololical reason?
Now, did Jesus (pbuh) ever pray infront of any statue ever? No. Did Jesus (pbuh) ever wear cross on the neck? No. Did Jesus (pbuh) ever kiss a cross? No. Then who invented those?
He wore the cross on His shoulders and asked us to hold our crosses and follow Him 🙂
 
It is better to evaluate yourself, when you are standing infront of the statue of Jesus (pbuh) (As you suppose) in the church. Check what comes in your mind and why.
first off, i don’t have to stand in front of any statue at church. Second, if i were to stand infront of Jesus’ statue, i’d be thinking of Jesus obviously since i chose to stand infront of a statue that represents Him:)

Now you will reply : see? you are not thinking about God but about Jesus! which brings us back to our point : is thinking about God’s Wisdom different than thinking about God?🙂
 
I supposed that sounded like a dumb question with everyone talking to you as if you are Muslim, but I just didn’t see where you told anyone what faith you belonged to.

Anyway, I have a question for you. I made friends with some Muslims awhile back and they offered to teach me about Islam. I started by reading the Koran.

Something I thought was odd is that Mohammad is the direct descendent of Kedar who, if I remember correctly, is the first born of Ishmael. So, the lineage goes Abraham, Ishmael, Kedar and Kedar’s twelve sons. However, the Koran never once mentions Kedar. Instead the lineage always reads: Abraham, Ishmael,** Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob’s twelve sons.** Which appears to support the Christian Bible’s lineage to Jesus.

I am seriously interested in how this is explained.

Thanks
 
I supposed that sounded like a dumb question with everyone talking to you as if you are Muslim, but I just didn’t see where you told anyone what faith you belonged to.

Anyway, I have a question for you. I made friends with some Muslims awhile back and they offered to teach me about Islam. I started by reading the Koran.

Something I thought was odd is that Mohammad is the direct descendent of Kedar who, if I remember correctly, is the first born of Ishmael. So, the lineage goes Abraham, Ishmael, Kedar and Kedar’s twelve sons. However, the Koran never once mentions Kedar. Instead the lineage always reads: Abraham, Ishmael,** Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob’s twelve sons.** Which appears to support the Christian Bible’s lineage to Jesus.

I am seriously interested in how this is explained.

Thanks
Can you quote that lineage from Quran? So that I can explain the verse.
 
first off, i don’t have to stand in front of any statue at church. Second, if i were to stand infront of Jesus’ statue, i’d be thinking of Jesus obviously since i chose to stand infront of a statue that represents Him:)
Thats what. We don’t feel anything on kaaba, even if we stand infront of it. It just a direction. A uniformity in praying is the purpose to turn towards it. We don’t imagine God sitting in the Kaaba.
Now you will reply : see? you are not thinking about God but about Jesus! which brings us back to our point : is thinking about God’s Wisdom different than thinking about God?🙂
Ha… Ha… I like that. You are talking about Jesus -the God. I am talking about the God that even Jesus (pbuh) prayed and worshiped my dear. Thats a big difference. Do Wisdom of God pray to its God (who supposed to be wisdomless then)?
 
Thats what. We don’t feel anything on kaaba, even if we stand infront of it. It just a direction. A uniformity in praying is the purpose to turn towards it. We don’t imagine God sitting in the Kaaba.

do you kiss it because of uniformity in praying as well?
Ha… Ha… I like that. You are talking about Jesus -the God. I am talking about the God, Jesus (pbuh) prayed and worshiped my dear. Thats a big difference. Do Wisdom of God pray to its God (who supposed to be wisdomless then)?
 
The Koran always states the lineage this way: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob’s twelve sons.

That makes no sense to me since, if you took out Ishmael, it would be exactly like the Christian Bible’s lineage to Jesus.

Mohammad is the direct descendent of Kedar. Why doesn’t the Koran say: Abraham, Ishmael, Kedar and Kedar’s twelve sons ?

The Koran never once mentions Kedar…but repeatedly lists Isaac, Jacob and Jacob’s twelve son’s.

It’s that way throughout the Koran. You can look at any verse that lists the lineage - they are all the same.
 
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