Wiccans and apologetics?

[kjvail]

Mfaustina1:

Would I be wrong to suggest that many people turn to Wicca because of what they see as gross hypocrasy among many who claim the title “Christian”? I would like to hear from the Wiccans what was it about Wicca that appealed to you?
What was it about Christianity that turned you off?
Thanks for your time - Mfaustina1

I can speak as a Wiccan that became Catholic not the other way around.

Wicca is ritualistic, so is Catholicism. Humans have a need for ritual to connect to the divine.

Some Wicca, I’m glad to see Heather does not hold this misconception, gives you a connection to the past. The belief that you are following a centuries old belief system. Catholicism has this as well of course. This was huge for me, once I understood the truth about the origins of Wicca it held very little attraction for me.

Certainly a deep-rooted cynicism of those that call themselves Christians or any organized religion, then exploit others, fed by the media, plays a role.

Also I think there is an attraction of being part of a ‘persecuted group’, sounds odd but it’s there for some people.

I consider my time as a Wiccan part of my spiritual journey. I had to go there to get here so to speak. I have gone from being an athiest to a soon-to-be-baptized Catholic and I wouldn’t have come this far otherwise.

The key difference, I think, between Wicca and Catholicism, as with Catholicism and Protestant faiths, is authority (Wicca has none) and the concept of an absolute, objective truth.

True, the Wiccan credo “an harm none, do as thou wilt”. Pretty relativistic.

So my question becomes: isn’t Wicca is a self-styled faith, where each Wiccan might choose their own gods and fashion their rituals to their own desires? Each Wicca fashions their own faith to their own comfort level. Are they not, then, worshipping themselves and working on their own power?

True, this is the second serious error of Wicca. This is also part of the attraction in our egalitarian mindset. It’s a natural offshoot of protestanism. Wicca denies any concept of original sin or the need for grace. It believes in the perfectibility of man.

The third, as I said in my earlier post is they worship the creation not the creator.

The final nail in the coffin, so to speak, for me and Wicca was its politicialization as part of the radical environmentalist movement. Every Wiccan I encountered was this far left-wing environmentalist and socialist/communist. I could not accept that world view. I was completely out of place. I came to believe in the error of moral relativism and as I said I finally came to understand this religion was about 50 years old, not 5000.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Mfaustina1:

I would like to hear from the Wiccans what was it about Wicca that appealed to you?

For me, it was the appeal of being in both worlds—on the one hand, Wicca is very life-affirming and nature-revering, like some forms of atheism, and on the other hand, it’s a supernaturalist religion, a theistic religion, like Christianity, complete with personal deities and an afterlife. I needed both of those aspects.

What was it about Christianity that turned you off?

I’ve never tried Christianity; the closest to it I tried in the past was Orthodox Judaism, and it’s off-topic to elaborate why it turned me off. The chief reason why I haven’t tried Christianity is hell—the idea that otherwise innocent people go to eternal torment just for holding the wrong belief. You may argue I have a Protestant strawman in mind, but that’s the only version I know well. Another thing is Christianity tends to devalue earthly life and to construe all the beauty of nature as merely the prowess of God. And another thing is the status of women in Christianity isn’t something to write home about (I’m not a woman but it bothers me still). The last two reasons are common to all Abrahamic religions.

Makerteacher:

Heather Dawn, thank you also for your reply, as a practicing Wiccan. Welcome to our boards.

You’re welcome.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Sparky:

A Wiccan (excuse me if I don’t get this right, I’m going on memory) tries to develop themselves, their own power, by tapping forces around them.

This is only partially true for Wicca. Wicca is a theistic religion; worship of the Gods is also important, or at least should be. It varies from coven to coven, or from individual to individual; the ratio of self-empowerment to deity-worship can fluctuate highly. I’m one of the more conservative Wiccans in this regard, since I think magic should be subordinate to deity-worship and not the other way round.

There are some systems that focus solely on tapping forces and in which the element of deity worship is totally absent. Examples are Thelema (Aleister Crowley’s system) and the Order of the Golden Dawn. Like the Harry Potter books, they’re practically atheistic.

 

[YinYangMom]

Mia Storm:

There’s a difference between objective natural and supernatural reality and subjective understandings of natural and supernatural reality. I agree with you that a person’s understanding of reality can be viewed by him to be “absolute”; but if that subjective understanding of reality is skewed, it doesn’t affect objective natural or supernatural reality.

An analogy: There was a time when men believed the earth was flat. Their understanding of natural reality was that the earth resembled a pizza. Their misunderstanding of the earth’s shape did not mean that the earth actually was shaped like a thin-crust pizza. It always remained spherical. It was men’s understanding that had to adapt to this natural reality; not the earth to man’s understanding.

In the same way there are objective supernatural realities. Man’s understanding of them does not change how they really are. It is man’s understanding that must adapt to supernatural reality; not reality to man’s understanding.

Hope this helps!

That does help, thanks.
But a Catholic man’s understanding of supernatural reality is still based on Faith.
A person of a different philosophy toward supernatural reality reaches their understanding through their own faith.
Man will not know the ‘real’ truth until we leave this plane and enter into that supernatural reality.
So I still am not comfortable denying another person’s faith in their understanding of the supernatural.

We believe the Catholic Church is the True Faith and reveals the Truth to man. You have to admit, as a practicing Catholic, that that belief does not come easily. It is something we struggle with and work toward. Of course, once we actually ‘get it’ it’s so crystal clear and we can’t imagine how anyone else can’t see it. That still doesn’t mean it really is THE absolute truth - we simple believe that it is with all our heart, all our mind, all our soul.

 

[YinYangMom]

Sparky:

Okay, what you’re describing here is “relativism” - which is actually a heresy in the Church (sorry for the h-bomb…people hate that word, but all it means is “incorrect teaching”). The Church has never taught relativism.

You confuse me…I never said the Church teaches relativism.
I actually believe the Church does speak The Truth. But that understanding from me and acceptance of it as TRUE came because of the divine gift of grace and faith.

As for the “h” word …are you saying that because I believe in allowing non-Catholics to believe in ‘their’ truths I’m a heretic?

I have faith that the Holy Spirit will prevail in all things. When a person ‘believes’ with all their heart, mind and soul that there **is **a God (even more than one, since that still shows the person acknowledges as ‘truth’ that man is not in charge) I believe that person is open to the Holy Spirit through our prayers (us Catholics who know The Truth and constantly pray that others will become enlightened to It).

By not shutting down communication with non-believers of The Faith, I believe the opportunity to evangelize is great. Slam a person for their beliefs and the opportunity for conversion is lost. Since I am secure in my beliefs I am not worried that they will sway me to their side but how can I begin to plant any seeds if I walk away?

As for:

"Everyone has their own truth and we must accept that." (Relitavistic/Modernist therefore Wiccan view)

I believe you have that slightly wrong. I don’t think it’s “we must accept that”…It’s we should ‘respect’ that. There’s a big difference.

Now, to be fair - a God’s truth may not have been revealed to a given Wiccan individual. That’s why they believe in relative truth. And so - we pray that the obective Truth may be revealed to them, that they might know it and that they may live in Christ.

On this, we agree.

 

[YinYangMom]

quote=Sparky

Well, you’re not alone there, I’ll admit. I’m not all that comfortable with evangelization either. And most Catholics aren’t. For the most part, we’re comfortable with trying to live our lives as an example. And we can reveal the Truth through that, I think. But also through casual conversation we can state what we believe and try to educate people about our faith, because most are ignorant of it. But remember - you’re not “denying” them their right to their own view. You’re doing as Christ asked - praying that we might be one in him. And by discussing your faith openly, you can at least educate people who may be against you. My own experience with Wiccans has been some good, some bad. Most have shown a great ignorance of my faith and a great hostility toward it. All I can do then is just be a good Catholic and pray for them.

–Ann
[/quote]

I hear ya

 

[Sparky]

Heathen Dawn:

The chief reason why I haven’t tried Christianity is hell—the idea that otherwise innocent people go to eternal torment just for holding the wrong belief. You may argue I have a Protestant strawman in mind, but that’s the only version I know well.

Yes, well kind of. Hell is the reward for things you DO not so much what you believe, although that is part of it.

See…while some Catholics (the ultra-traditionalists) will say there is absolutely no way someone who is not CAtholic is going to heaven, the Church actually teaches that it is possible for a non-Catholic to go to heaven. But it isn’t easy. The Church provides all the tools, all the truth, and it is the surest way.

Another thing is Christianity tends to devalue earthly life and to construe all the beauty of nature as merely the prowess of God.

Sure. Why not? He created it.Nature didn’t create itself. But if you say we don’t value human life in and of itself, you need to talk to some pro-choice group. That ain’t us. In fact, we value life much more than many wiccans I know who’d abort their child in a heartbeat because it cramps their style. Now…I’m not judging you by saying that, but that’s my experience. And it’s always bewildered me how someone who wants everything natural that they’d do something as unnatural as abort an unborn baby.

And another thing is the status of women in Christianity isn’t something to write home about (I’m not a woman but it bothers me still). The last two reasons are common to all Abrahamic religions.

As a Catholic woman, I think society devalues women. They turn them into objects of sex alone. I think Catholocism has a very balanced view of feminity. WE see that God made them female and male with strengths and weaknesses that compliment eachother. We’re supposed to work as a team, with roles that work. Because I’m a wife and mother it doesn’t mean I have less value. In fact, I have more value becasue I’m influencing the next generation. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. And our devotion to Mary as our Mother shows how a woman’s influence can change all of humanity. Admittedly, this last thing is something that Protestantism lacks, and I think that’s why some Protestant sects are so down on women.

Some accuse the church of limiting women because we don’t have women priests. On the contrary, God himself said that women shouldn’t be priests because they have other things, other important things, that must be done. When those things are not done (and trust me, most men are ill-equipped to handle them) society crumbles. Sure, being a priest is important - but those who make things happen in this church, who get things done, are the nuns, wives and mothers.

We work as a team, each doing what they do best.

Sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox now.
–Ann

 

[Ghosty]

I just want to point out that the lack of nature-loving in modern Catholicism is not based so much on Dogma and doctrine as much as the cultures that Catholicism finds itself in. American Indian Catholic Churches have a very different view than most typical American Catholics on the issue of nature, but it’s cultural and not a religious split.

I highly recommend reading St. Francis of Assisi’s works and prayers to get a better understanding of Catholic naturism and even what might be considered a kind of Catholic “animism” (not to be confused in ANY way with a worship of the spirits of creatures that is usually understood as religious animism). I, for example, absolutely believe that God’s “breath of life” exists in all things, and that this is an animating force. Humans are unique in that we possess true souls and are built in the very image of God, but this does not make other life-forms completely unrelated to us or to God. Respect of nature is respect to God’s life-giving essence, a breath that was shared not just with humans, but with all living things. It is charitable for us to love nature, and it is honoring God to do so, IMO.

 

[Sparky]

Ghost, good point on St. Francis of Assisi. Ever have your pet blessed on his feast day?
–Ann

 

[Ghosty]

Ghost, good point on St. Francis of Assisi. Ever have your pet blessed on his feast day?

You betcha! Humans definately have a very special place in God’s creation, but God has blessed all living things with His touch. I have no problem having my animal “brothers and sisters” recognized and blessed by our Church.

 

[ichabod]

Relativism: no one invents or owns the truth; immutable truth, as opposed to a value or an opinion, can only be discovered and recognized - it exists independent of anyone. While allowing others to (incorrectly) believe something you believe is untrue, it seems either:
a) You’re not sure what the truth is. Ignorance is not a sin, but to falsely plead ignorance in order to avoid defending the truth is a sin.
b) You are disinclined to correct others for whatever reason - in the name of tolerance, “getting along”, fear, laziness, whatever.

Heatherdawn said:
but that’s because truth is what works, what one experiences, not what the scientific or historical evidence says

That sounds great, but it’s basically incorrect.
We all know that our experiences are colored by other past experiences and limited by immediate perspective and flawed perceptions (case in point - optical illusions)

That something “works” is a matter of perception and can be a matter of coincidence. The scientific method tries to isolate conditions, form a hypothesis, generate a methodology to confirm or deny the hypothesis. Yet, even with physical sciences (as opposed to pure sciences, e.g., math, basic physics, and symoblic logic) these hypotheses (“beliefs”) can’t be proven definitively, only to a matter of degree.

It’s dangerous to claim to know the cause of any supernatural phenomena. For one thing, we are still ignorant of the underpinnings of nature. The body of historical evidence does support the catholic position, but there are fictions and deceivers which can discredit it.

I guess the main thrust of this rambling is that we must be careful that we don’t pridefully put too much emphasis on our own flawed personal experience and be even more careful that we don’t express our resulting conclusions as “the truth”

Faith and reason aren’t contrary to wach other.

Love to all

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

ichabod:

Heatherdawn said:
but that’s because truth is what works, what one experiences, not what the scientific or historical evidence says

That sounds great, but it’s basically incorrect.
We all know that our experiences are colored by other past experiences and limited by immediate perspective and flawed perceptions (case in point - optical illusions)

I didn’t say it was 100% correct and the only way to go. But I think it’s very useful and that it’s one of the best guards against atheism. Because:

That something “works” is a matter of perception and can be a matter of coincidence. The scientific method tries to isolate conditions, form a hypothesis, generate a methodology to confirm or deny the hypothesis. Yet, even with physical sciences (as opposed to pure sciences, e.g., math, basic physics, and symoblic logic) these hypotheses (“beliefs”) can’t be proven definitively, only to a matter of degree.

exclusive reliance on science and reason is the way to atheism. There’s a saying, “the man with an argument is at the mercy of the man with an experience.” If you have an experience of God, it stands effective against a million reasoned and scientific arguments against God to the contrary.

Reason and science have their place—but it’s a place, not the place.

 

[Lance]

Hi Dawn, I just have a few questions because I am curious. What religion were you raised in, when and why did you decide to become a wician? I have noticed that you have made several posts on this site, so you have read a lot of what is said here. Has any of it had effect on what you believe or how you perceive Catholics? Are you open to becoming a Christian? You may have answered these questions before, if so I appoligise for aking again but rather than tru to read all your posts, I am just asking again. Thanks.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Lance:

What religion were you raised in,

No religion at all. Atheist.

when and why did you decide to become a wician?

A few years ago. Because I’m attracted to both nature-reverence and deity-worship.

I have noticed that you have made several posts on this site, so you have read a lot of what is said here. Has any of it had effect on what you believe or how you perceive Catholics?

I have learnt that Catholics, in general, behave better than Protestants. On a Protestant board my intro would be followed by a fire and brimstone sermon. Not so here.

Are you open to becoming a Christian?

Yes, but there are quite a few stumbling blocks. The afterlife system the greatest of them all. There’s a thread with my username on its title where this issue is being discussed.

You may have answered these questions before, if so I appoligise for aking again but rather than tru to read all your posts, I am just asking again. Thanks.

No need to apologise, after all, I’m just a guest here.

Blessed be.

 

[Lance]

Heathen Dawn:

I have learnt that Catholics, in general, behave better than Protestants. On a Protestant board my intro would be followed by a fire and brimstone sermon. Not so here.

Thanks but I am not sure that this is not always true. I think we Catholic can be a little ‘uppty’ because we believe we are the one true religion. As a convert I do think that one of the reasons the Protestents are so much into the ‘fire and brimstone’ is they are searching for what they lost when they left the Church. Now that I think about it this may the Muslim’s problem too, they are looking for the true God and are angry because they have not found Him.

Yes, but there are quite a few stumbling blocks. The afterlife system the greatest of them all. There’s a thread with my username on its title where this issue is being discussed.

I will go to that thread and read it. Anyway stick around on this site and I think you will learn more about us and who knows, you could even become one of us. I enjoy your posts.

 

[kjvail]

Heathen Dawn:

No religion at all. Atheist.

I can relate to this. My home was the same which means I grew up with a lot of ignorance and misconceptions about Christianity. It was only when I began to challange those misconceptions I began to grow.
Kudos to you, you are here challanging those misconceptions.

 

[DJHohl]

YinYangMom:

Ann,

While I sincerely appreciate how you expressed that so clearly and kindly, even as a strong Catholic myself, the Absolute Truth is still something you and I accept out of ‘faith’.

Someone else’s truth is ‘absolute’ for them, though you and I can only see The Absolute Truth as that outlined by ‘our’ Father. Wiccans don’t ascribe to that father so to tell them their truth is not THE truth is kind of arrogant on our part, don’t you think?

I consider myself truly blessed to have the grace of God in me enough to truly ‘believe’. I treasure my faith and pray others will be enlightened as well. I’m just not comfortable denying other peoples’ view of the world order and such outright. Perhaps that’s why I’m still uncomfortable with the charge of evangelization. I’m trying though.

Anne,

Hmmm…How can this be? I understand you not wanting to deny other people’s worldview BUT as a previous member said, there IS absolute truth. You said you “truely” believe but how can you believe that your way is the truth but other people have equal truths? If you “truly” believed then (again as a previous member said) why would you not want to share the truth that means life or death? If your child thought it was ok to walk into traffic, would you let them because it is thier world view?

Just being devil’s advocate here to stimulate thought. I am not making any comment on you personally Anne. But we all have to know if we are falling into the error of thinking that all opinions and beliefs are equal. That is not what the Church teaches.

Pax,
David

 

[silverbat]

Sparky:

Imagine, for a moment, that there was a piece of information that meant the life or death of every human being on earth, and you knew the truth.

all im asking is…how exactly can you all say that yours is the truth…did god or christ come to you himself and tell you this…no? sorry my mistake…you read it in a book… ok…thats good enough…

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

First off, to a greater or lesser degree that God has prepared us, to be Catholic IS to be evangelical. Now quite likely what that evangelism is is being the best Catholic one can be-demonstrating charity and understanding above all.

However, being understanding is not equate to condoning. Toleration does not equate to acceptence. Of course others have the right to believe differently and live so in a civil society–but that acceptence does not mean “accepting your belief is just as good as mine”

Neo-paganism of most stripes is founded on relativism–especially the post-modernist variety. It is also HIGHLY influenced by the sort of spiritual relavism of Hinduism/Buddhism via European occultism (Blavatsky and Crowley among others) Granted, most contemporary Wiccans are knowing of the recent origins of their faith–they’ll shrug their shoulders when informed Wicca was createdby a retired English civil servant with a taste for ceremony and nudism. It ties into the post-modern philosphies of Foucault (and others) who argue that personal meaning is independent of any physical reality–If one gets a “feel good” from whatever belief that belief is, per se, “valid”.

However, there is a much older position that says that the holding of such a stance is willing blindness and delusion–that maintainance of a belief one KNOWS does not correlate to reality is deficient in so many ways (See the works of Mortimer Adler for much more on this).

I’ve taken comparitive religion classes (Including on Witchcraft and Magic) --by no means am I an expert, but i’ve read several books about Wicca both inside and outside the religion, I’ve talked to several wiccans, in person and on line.

Some observations:

1. Wiccans tend to come from either religious non-observant families or dysfuntionally abusive religious families. In either case, they react against that tradition for something that reflects their interests. An exception is those wiccans that come from a family that practices some sort of magic/occult (including spiritualism, divination…)
2. Pre-existant interests priming one topwards Wicca include feminism and “deep ecology”. Often, a reaction against general sexual mores is in the mix.
3. Persuation by personal contact or prominent writers–of course this is common in almost any form of religious conversion.
4. Adoption, conciously or unconciously, of post-modern relativism-my belief is just as “good” as yours (since they’re all founded on the unknowable, subjective feeling is THE determinate factor of what is REAL to you)

Now, in regards to Catholic witnessing to Wiccans; don’t start with the Authority of the Church, Holy Tradition, or the Bible. Just friendly conversation of if there really is objective reality, even Supernatural reality. Two mutually contradictory statementsa cannot be both true at the same time, beginer stuff like that. Again Mortimer Adler is invaluable, his stuff is highly readable, even from his Aristotilean approach. (BTW, Adler started out as an atheist, and went from that to Theism, to Christianity, to Catholic Christianity).

If one can get a wican to question the relativist philosophy, one is better than half way there. But always, by friendly example and talk, NEVER by brow beating or ad hominum attacks upon their faith.

 

[kjvail]

silverbat:

all im asking is…how exactly can you all say that yours is the truth…did god or christ come to you himself and tell you this…no? sorry my mistake…you read it in a book… ok…thats good enough…

Oh boy, attack of the moral relativists… try this here - perhaps a light will come on:

diocesereport.com/guest_col/rao_cannot_defend_march03.shtml