Wicca-the fastest growing religion in Canada!!

[wolpertinger]

The Barrister:

I said “anti-Christian.” Not “anti-Catholic.” Diatribes are *much *better when they get the underlying premise right.

And you don’t have to “say” something “anti-Christian” to **be **anti-Christian. A false religion **is **anti-Christian.

Out of curiosity, is this your personal opinion or the official position of the Catholic faith? I’m not a Christian and for that very reason, this question is of some significance to me.

This is a Christian Catholic website that exists to respond to questions regarding the Catholic faith. It is not for the promotion of witchcraft.

May I then suggest that you ask the site owners to close the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum or at the very least rename it to “Non-Catholic Christian Religions” to disambiguate? At face value, it seems impossible to discuss any non-Catholic religion without at least indirectly promoting an opposing point of view.

I would appreciate if one of the moderators could drop in to clarify the limits of discourse in this forum.

 

[Jdg164]

Info for Catholics attempting to understand Wicca.
This article, “The Witches Next Door” ought to help.
crisismagazine.com/june2002/feature4.htm

 

[Lance]

The fastest growing religion would be one that had only one member today and had 2 members tomorrow. That would be 100% growth in one day. If Wicca grew by 5,000 and Christianity grew by 500,000, Wicca would still be growing faster because there are so few of them compared to the major religions of the world.

 

[wolpertinger]

Lance:

The fastest growing religion would be one that had only one member today and had 2 members tomorrow. That would be 100% growth in one day. If Wicca grew by 5,000 and Christianity grew by 500,000, Wicca would still be growing faster because there are so few of them compared to the major religions of the world.

What about a religion with no member today and one tomorrow?

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

What about a religion with no member today and one tomorrow?

The fun of using growth rates.

To infinity and beyond!!!1

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

The Barrister:

And you don’t have to “say” something “anti-Christian” to **be ** anti-Christian. A false religion **is ** anti-Christian.

Therein lies the peril of exclusivist religion. You understand now why, even if America had never coveted the Middle Eastern oil fields or supported Israel, the 9/11 attacks would still have happened? Because they consider all non-Muslim religions to be anti-Islamic.

I don’t consider Christianity to be anti-pagan, and I don’t consider myself to be anti-Christian. If you think I’m anti-Christian nonetheless, not by my actions or sayings but ipso facto that I’m a non-Christian, then you subscribe to a worldview called dualism, which is what fundamentalist Muslims hold to too.

Do you really want to belong to that club?

 

[wolpertinger]

squirt:

The fun of using growth rates.

To infinity and beyond!!!1

I could never resist a math joke.
Heathen Dawn:

Therein lies the peril of exclusivist religion. You understand now why, even if America had never coveted the Middle Eastern oil fields or supported Israel, the 9/11 attacks would still have happened? Because they consider all non-Muslim religions to be anti-Islamic.

Just a nitpick… There is an immense potential for violence when two exclusivist religions are in contact, but no certainty. Then again, it is debatable whether the relationship prior to 9/11 should be considered peaceful.

 

[pnewton]

Heathen Dawn:

I don’t consider Christianity to be anti-pagan, and I don’t consider myself to be anti-Christian.

You surely have the right to define yourself, but I assure you that the church is against paganism in the same way that we are against lying, stealing, adultery, etc. It’s even part of the original Top Ten List.

Not that we hate those who are pagans, but we do believe in an objective reality of God and His truth.

If I were to drive off the road and into a tree that I failed to see, my lack of belief in the reality of this tree would not prevent the wreck. We strive to understand the objective truth as revealed by the only source of objectivity, God Himself.

We all should strive our whole lives to understand the truth as God has revealed it, not as we want it. In this way we do not judge our neighbor, but trust in the mercy and wisdom of God to work in each individual life in His own time.

 

[The_Barrister]

Heathen Dawn:

Therein lies the peril of exclusivist religion. You understand now why, even if America had never coveted the Middle Eastern oil fields or supported Israel, the 9/11 attacks would still have happened? Because they consider all non-Muslim religions to be anti-Islamic.

I don’t consider Christianity to be anti-pagan, and I don’t consider myself to be anti-Christian. If you think I’m anti-Christian nonetheless, not by my actions or sayings but ipso facto that I’m a non-Christian, then you subscribe to a worldview called dualism, which is what fundamentalist Muslims hold to too.

Do you really want to belong to that club?

I don’t fall for the “fundamentalist” argument as the cut off point for what I’m allowed to believe or profess. Sorry, tolerance is not a virtue, particularly since you’re unwilling to “tolerate” my viewpoint or the Catholic viewpoint.

And Christianity IS anti-pagan. Let’s not prance around the semantics of the words.

My beliefs are entirely consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Those teachings specifically condemn all practices of magic, sorcery and divination. CCC 2116-2117. Superstition is specifically condemned. CCC 2111. Polytheism is specifically condemned. CCC 2112. Idolotry and worshipping false gods or demons is condemned. CCC 2113. As CCC 2114 notes, “Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who “transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.”” Spiritism and naturism are also condemned. CCC 2117.

Witchcraft is anti-thetical to a life as a faithful Catholic. You are playing with powers that do not come from God, and are therefore opposed to God. Your actions - no matter how innocuous you think they are - bring evil into the world. Witchcraft is condemned in the Bible, and has been condemned by many Catholics before me.

By the way, it was the Satanist Aleister Crowley who penned the Wicca creed, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” Encyclopedia of American Religions, p. 141. Say what you will, you can’t deny the Satanic influence that formed and continues to inspire Wicca.

Like They Might Be Giants once said, “You can’t shake the devil’s hand and say you’re only kidding.” (How’s that for a seque?)

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

wolpertinger:

Then again, it is debatable whether the relationship prior to 9/11 should be considered peaceful.

It never has been. The Muslims were stopped in Southern France in the 8th century and at the gates of the Austrian capital in 1529 and 1638.

pnewton:

but I assure you that the church is against paganism in the same way that we are against lying, stealing, adultery, etc. It’s even part of the original Top Ten List.

And here is yet another peril: the conflation of faith with morality. You should know one’s faith, or lack thereof, says nothing about one’s moral status. Paganism cannot be equated to lying, stealing and adultery. There isn’t even a correlation between the two.

And it brings me to the comparison with the Muslims again: the Muslims (fundamentalists anyway, which is most of them) consider Christians to be immoral not because of any immoral actions the Christians have performed, but because it is ingrained in the Islamic worldview that there can be no morality outside of the Islamic faith. Any non-Muslim is automatically immoral. Just as you think of pagans. “He who is not with me is against me.” Dualism.

You Abrahamic monotheists have no idea how much strife you’re causing with those attitudes. I know what I’m talking about, since I live in Israel, the epicentre of all Abrahamic-religion-induced shockwaves.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

The Barrister:

Sorry, tolerance is not a virtue,

Not a virtue? Then the 9/11 terrorists were virtuous individuals? They did not think tolerance is a virtue either.

particularly since you’re unwilling to “tolerate” my viewpoint or the Catholic viewpoint.

I’m not willing to tolerate bigotry. That’s a double negative that makes a positive.

And Christianity IS anti-pagan. Let’s not prance around the semantics of the words.

It doesn’t have to be, but I believe you as far as your Christianity is concerned.

My beliefs are entirely consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Those teachings specifically condemn all practices of magic, sorcery and divination. CCC 2116-2117. Superstition is specifically condemned. CCC 2111. Polytheism is specifically condemned. CCC 2112. Idolotry and worshipping false gods or demons is condemned. CCC 2113. As CCC 2114 notes, “Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who “transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.”” Spiritism and naturism are also condemned. CCC 2117.

OK, you’ve just proved your religion requires you to hate people without knowing them at all.

Witchcraft is anti-thetical to a life as a faithful Catholic. You are playing with powers that do not come from God, and are therefore opposed to God.

They are from God. There is nothing that is not from God. Since God is infinite, there cannot be a state of no-God anywhere. And as for the Dark Side or Satan, I don’t believe in all that dualistic scheme.

Your actions - no matter how innocuous you think they are - bring evil into the world.

They don’t. I rather think having more children than the world can support brings evil to the world.

By the way, it was the Satanist Aleister Crowley

He was not a Satanist, though he liked to call himself “The Beast 666” for shock value. He was an occultist.

who penned the Wicca creed, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.”

That’s not the Wiccan creed or Wiccan Rede. The Wiccan Rede says, “an it harms none, do what ye will.” Close but not exact. The Crowley quote is called the Law of Thelema.

Say what you will, you can’t deny the Satanic influence that formed and continues to inspire Wicca.

There can be no Satanic influence if there is no Satan. There is no Satan. If you want me to believe in that stuff, bring me evidence that he exists. And by evidence I don’t mean Bible quotes.

 

[wolpertinger]

Heathen Dawn:

It never has been. The Muslims were stopped in Southern France in the 8th century and at the gates of the Austrian capital in 1529 and 1638.

I keep forgetting about that bit of historical unpleasantness. The crusades have not been conducive to cordial relations, either.

However, I was thinking of contemporary history, but perhaps that’s a rhethoric question.

 

[pnewton]

Heathen Dawn:

Paganism cannot be equated to lying, stealing and adultery. There isn’t even a correlation between the two.

I did not make the initial correlation. That was God himself, when He wrote with His own hand on Mt. Sinai, “Thou shall have no other gods before me.” Then he went on to the lying, stealing and cheating part.

If you do not believe in the Bible, you at least have to date this correlation back to Moses.

 

[The_Barrister]

Heathen Dawn:

Not a virtue? Then the 9/11 terrorists were virtuous individuals? They did not think tolerance is a virtue either.

You need to learn your logic. Just because B is a subset of A does not mean all A = B.
Heathen Dawn:

I’m not willing to tolerate bigotry. That’s a double negative that makes a positive.

So your intolerance is okay, but *mine * is not? You must be a liberal.

For that matter, I’m not willing to tolerate untruths. Right back atcha.
Heathen Dawn:

It doesn’t have to be, but I believe you as far as your Christianity is concerned.

I don’t have my own version. I subscribe to the original and unchanging Christianity, every belief, not watered down.
Heathen Dawn:

OK, you’ve just proved your religion requires you to hate people without knowing them at all.

I hate no one. I don’t hate Muslims or even tyrannical Muslim terrorists. I do, however, feel sorry for and pray for those who have no knowledge of the truth, or have seen and rejected the truth. Your own background shows that you’ve been searching all over for it. Hope you find it here.
Heathen Dawn:

They are from God. There is nothing that is not from God. Since God is infinite, there cannot be a state of no-God anywhere. And as for the Dark Side or Satan, I don’t believe in all that dualistic scheme.

Sure, everything is from God. Satan cannot create - but he can twist things to his own end, and he can destroy. So let me rephrase - what you have comes from God, but it comes as twisted and distorted by Satan. Sorry for the confusion.
Heathen Dawn:

They don’t. I rather think having more children than the world can support brings evil to the world.

So, I take it that your solution is to kill them before they can become a burden? How noble of you! I shall have to nominate you for some award.
Heathen Dawn:

He was not a Satanist, though he liked to call himself “The Beast 666” for shock value. He was an occultist.

He he hehe. Let’s not twist things. I know that a whole field of apologetics has sprung up around this topic to try to explicate Crowley from Satanism. But Crowley was a Satanist. Go defend him on your Wicca boards.
Heathen Dawn:

That’s not the Wiccan creed or Wiccan Rede. The Wiccan Rede says, “an it harms none, do what ye will.” Close but not exact. The Crowley quote is called the Law of Thelema.

A difference without distinction.
Heathen Dawn:

There can be no Satanic influence if there is no Satan. There is no Satan. If you want me to believe in that stuff, bring me evidence that he exists. And by evidence I don’t mean Bible quotes.

Since when do you get to define the proofs I choose to rely upon?

Anyway, other than the Bible and actual manifestations recorded throughout human history, Satan once left me a message on my voice mail telling me the truth about Wiccans and his involvement in the sect, but I accidentally erased it. Sorry, it would have been perfect.

 

[The_Barrister]

wolpertinger:

I keep forgetting about that bit of historical unpleasantness. The crusades have not been conducive to cordial relations, either.

However, I was thinking of contemporary history, but perhaps that’s a rhethoric question.

Don’t forget about the Inquisitions! No one expects them. http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/y/dylan717/exitnow.gif

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

The Barrister:

So your intolerance is okay, but *mine * is not? You must be a liberal.

I’m intolerating a really bad thing, while you’re intolerating a thing you have no proof is bad.

For that matter, I’m not willing to tolerate untruths. Right back atcha.

Neither am I willing to tolerate untruths, but I don’t equate those who are captive to untruths with immoral people.

I don’t have my own version. I subscribe to the original and unchanging Christianity, every belief, not watered down.

So this is an admission Christianity is an intolerant religion? Thank you. I tried to hold back that conviction, but now I have it straight from the source, I cannot any longer.

So, I take it that your solution is to kill them before they can become a burden? How noble of you! I shall have to nominate you for some award.

I did not advocate abortion. I advocated not getting into many pregnancies in the first place. Family planning, contraception and all those things your Pope forbids you to do.

He he hehe. Let’s not twist things. I know that a whole field of apologetics has sprung up around this topic to try to explicate Crowley from Satanism. But Crowley was a Satanist. Go defend him on your Wicca boards.

Anton Szandor LaVey was a Satanist. He founded the religion of Satanism. Crowley never enrolled the ranks of that religion. As I said, he took grandiose Satanic titles for the shock value.

BTW Satanism and Devil Worship are not the same. The former is an atheistic religion focussing on self-worship, while the latter is real worship of Satan and blaspheming of Christian practices.

Since when do you get to define the proofs I choose to rely upon?

Just saying that Bible quotes won’t do the job of making me believe Satan exists.

 

[wolpertinger]

The Barrister:

Don’t forget about the Inquisitions! No one expects them.

Levity aside, after reading your previous posts I wish I could say with confidence that the Inquisitions are a thing of the past.

For the first time in my life, I’m tempted to ask a Catholic priest for advice on spiritual matters – to ascertain whether or not your words accurately reflect the substance of the Catholic faith. It is the impression of a thinly veiled threat that concerns me.

 

[squirt]

wolpertinger:

Levity aside, after reading your previous posts I wish I could say with confidence that the Inquisitions are a thing of the past.

For the first time in my life, I’m tempted to ask a Catholic priest for advice on spiritual matters – to ascertain whether or not your words accurately reflect the substance of the Catholic faith. It is the impression of a thinly veiled threat that concerns me.

If you have the time, you might find an RCIA class interesting. It would give you a good overview of Christianity from a Catholic perspective. You don’t have to be considering conversion to attend.

 

[renee1258]

I’ve dealt with insincere and sincere Wiccans, not all insincere Wiccans are teenagers though some are grown women. Insincere usually have evil or selfisn intentions. I’ve had someone threaten to burn a black candle on me… But I’ve also encountered very sincere people, who happen not to believe in a monotheic belief system.

 

[The_Barrister]

Heathen Dawn:

I’m intolerating a really bad thing, while you’re intolerating a thing you have no proof is bad.

No, I’m intolerating a really bad thing, of which I have proof is a bad thing. Again, you try to acuse me of bigotry because I refuse to accept that Wicca is a good thing. Sorry, I’m not going to do that. Witchcraft, no matter how innocuous, no matter what your intentions, is evil. Notice I said “witchcraft,” not those who profess a belief in it.
Heathen Dawn:

Neither am I willing to tolerate untruths, but I don’t equate those who are captive to untruths with immoral people.

So you admit that you are captive to untruths but not immoral? Well, I never said you were immoral, so I’ll accept your explanation.
Heathen Dawn:

So this is an admission Christianity is an intolerant religion? Thank you. I tried to hold back that conviction, but now I have it straight from the source, I cannot any longer.

Again with the intolerance bull. As stated, tolerance is not a virtue, so it does not necessarily follow that intolerance is a lack of virtue. By “tolerance” you mean that you expect others to accept your viewpoint, or else they’re bigots. Point your finger at me, and you have three of your own fingers pointing right back at you. Christianity does not accept any of the beliefs you’re plying here. Remember, I didn’t come looking for you to express my unacceptance of your beliefs. If you want acceptance, well, you’ve come to the wrong place.
Heathen Dawn:

I did not advocate abortion. I advocated not getting into many pregnancies in the first place. Family planning, contraception and all those things your Pope forbids you to do.

Don’t be coy. Are you or are you not “pro-choice”?

And nice attempted slam at the Pope. The Pope does not “forbid” me - God’s laws forbid me from advocating for killing the innocent. The Pope just helps us recognize that law. It’s too bad that others don’t have recourse to such an excellent teaching source.
Heathen Dawn:

Anton Szandor LaVey was a Satanist. He founded the religion of Satanism. Crowley never enrolled the ranks of that religion. As I said, he took grandiose Satanic titles for the shock value.

BTW Satanism and Devil Worship are not the same. The former is an atheistic religion focussing on self-worship, while the latter is real worship of Satan and blaspheming of Christian practices.

Please frorgive me. I did not know that worshipping Satan required that an official “religion” be established. I thought it could be done by doing those things that Satan loves to see, like praying to false gods, doing magick and sorcery, and so on. I stand corrected, sir!
Heathen Dawn:

Just saying that Bible quotes won’t do the job of making me believe Satan exists.

There’s just no convincing you, is there? My hat’s off to someone like you who can be so strong in their convictions!