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_Christopher
Guest
That makes sense, thanks.
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Lance_O
Guest
Praise Singer said:
It’s true that during different reproductive stages/categories (perimenopause, breastfeeding, if someone is post-pill, etc) changes in the cycle of fertility, that is the mucus cycle, will often be seen. However, no woman would ever, in acuality, be fertile for 60% of her cycle. Even if, for whatever reason, she sees mucus each and every day, only some of those days are fertile in reality. Any woman/couple in this situation should consult with their nfp practitioner to get assistance in identifying the true days of fertility and properly manage their chart.
FYI: this is Lance’s wife and we are users and I am a trained FertiltyCare Practitioner in the Creighton Model. www.popepaulvi.com and www.fertilitycare.org
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Chris_W
Guest
I ask the following questions,
The gravity of this sin, and the importance of the Church’s teaching on this matter, is that our actions demonstrate our true answer to these questions. It forces us to look at the sincerity of our trust in God. I picture God saying “Do you trust me?..Only I can create life…and I want what is best for you…and I don’t make mistakes…what are you afraid of?”
You say you trust God, yet you still feel an overwhelming need to use conraception. Why? Do you have wisdom beyond the wisdom of God? Or do you think God will make a mistake? Or do you believe God doesn’t really have your best interest at heart (is He not all Good)?
The response I usually get to this dialogue is a troubled silence.
This does not speak to those with medical dilemmas. I recommend seeking the guidance of a spiritual director in these cases. But for the majority of us, this issue brings our faith into the light of day, where it can be seen for what it is. Pray for faith.
- “Do you believe God is the source of all life?”
- “Do you believe God loves you an wants/knows what is best for you?”
- “Do you believe God is perfect and therefore cannot make a mistake?”
The answer is usually “yes” without even having to ponder it.
The gravity of this sin, and the importance of the Church’s teaching on this matter, is that our actions demonstrate our true answer to these questions. It forces us to look at the sincerity of our trust in God. I picture God saying “Do you trust me?..Only I can create life…and I want what is best for you…and I don’t make mistakes…what are you afraid of?”
You say you trust God, yet you still feel an overwhelming need to use conraception. Why? Do you have wisdom beyond the wisdom of God? Or do you think God will make a mistake? Or do you believe God doesn’t really have your best interest at heart (is He not all Good)?
The response I usually get to this dialogue is a troubled silence.
This does not speak to those with medical dilemmas. I recommend seeking the guidance of a spiritual director in these cases. But for the majority of us, this issue brings our faith into the light of day, where it can be seen for what it is. Pray for faith.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Chris W:
Here are two questions for you:
Chris,
Here are two questions for you:
- Do you believe that it is possible to sin, by placing your own will ahead of God’s, and have fewer children than God’s will intended you to have had you not sinned?
- Do you believe that it is possible to sin, by placing your own will ahead of God’s, and have more children than God’s will intended you to have had you not sinned?
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Praise_Singer
Guest
Lance O:
While I know I am not actually fertile 60% of my cycle, the signs are sometimes ambiguous enough to not want to risk pregnancy. While normally, that is only up to 10-14 days, when I have an unusually short cycle and abnormal-for-me mucus it certainly SEEMS like 60% :crying:
K
kmktexas
Guest
Tim Hayes:
I know it sounds harsh, but aside from the whole contraception issue, if a couple intends NEVER to have children, it is my understanding (please correct me if I am mistaken) that they are not allowed to be married sacramentally. In fact, this intent is often the grounds on which a decree of nullity may be granted. I am not speaking of infertility but rather intent.
M
markp
Guest
I’ve been married for over 20 years and wish I had the problems SCSD094 talks about now. I wish I knew about NFP and understood why it is God’s prefered way for family planning back then. It’s not for everyone, but it is the ideal.
There’s a major point for NFP, that hasn’t been stressed nearly enough in this thead. NFP, by its design, requires discipline. This discipline is required to keep love strong and a couple happily married. Having sex whenever you want is a recipe for disaster. All other forms of birth control removes the necessary discipline needed in a marriage. Having sex whenever we want removes the excitement and anticipation of sex. Inconvenient as it is, it is the right thing to do.
The longer woman are married the more they complain about them feeling like a recreational vehicle. A man’s play toy. With NFP, men are more aware of what’s happening to a womans body and are required to control themselves. This control should have been established by the couple long before they were married, by not having sex outside marriage. Today even that discipline is gone. When we have it whenever we want, in the end the joy of it is gone.
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Jennifer123
Guest
Hello-
I tried to post before but it got lost in the “ether” hopefully there won’t be 2 posts from me!
Anyways, I had mentioned that along with avoidance of contraception for various reasons, NFP helps us to not take each other for granted and use each other’s sexuality for selfish reasons.
We are supposed to join as one flesh in the marriage convenant, which is impossible if you withhold your fertility from your partner. Now there are exceptions, but it is definately more likely that the marriage act will be used for selfish gratification if you are using contraception.
At least with NFP, conception may still be avoided but you are still allowing God to create life, your intention is for the greater glory of Our Lord rather than the selfish pleasure of sterile sex. You are still allowing for God’s wisdom rather than your own limited human understanding.
Sadly, most of society’s ills today are directly related to most denominations caving to societal pressure in allowing contraception. Abortion, pornography, homosexuality, AIDS, radical feminism, so much more etc. are all a result of the contraceptive mentality, which allows for selfish gratification without any consequence. It really does all spiral from contraception.
I think Humane Vitae (which I haven’t read) outlines this, I think the story is that it was written as a response to a vision Pope Paul VI had about what the pill would do to society. One only has to turn on the TV, read ANY magazine, to see that our notion of human sexuality, human gender, is all messed up.
I hope you all can understand, I don’t think I’m very eloquent and I’m sure there are others out there who know what I’m saying a can refine my thoughts a bit. Another good resource I think is Living His Life Abundantly, lhla.org/.
Anyways, I trust the Church after all whose authority should I trust, mine, my pastor’s, or the Vicar of Christ? Jesus wouldn’t leave us only to flounder, he gave us a way to know His intentions - the magisterium!!
Okay, God bless!!!
I tried to post before but it got lost in the “ether” hopefully there won’t be 2 posts from me!
Anyways, I had mentioned that along with avoidance of contraception for various reasons, NFP helps us to not take each other for granted and use each other’s sexuality for selfish reasons.
We are supposed to join as one flesh in the marriage convenant, which is impossible if you withhold your fertility from your partner. Now there are exceptions, but it is definately more likely that the marriage act will be used for selfish gratification if you are using contraception.
At least with NFP, conception may still be avoided but you are still allowing God to create life, your intention is for the greater glory of Our Lord rather than the selfish pleasure of sterile sex. You are still allowing for God’s wisdom rather than your own limited human understanding.
Sadly, most of society’s ills today are directly related to most denominations caving to societal pressure in allowing contraception. Abortion, pornography, homosexuality, AIDS, radical feminism, so much more etc. are all a result of the contraceptive mentality, which allows for selfish gratification without any consequence. It really does all spiral from contraception.
I think Humane Vitae (which I haven’t read) outlines this, I think the story is that it was written as a response to a vision Pope Paul VI had about what the pill would do to society. One only has to turn on the TV, read ANY magazine, to see that our notion of human sexuality, human gender, is all messed up.
I hope you all can understand, I don’t think I’m very eloquent and I’m sure there are others out there who know what I’m saying a can refine my thoughts a bit. Another good resource I think is Living His Life Abundantly, lhla.org/.
Anyways, I trust the Church after all whose authority should I trust, mine, my pastor’s, or the Vicar of Christ? Jesus wouldn’t leave us only to flounder, he gave us a way to know His intentions - the magisterium!!
Okay, God bless!!!
L
Lil_Flower_Love
Guest
crimson dragon:
The ultimate purpose of marriage is not companionship. As Pope Pius XI put it in his encyclical “Casti Connubii” (vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html), the primary end of marriage is “the begetting and education of children”. This is such an integral part of marriage that Catholic weddings include this in the vows (“Do you promise to accept children lovingly from God?”). It is therefore a negation of the marriage vows to decide to never have children. If a couple happens to be naturally infertile, they are not under obligation to try everything under the sun to conceive (the vow is “accept children”, not pursue them). However, if a couple is of normal fertility and purposefully avoids ever conceiving, they are absolutely refusing to accept children and it is a violation of their marriage vows.
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maxk
Guest
My wife and I have lived both the contraceptive and NFP/Billings lifestyle. I will try to explain the difference the switch to NFP has changed our marriage and, specifically, my view of my wife.
When we used ABC (artificial birth control), we could have relations anytime we wanted without consequences. IOW, we used the unitive aspect and denied the procreative aspect of the marriage act. In doing this, I used my wife for pleasure, but did not think about the enormity of the action. Even though a possibility for pregnancy existed with ABC, my mind was totally closed to the idea, and sex then became exclusively a pursuit of pleasure.
We reluctantly started using NFP as we drew closer to the Church. (BTW, we already had 4 kids; now we have 5). With that change, my mentality changed. Now, with every sexual action, I realize that a pregnancy could result. This realization occurs even during infertile times when we are much less likely to conceive than using ABC during a fertile time. As a result, I now understand that each marital action may result in a child that will need a father for the next 20 years. In effect, with each sexual encounter, I am binding myself to my wife; we are renewing our promise to be with eachother until death seperates us. In turn, I recognize that my wife is not just giving herself to me for one evening.
The irony is that we are usually less likely to conceive now with NFP than we were when we used some forms of ABC, but we no longer can deny the reality of what we are doing.
The bottom line is that when we tried to deny the procreative aspect, we distorted and diminished the unitive aspect as well. Now that we accept the full fertility of each action (which might be close to zero), we have reclaimed the fullness of the unitive aspect also.
There are more benefits that we have seen also. Self-denial, demonstrating love by being willing to wait, etc are all very real benefits also, but the above example is one of the more tangible ways my brain can grasp how our marriage has been enhanced by this seemingly simple change.
When we used ABC (artificial birth control), we could have relations anytime we wanted without consequences. IOW, we used the unitive aspect and denied the procreative aspect of the marriage act. In doing this, I used my wife for pleasure, but did not think about the enormity of the action. Even though a possibility for pregnancy existed with ABC, my mind was totally closed to the idea, and sex then became exclusively a pursuit of pleasure.
We reluctantly started using NFP as we drew closer to the Church. (BTW, we already had 4 kids; now we have 5). With that change, my mentality changed. Now, with every sexual action, I realize that a pregnancy could result. This realization occurs even during infertile times when we are much less likely to conceive than using ABC during a fertile time. As a result, I now understand that each marital action may result in a child that will need a father for the next 20 years. In effect, with each sexual encounter, I am binding myself to my wife; we are renewing our promise to be with eachother until death seperates us. In turn, I recognize that my wife is not just giving herself to me for one evening.
The irony is that we are usually less likely to conceive now with NFP than we were when we used some forms of ABC, but we no longer can deny the reality of what we are doing.
The bottom line is that when we tried to deny the procreative aspect, we distorted and diminished the unitive aspect as well. Now that we accept the full fertility of each action (which might be close to zero), we have reclaimed the fullness of the unitive aspect also.
There are more benefits that we have seen also. Self-denial, demonstrating love by being willing to wait, etc are all very real benefits also, but the above example is one of the more tangible ways my brain can grasp how our marriage has been enhanced by this seemingly simple change.
C
Chris_W
Guest
Catholic2003 wrote:
Chris,
Here are two questions for you:
Can we sin by having too few children (Question 4)? Yes, but it is not the quantity of children that would consititute a sin. Rather, it is whether or not the married couple opens their marriage to the will of God. The Church does permit NFP, which is merely selective abstinance, for various reasons. Can this be taken too far, thus closing the marriage to the will of God? Yes. That would be the sin…not the actual quantity of children.
Chris,
Here are two questions for you:
- Do you believe that it is possible to sin, by placing your own will ahead of God’s, and have fewer children than God’s will intended you to have had you not sinned?
- Do you believe that it is possible to sin, by placing your own will ahead of God’s, and have more children than God’s will intended you to have had you not sinned?
Can we sin by having too few children (Question 4)? Yes, but it is not the quantity of children that would consititute a sin. Rather, it is whether or not the married couple opens their marriage to the will of God. The Church does permit NFP, which is merely selective abstinance, for various reasons. Can this be taken too far, thus closing the marriage to the will of God? Yes. That would be the sin…not the actual quantity of children.
C
Catholic2003
Guest
Chris,
Thanks for your answers. However, I believe something different than you.
I think that it is God’s will that all children be born to parents who are married to each other, so that the children can be raised as part of a family. This is why single people are called to chastity, and the sixth commandment forbids adultery.
However, because of human sin, people engage in fornication and adultery. Not infrequently, pregnancies and children result from those illicit unions. Does this mean that God is cooperating in sin, because the creation of a human life requires the participation of God? (Of course not, God cannot sin.)
Humanae Vitae says:
Instead, according to Humanae Vitae, the couple is called to use their reason and will to exert control overy their innate drives and emotions. Should they fail to do so, they sin, and it is quite possible that another pregnancy and child will result from that sin, just as it can in the cases of fornication and adultery.
God gave us free will, and with it, the ability to sin. When we choose to sin, the consequences are not what God would have willed, but what we have substituted in His place. But God does not supernaturally shield us from the consequences of those sins. As Morgan Freeman said in “Bruce Almighty”:
Thanks for your answers. However, I believe something different than you.
I think that it is God’s will that all children be born to parents who are married to each other, so that the children can be raised as part of a family. This is why single people are called to chastity, and the sixth commandment forbids adultery.
However, because of human sin, people engage in fornication and adultery. Not infrequently, pregnancies and children result from those illicit unions. Does this mean that God is cooperating in sin, because the creation of a human life requires the participation of God? (Of course not, God cannot sin.)
Humanae Vitae says:
If a couple has the physical, economic, and psychological resources to provide for 4 children, which they already have, will God supernaturally intervene to prevent sperm and egg from uniting should the couple selfishly decide to continue engaging in marital relations despite their inability to be responsible parents for 5 children at that time? I don’t believe so, as God doesn’t supernaturally intervene to prevent pregnancies in cases of fornication and adultery.
Instead, according to Humanae Vitae, the couple is called to use their reason and will to exert control overy their innate drives and emotions. Should they fail to do so, they sin, and it is quite possible that another pregnancy and child will result from that sin, just as it can in the cases of fornication and adultery.
God gave us free will, and with it, the ability to sin. When we choose to sin, the consequences are not what God would have willed, but what we have substituted in His place. But God does not supernaturally shield us from the consequences of those sins. As Morgan Freeman said in “Bruce Almighty”:
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Ham1
Guest
Okay, I am basically with you except for “Should they fail to do so, they sin…” This is completely wrong. Even if a married couple have serious reason to avoid pregnancy if they give into their desires they are not committing sin. The sexual desires of a married couple are GOOD. And giving into those desires is GOOD. Certainly, if a couple that was attempting to avoid pregnancy fails, the child is not a product of sin. Perhaps the good and well-ordered desires that caused the couple to unite and create the child were put there by God.
Please tell me you typed that section by mistake!
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Catholic2003
Guest
I’m still feeling my way through this issue, so I don’t know. Right now, I am thinking about the case where the mother drowned her five children in the bathtub. It seems to me that they really shouldn’t have “left it to God” when God gave them every possible sign that they needed to stop having children they could not responsibly take care of.
But I’m sure I will learn something new discussing this here.
M
maxk
Guest
Giving into a desire to do something which a couple has a serious reason to avoid is not a sin?
I see where you are coming from, but I think creating another soul that might not have parents capable of taking care of it just seems a little presumptuous.
I know if my wife were seriously ill and I gave in to temptation, I really think that would be sinful if it ran a risk of leaving our other kids without a mother. I think that would be a sin even if we were both ‘in the mood’.
I see where you are coming from, but I think creating another soul that might not have parents capable of taking care of it just seems a little presumptuous.
I know if my wife were seriously ill and I gave in to temptation, I really think that would be sinful if it ran a risk of leaving our other kids without a mother. I think that would be a sin even if we were both ‘in the mood’.
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Catholic2003
Guest
I kind of agree. But even if it wasn’t a sin, I don’t see any justification at all for believing that God will supernaturally shield the couple from the consequences of their actions.
In the Middle Ages, whether a person got the plague had a lot more to do with whether they were in contact with infected rats than anything else. Even today, noone argues that “God controls how long we will live, not us, so there is no point in having our children vaccinated.”
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Proud2bRC
Guest
This post is reprehensible. This is pure heresy, Humanae Vitae says no such thing! There is no positive duty, on pain of sin, for couples to use NFP! This is a complete twisting of Humanae Vitae, diametrically opposite the true meaning of it!
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perpetua
Guest
I agree completely. I posted on another thread on contraception that we are a “NFP family” but that is not completely correct. It is true that we have learned NFP, but we have not ever used it to prevent a pregnancy as we do not have a serious reason for avoiding pregnancy. I think it is a sad, sad, indicator of our society that anyone should think and compare marital union between a sacramentally bound husband and wife resulting in a child and a fornicating or adulterous relationship resulting in a child.
When I talk with people about what a great blessing NFP has been to our marriage, that is not quite correct. The first 3 yrs of marriage, we used abc, not even really knowing the Churches teachings or realizing the fact that abc’s often act as abortificaients. That is something that we have repented of, confessed, and frankly grieved over, as we will never know in this life how many of our own precious babies we might have killed out of selfishness (we had to buy a house and a new car and things before we felt we were ready to have children). Anyway, learning NFP after the birth of our first child, and especially listening to Dr. Janet Smith’s Contraception Why Not has completely changed our marriage. It is hard to describe the joy of living in accordance with God’s will. A friend of mine (using abc) once said, “NFP, they made us learn that at precana, but the lady talking about it had 8 kids, so it obviously doesn’t work.” It’s not that it doesn’t work, it’s that the people who practice it find that their values change, and they want, yes, WANT more children.
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familyisit
Guest
Abstinence can take patience, prayer, and understanding - condoms do not. By the first we offer up if it really is an important reason because we love God, and we receive grace which ultimately helps us and our family get to heaven. Condoms, no grace-----and if you have teenagers who happen to see them in your night stand it is real hard to tell them to wait for marriage when mom and dad can’t even wait a few days
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hasikelee
Guest
Why, the difference between periodic abstinence and condoms is the same difference as proper fasting and taking a diet pill.
One recognizes the inherent dignity of the body and seeks to work with the cycles of the body to ensure health. The other seeks to stop the body’s natural actions so as to gain pleasure.
By its very nature, a condom can only be used at the very point of sexual intercourse. It therefore frustrates the natural act and attempts to oppress the human body.
Fertility monitoring does not frustrate the natural act, but calls for discipline and intelligence to act with the body.
I should just make this my signature:
What’s the difference between killing Grandma now to get your inheritance and waaaaaiting until Grandma dies? Both are effective, right?
One recognizes the inherent dignity of the body and seeks to work with the cycles of the body to ensure health. The other seeks to stop the body’s natural actions so as to gain pleasure.
By its very nature, a condom can only be used at the very point of sexual intercourse. It therefore frustrates the natural act and attempts to oppress the human body.
Fertility monitoring does not frustrate the natural act, but calls for discipline and intelligence to act with the body.
I should just make this my signature:
What’s the difference between killing Grandma now to get your inheritance and waaaaaiting until Grandma dies? Both are effective, right?
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