Whys and wherefors of contraception/NFP

[Catholic2003]

Tim Hayes:

What if peopel were to abstein during the supposedly fertile time but still use artificial means during the other times.

No, this is still sinful. From Humanae Vitae:

The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.

“Each and every” means during both fertile and infertile periods.

 

[Shari]

I agree about reading Cristopher West’s Good news about sex and marriage. It is an excellent book. Just a couple points I would like to add, what we were taught, is that number 1 the abstaining to not have children should not be for a selfish reason. If you are married and God gives you the ability to bear children then that is your calling. God never gives us more then what we can handle, sometimes what we think we can handle is less than what God thinks we can handle. Also when abstaining it should be done with prayer. In the book of Duetoronomy it says(I am paraphrasing)don’t with hold intercourse from your spouse unless it is for a short time and a prayerful reason and then come back together so not to be tempted. I can’t say how much using NFP has been helpful to my marriage. We are finally willing to do Gods will even when we don’t think we are ready for another baby, but God always provides for us. When we used BC we were putting something between us and God. Just my humble oppinion. Also sex shouldn’t be just about having climaxes and not every female is IN THE MOOD just during the fertile time.

Shari

 

[Marys_daughter]

Tim Hayes:

What if peopel were to abstein during the supposedly fertile time but still use artificial means during the other times.

The Marital Act should be both unitive and procreative. Using ABC cuts off the unitive aspect of the act. The spouses who use ABC are with their bodies telling each, I want all of you…well not quite all of you…I don’t like your God given fertility so let’s see if we can “break” it so it doesn’t work the way its designed to. That’s not unitive. Every Marital Act should also be open to new life, even if we know its not likely to happen due to time of month, infertility or menopause.

Thanks,
Stephanie

 

[JoaoMachado]

If I may put my two cents in; My wife and I have been married for 8 years, we have two daughters and a third coming next month. We used to use ABC, actually I was in charge of that. Within the last three years, as I have been coming back to the faith, I started coming up against ABC and the Church teaching. After much distress and completely wigging my wife out. I ordered the NFP kit without her knowing it (that really ticked her off) and we both read and talked about it and decided to give it a shot. (pardon the pund) I also had her hear a talk from Tim Staples from St. Joseph Radio, it can be heard here. The difference it made in our lives is astonishing. Respect for life abounds. We were so open to life after starting NFP, that 4 months later we decided to just let it happen if it happened. Two months later Meredith was conceived! We will NEVER go against GOD again.

I mean this with all do respect to everyone here, the Church trys to explain it in the terms of Love, but the debates revolve around sex!

(Here is a post on used on another forum)

Genesis 1:26-28 DRB
(26) And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
(27) And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
(28) And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.

Luke 1:35 DRB
(35) And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also t**he Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

**If man and woman were created in the Image of God, which is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then it is man, woman and ??? (Child)

The Trinity is perfect love, three persons one GOD, from that love, that perfect union, Christ was born through a Woman, filled with the Holy Ghost. So too when a Man and a Woman unite in Love, the result is Creation.

If a man is to truly to look at what he is desgined for, it is to provide! The muscles, the build it is completely suited for this task.

If a woman is to truly look at what she is desgined for, it is to give life.

If you combine the two, you have “Provider of Life” now, oddly enough, that is what GOD does.

Joao**

 

[crimson_dragon]

so are we ORDERED to always have children if married? suppose you and the wife simply have no desire at the time to have children? or lets assume you never do? i have nothing against having children, but for some people, just keeping the relationship between them alive is hard enough as it is, and i dont see how not wanting a child for various reasons is always selfish. Interestingly enough, ive always imagined if i got married i doubt i would want children (it could change though), but if on the other hand i remain single, i will probably seriously consider adopting a child. just my thoughts.

 

[JoaoMachado]

crimson dragon:

so are we ORDERED to always have children if married? suppose you and the wife simply have no desire at the time to have children? or lets assume you never do? i have nothing against having children, but for some people, just keeping the relationship between them alive is hard enough as it is, and i dont see how not wanting a child for various reasons is always selfish. Interestingly enough, ive always imagined if i got married i doubt i would want children (it could change though), but if on the other hand i remain single, i will probably seriously consider adopting a child. just my thoughts.

In my opinion, from my experience and what I read in Scripture and what the Church teaches, no marriage will ever be complete unless they are open to life, whether they receive it or not.

I used to say to friends and family when our second child was born, “we caught our limit, I checked the licence and our limit is two” What a pathetic statement, but it reflected my attitude toward life and I didn’t even know it!

Joao

 

[crimson_dragon]

JoaoMachado:

In my opinion, from my experience and what I read in Scripture and what the Church teaches, no marriage will ever be complete unless they are open to life, whether they receive it or not.

i never said i was against nfp, i would only use that and not artificial contraception.

but i have another question. what exactly is it that most people just dont use nfp anyways? why use those condoms and pills when they could just do this? from what ive read, all it takes is just knowing the time your not fertile and thats it! no sideffects or cant-feel-anything rubber or other negative effects. looks like the church has scored another brilliant point again.

lastly, anybody know the definitive effectiveness of it if properly used? ive heard someplaces its 60% and up to 100% and everywhere in between, but i cant seem to find any definitive answer on this (if there are any)

 

[Bea_sMom]

I’ll name a few reasons that come to mind why people don’t use NFP…

1. They can’t have sex whenever they want
2. They feel it’s too much “work”
3. They don’t realize or believe ABC is against the Church

My mom was blown away when I told her my fiance and I were not only saving the marital act for our marriage (how ironic but that we were attending NFP classes as part of our pre-cana. She was really impressed with John (my fiance) because my mom and dad started out using the rhythm method (NFP for the 60’s, but the impression I got from my mom was that my dad didn’t have the “patience,” for lack of a better word.

The second reason is because first you have to learn the Sympto-Thermal Method and then apply it to your daily routine. A woman needs to keep a daily record of her basal body (waking) temperature, internal and external fertile signs, and coitus acts. This can be a pain, especially if she doesn’t have the support of her husband. As JoaoMachado said, when a couple uses NFP and is in it together the effects are astonishing!

I can’t explain the third reason, only to say everyone is on their own faith journey. I used to be an ABC user (not to mention pro-choice ) in my teens and early 20’s and have since done a 180 in my beliefs - Thank God!

As far as NFP’s effectiveness, the numbers change depending on how well the couple is following the rules. Since every woman’s body is different - she may have stronger or weaker signs, longer or shorter monthly cycles, or the couple may decide their desire for each other out-weighs their desire to postpone children The use of NFP is supposed to be a prayerful one. My husband and I practiced NFP to postpone pregnancy the first 9 months of our marriage because I did not get added to his employer’s insurance policy in the 30-day window after our wedding, but as soon as January 1 open enrollment rolled around we weren’t as careful and by the end of the month, voila!, Beatrice Rosemary was on her way So even though people tend to think of NFP as primarily for the postponement of children, it’s highly effective in the procreation of children, as well!

Love and God bless,
Bea’s Mom

 

[Rivera]

Just as an aside for those following the thread, I like the word “amorous” to mean ‘highly desirous of sex’ instead of ‘h****y’.

We’ve used NFP since the birth of our first child. I think some of the benefits you may experience after moving to NFP are an increased respect for each other’s sexuallity and, as another here said, a greater respect for life. You may even find yourself really wanting that 3rd and 4th baby. Our moving to NFP has blessed the entire family because it ushered in a whole change in attitude about how we view our family.

The teachings around birth control are in one sense very simple and beautiful, I always recognized that even when I rejected them. But in another sense they are very difficult to explain to the modern mind. I recommend the ‘just do it’ approach. Take a leap of faith, consult your spouse, buy a nfp book (or better, take a class) and try it. You trust that the Church is true, give them the benefit of the doubt and give this method a try.

God bless,
n

 

[Shari]

Shari:

I agree about reading Cristopher West’s Good news about sex and marriage. It is an excellent book. Just a couple points I would like to add, what we were taught, is that number 1 the abstaining to not have children should not be for a selfish reason. If you are married and God gives you the ability to bear children then that is your calling. God never gives us more then what we can handle, sometimes what we think we can handle is less than what God thinks we can handle. Also when abstaining it should be done with prayer. In the book of Duetoronomy it says(I am paraphrasing)don’t with hold intercourse from your spouse unless it is for a short time and a prayerful reason and then come back together so not to be tempted. I can’t say how much using NFP has been helpful to my marriage. We are finally willing to do Gods will even when we don’t think we are ready for another baby, but God always provides for us. When we used BC we were putting something between us and God. Just my humble oppinion. Also sex shouldn’t be just about having climaxes and not every female is IN THE MOOD just during the fertile time.

Shari

I need to correct myself it isn’t Duetoronomy that talks about not withhold sex from your spouse, it is 1 Chorinthians chapter 7.
Also for the person who was worried about not pleasing their wife because she is just really in the mood, do you plan on doing “IT” after she goes through menapause. You don’t ovulate anymore. Just something to think about.

Shari

 

[Shari]

crimson dragon:

so are we ORDERED to always have children if married? suppose you and the wife simply have no desire at the time to have children? or lets assume you never do? i have nothing against having children, but for some people, just keeping the relationship between them alive is hard enough as it is, and i dont see how not wanting a child for various reasons is always selfish. Interestingly enough, ive always imagined if i got married i doubt i would want children (it could change though), but if on the other hand i remain single, i will probably seriously consider adopting a child. just my thoughts.

When in the married life part of the vows are to be open to new life. Just not wanting children becuase you don’t want to deal with them or because you want it to be just your spouse and yourself, that would probably be considered a selfish reason. A non-selfish reason is something along the lines of: we already have 3 children and the money is tight or my current family and obligations stress me out a lot right now, ect… Those would be ok reasons to try and postpone pregnancy.

Hope that helps
Shari

 

[Dr_Paul]

Crimson Dragon,

You inquired about the actual effectiveness of NFP. Since I am an endocrinologist (hormone doctor) and have read extensively the scientific literature on NFP, I feel at least somewhat qualified to respond. I am not however an “expert” on the topic since I generally work with children. First, it must be recognized that the term NFP includes many different methods, not all with equal reliability. Second, there are 2 reported measures of effectiveness. The first is how effective the method is if it is used 100% correctly 100% of the time (method effectiveness). In real life, this is nearly impossible to acheive. Therefore, a more useful measure is how effective the method is in real life (use effectiveness). Without going through an exhaustive detailing of all of the methods of NFP in use and their respective effectiveness, knowledge of fertile and infertile times has grown tremendously over the last few decades, and would be fair to say that effectiveness of many of the methods is comparable to using the pill. The only 100% effective method is 100% abstinance.

I think ignorance of what NFP is and what it does for a marriage is the main reason why more people are not using it. When I was in medical school, the only education I received on NFP was a single statement saying “and then there is the rhythm and blues method and it doesn’t work”. I would bet that most physicians (including most Catholic MDs) do not know much more than this.

Learning to use NFP effectively can certainly be a challenge for a couple (especially the idea of periodic abstinance). However, in my experience, the rewards are almost beyond adequate description. The statistics on marital satisfaction and virtual nonexistence of divorce speak quite strongly on the overall effect on a marriage. I resisted the Church’s teaching on this topic for far too long. It was only after I accepted the teaching (initially on obedience alone) that I began to see how destructive contraception is and how beautiful God’s plan is. Using NFP completely transforms a marriage. The benefits go far beyond the spacing out of children.

 

[JoaoMachado]

Dr.Paul is right, it is very hard to put into words the benefits of NFP.

Joao

 

[ShanMcCatholic]

Bea'(name removed by moderator):

I’ll name a few reasons that come to mind why people don’t use NFP…

1. They can’t have sex whenever they want
2. They feel it’s too much “work”
3. They don’t realize or believe ABC is against the Church

My mom was blown away when I told her my fiance and I were not only saving the marital act for our marriage (how ironic but that we were attending NFP classes as part of our pre-cana. She was really impressed with John (my fiance) because my mom and dad started out using the rhythm method (NFP for the 60’s, but the impression I got from my mom was that my dad didn’t have the “patience,” for lack of a better word.

The second reason is because first you have to learn the Sympto-Thermal Method and then apply it to your daily routine. A woman needs to keep a daily record of her basal body (waking) temperature, internal and external fertile signs, and coitus acts. This can be a pain, especially if she doesn’t have the support of her husband. As JoaoMachado said, when a couple uses NFP and is in it together the effects are astonishing!

I can’t explain the third reason, only to say everyone is on their own faith journey. I used to be an ABC user (not to mention pro-choice ) in my teens and early 20’s and have since done a 180 in my beliefs - Thank God!

As far as NFP’s effectiveness, the numbers change depending on how well the couple is following the rules. Since every woman’s body is different - she may have stronger or weaker signs, longer or shorter monthly cycles, or the couple may decide their desire for each other out-weighs their desire to postpone children The use of NFP is supposed to be a prayerful one. My husband and I practiced NFP to postpone pregnancy the first 9 months of our marriage because I did not get added to his employer’s insurance policy in the 30-day window after our wedding, but as soon as January 1 open enrollment rolled around we weren’t as careful and by the end of the month, voila!, Beatrice Rosemary was on her way So even though people tend to think of NFP as primarily for the postponement of children, it’s highly effective in the procreation of children, as well!

Love and God bless,
Bea’s Mom

Your posts in this thread are great!! I just wanted to point out one thing though-- that Billings method does not require a woman to take her temperature daily. We have used this method effectively for both postponing and achieving pregnancy- even during breastfeeding and weaning. Each method has pro’s and con’s- and I think a lot of choosing amethod is finding one that both spouse will be most comfortable with and most likely to use and trust. For us- my husband’ work schedule changes all the time, and we almost always have a baby in our bed (all our children under 2 sleep in bed with us)-- and so it wasn’t realistic for me to take a daily temp. Also- I have very clear fertility signals that I really trust (after a bunch of natural births and extended breastfeeding- I feel that I have acquired agreater trust in the workings of my body)-- and not all women feel that way- or have medical reasons not to (such as thyroid issues)

Anyway, sorry for the divergence!! Just meant as an aside!

Here’s a link to info about Billings Method :boma-usa.com/

 

[Tim_Hayes]

Let me put this scenario to you becasue it is the principal reason I brought up the subject int he first place.

Lets use this eg. Muscular dystrophy, fatal disease that usually results in early teen death at best, with loss of use of motor muslce function and all that it entails, meaning life is and can be extremely harrowing for those sufering children, secondly, only males actaully suffer the effects of the disease with females being the carriers and not suffering.

1. Are all woman who are carriers of this disease called to be celibate. ( I will also include all sorts of other deadly genetic diseases in this as well)
2. The answer to the first question is NO.
3. If they are not called to be celibate, then what is the option, any method of birth control that is not 100% cannot be practiced.
   For anyone to say practice NFP and leave God in control must respond to the following , if a male child is born who suffers the disease then you must admit that God willed such a thing to occur, how many of you are willing to say that God deliberately willed it.
4. Are we to deny these woman the sacrement of marriage, for that to be the case we have to say they are all called to be celibate, which we know is not the case.

Therefor, if I as a man get a vasectomy or any other properly done measure that makes conception 100% impossible for the purpose of being in the marital relationship with my wife then am I lost (salvation wise). Here will say the same thing for the woman if she chooses a method that prevents pregnancy 100%

Remember the Church doesn’t allow male and female religous to reside under the the same roof because of potential for sin.

The above is the problem with the Churches birth control methods, the strict line is no contraception per se. but in the above scenario, how kindly will God look upon me for deliberately causing the conception of such diseased and suffering people when I knew the results and probability of such occuring.

 

[SCSD094]

WOW! Great opinions on this thread. I must say there are somethings borught up that I have never heard or thought of. A little ? for those using NFP perhaps you could offer some advice. My wife and I use currently use NFP, and have for about the last three years.

The big problem that I have is during the fertile times there is a STRONG desire for sex (there are times when we can’t really even “cuddle” for fear it will go to far.) Then on the opposite side, at the tail end of our infertile times we almost feel that we have to have sex even though we might not really want to because it might be 10 days or so before we are able to again.

So although we are comitted to NFP it hasn’t been the life changing experience that everyone talks about, any thoughts or recomendations would be welcome.

 

[JoaoMachado]

SCSD094:

WOW! Great opinions on this thread. I must say there are somethings borught up that I have never heard or thought of. A little ? for those using NFP perhaps you could offer some advice. My wife and I use currently use NFP, and have for about the last three years.

The big problem that I have is during the fertile times there is a STRONG desire for sex (there are times when we can’t really even “cuddle” for fear it will go to far.) Then on the opposite side, at the tail end of our infertile times we almost feel that we have to have sex even though we might not really want to because it might be 10 days or so before we are able to again.

So although we are comitted to NFP it hasn’t been the life changing experience that everyone talks about, any thoughts or recomendations would be welcome.

I recommend “Pregnancy” you get about 8 months of “when ever honey” it is a good fringe benefit.

Also, human nature is to want what you can’t have.

Joao

 

[Praise_Singer]

Bea'(name removed by moderator):

I’ll name a few reasons that come to mind why people don’t use NFP…

1. They can’t have sex whenever they want
2. They feel it’s too much “work”
3. They don’t realize or believe ABC is against the Church

1. As a woman goes into peri-menopause, the cervical fluid can change in consistency and duration. You may have to assume you’re fertile for up to 60% of your cycle. (More, if you’re having a short ie,18 day cycle)

 

[Dr_Paul]

Tim,

Your question about the issue of allowing children to be born when you know that they have a high likelihood for a birth defect is very insightful and really pushes the teaching of the Church to a limit. A similar question could be posed when the woman has a medical condition in which a pregnancy would pose a significant risk to the mother (including death). I think it is a good place to explore, because I think that it helps to bring into focus exacltly why the Church teaches what it does.

To respond to the issues you raise, I would first consider why God allows (or wills) any suffering in this world. Theologeans have discussed this for centuries. I believe that He does because it is beneficial to us. Yes, having such a child can be extremely harrowing (mentally and physically). Yet if you accept that ALL children are a gift from God, then it DOES follow that if a couple using NFP to avoid pregnancy due to the issue of potential genetic defect conceives, it IS in God’s will. The Church would agree that avoiding pregnancy in this situation is justified. However, it would not be wrong for a couple to be married and have conjugal relations while adhering to the practice of NFP. Again, the mentality is either we are trying to be God with the belief that we know better than He does, or we let God be God. We are all imperfect in some way. Children with birth defects can be and indeed are very special blessings.
I have heard from many parents who have a child with Down syndrome, muscular dystrophy, or many other profound birth defects. The love that they have for their children is no different than for healthy children. Often, they help the parents to love more openly and selflessly. I do not mean that there are not significant challenges. All suffering, when given to God has tremendous benefits for us in our spiritual journey.

 

[rfk]

Dr Paul:

Your question about the issue of allowing children to be born when you know that they have a high likelihood for a birth defect is very insightful and really pushes the teaching of the Church to a limit.

That is the situation in our family. My wife is required to take certain prescriptions that all but guarantee serious birth defects. We still faithfully use NFP.
Tim Hayes:

For anyone to say practice NFP and leave God in control must respond to the following , if a male child is born who suffers the disease then you must admit that God willed such a thing to occur, how many of you are willing to say that God deliberately willed it.

Well, God views every soul as a true blessing, with the inherent dignity and worth that is part of every human life. Take for example, a still-born baby. Yes, his life was short, but compared to eternity every life is short.

You mentioned, “how many of you are willing to say that God deliberately willed it”, it almost sounds as if you are saying God was willing something evil to happen. Remember, one of the basic tenets of our Faith is that God never wills evil or creates evil.
Tim Hayes:

if I as a man get a vasectomy or any other properly done measure that makes conception 100% impossible for the purpose of being in the marital relationship with my wife then am I lost (salvation wise).

It is not up to me to say that you are “lost”. But it is the clear, firm, unambiguous, and infallible teaching of the Church that you are in a state of mortal sin (assuming that you had full knowledge and will).

Fortunately, the Church has also been given the sacrament of reconciliation by Christ. Obviously, however, for it to be a valid confession it requires the firm amendment to change behavior.