Wiccans and apologetics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Makerteacher
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
However, being understanding is not equate to condoning. Toleration does not equate to acceptence. Of course others have the right to believe differently and live so in a civil society–but that acceptence does not mean “accepting your belief is just as good as mine”
Neo-paganism of most stripes is founded on relativism–especially the post-modernist variety. It is also HIGHLY influenced by the sort of spiritual relavism of Hinduism/Buddhism via European occultism (Blavatsky and Crowley among others) Granted, most contemporary Wiccans are knowing of the recent origins of their faith–they’ll shrug their shoulders when informed Wicca was createdby a retired English civil servant with a taste for ceremony and nudism. It ties into the post-modern philosphies of Foucault (and others) who argue that personal meaning is independent of any physical reality–If one gets a “feel good” from whatever belief that belief is, per se, “valid”.
Click to expand...
See the article I linked in my last post, it’s excellent. It really is this realization that there *is *objective moral truth in the world that led me away from Wicca.
Some observations:
Click to expand...
Generalizations are dangerous 🙂
  1. Wiccans tend to come from either religious non-observant families or dysfuntionally abusive religious families. In either case, they react against that tradition for something that reflects their interests. An exception is those wiccans that come from a family that practices some sort of magic/occult (including spiritualism, divination…)
Click to expand...
Accurate as far as it goes, most of the Wiccans or Pagans I’ve know have an agnostic or religiously abusive family background.
  1. Pre-existant interests priming one topwards Wicca include feminism and “deep ecology”. Often, a reaction against general sexual mores is in the mix.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, of course for it me it more of a mideavalism. An attraction to mysticism and ritual. I’ve always had the distinct feeling I was born in the wrong milenumn :confused:
  1. Persuation by personal contact or prominent writers–of course this is common in almost any form of religious conversion.
Click to expand...
Had a girlfriend in college that was a Wiccan
  1. Adoption, conciously or unconciously, of post-modern relativism-my belief is just as “good” as yours (since they’re all founded on the unknowable, subjective feeling is THE determinate factor of what is REAL to you)
Click to expand...
I was in public universities for like 7 years, and 12 years of public schools prior to that - you can definitely call me indoctrinated in moral relativism.
 
40.png
kjvail:
See the article I linked in my last post, it’s excellent. It really is this realization that there *is *objective moral truth in the world that led me away from Wicca. .
Click to expand...
Way cool link—I’m going to have to study that one quite a bit
 
40.png
kjvail:
Perhaps, of course for it me it more of a mideavalism. An attraction to mysticism and ritual. I’ve always had the distinct feeling I was born in the wrong milenumn :confused: .
Click to expand...
Yes, certain groups, like the Society for Creative Anachronism do attract a high proportion of Wiccans–in fact, during my sojourns in that group, It was hard to find any observant Christians–seemed to be secular or neo-pagans (admiting to extreaming limited observation anf time period!)
 
I have also noticed a higher percentage of those interested in “renaissance” or “medieval” things being at least pagans, if not practicing Wiccans. A recent outing to a large Renassaince Festival was chock full of things like necklaces that were amulets, energy crystals, palm readings, goddess-themed gift items, etc etc.

Anyone know why this might be so? What is it about this time period and/or lifestyle (of the re-enactor, like the SCA folks) that draws pagans? My first thought is the freedom and lack of authority in both the religious beliefs and int he lifestyle. No rules except the ones you make yourselves?

Also as an artist (or at least a wanna be artist; I work in clay and glass) I have found far more pagans in the art world than Christians --and especially more non- Christians than Catholic Christians. Sometimes I feel like a weirdo because I am drawn to artistic pursuits but consider myself a pretty orthodox Catholic. The Catholics think I’m weird for being into art and the art world thinks I’m weird for being into Catholicism. :rolleyes:
 
my fiance and i go to Salem Mass every year for the halloween season. such a fun time up there - tons of great things for the season from both a spooky and historical vantage point. (even got engaged there last year in the garden at the House of the seven Gables right before halloween) it’s a fun, campy, exciting place that time of the year. my only experience with wiccans is the time i popped two flat tires on a road after riding over a broken bottle in the road., car after car passed me by (it was raining) when after a half hour wait, a car with a guy and a girl, in a car with wiccan bumberstickers wearing pentagrams and black clothes, pulled over behind me, lent me a cell phone (my battery was dead), and sat and had coffee with us at the dunkin donuts till the tire guy arrived. nice people. no one else had pulled over to help us, they did.
just my 2¢
 
Just a note: relativism isn’t the position of all Wiccans. And even the position regarding different religions is that they’re all true, but that they all work in connecting their practitioners with their deities.

For my part, I believe the Christian when he says he has a relationship with God; but I don’t believe certain Christian truth-claims, such as that that God is the only one, or hell. And I don’t think all religious practices are legitimate. Flying a plane into a building is not a legitimate way of worshipping one’s deity.
 
40.png
Makerteacher:
I have also noticed a higher percentage of those interested in “renaissance” or “medieval” things being at least pagans, if not practicing Wiccans. A recent outing to a large Renassaince Festival was chock full of things like necklaces that were amulets, energy crystals, palm readings, goddess-themed gift items, etc etc.
Anyone know why this might be so? What is it about this time period and/or lifestyle (of the re-enactor, like the SCA folks) that draws pagans? My first thought is the freedom and lack of authority in both the religious beliefs and int he lifestyle. No rules except the ones you make yourselves?
Click to expand...
I used to go to these things regularly in FL, they have an annual Renaissance Faire in Ft. Lauderdale that is a huge 2 week production, I loved it. I still would go if they had them in IN.
I think it’s that (erroneous) belief that Wicca is tied to the ancient pre-Christian faiths of Europe. You definitely get that impression if you read Grave’s The White Goddess*. *Which is about the closest thing Wiccan’s have to an authoritative text.
I think many Wiccans, like many Christians, seek to escape the consumerism, positivism and materialism of our of everyday culture and connect with the spirit of the Mideaval age. There is a sense that it is more pure and free, in this, they are of course correct.
Wiccan’s are mystics generally, they see magic and spiritual dimensions in every day life but the speed of modern life is distracting and obscuring.
I would disagree about the authority thing, it is counter-cultural true, but the re-enactments at reniassance faires often involve depictions of royalty and aristocracy coupled with a aura of deference and pagentry that is missing in modern life. Everyone comes out the front gate when the trumpets are blown in the morning to greet the arrival of the King and Queen! Many pay fairly high prices to eat dinner with the royal couple and further roleplay their obescience.
People that really get ‘in character’ in these faires address each other as “My lord/lady” and there is a formality in mannerisms that you just don’t see normally. Chivarly is reborn!
The only thing I can liken the experience to is attending a formal High Latin Mass at a traditional parish - the Mass is a far more *real *connection with the mideaval spirit of course.
Someone is going to think me a horrible heretic or something now, I’m not saying the renaissance faire = latin mass - not at all but those are two things I can do that really connect me to the spirit of that age and history. In both cases I feel as if I am stepping out of the normal chaos of the modern world into a simpler, more spiritual age.
I think alot of the mideaval wiccans are really looking for tradition.
 
This thread is important not only because of the discussion on Wicca but because it brings up questions on evangelization. Christians are called to evangelize, we must be strong enough to defend the Catholic Church and teach apologetics out of charity for those around us. The question we should ask ourselves is “what is my motivation?” Our actions should produce good fruits. If we are motivated out of pride and arrogance, it will, rightfully so, turn people off. Evangelization must come from the Holy Spirit, we should reach out to others out of love, guided by the Holy Spirit. Yes, there is a time for riteous anger, a time to make a stronger response, but I would reserve this for moments where I am attacked for being Catholic, especially when the “attacker” is spreading outright lies. I would never want to be the one “attacking” a member with rude, hatefull comments and accusations. I have no problem laying out a civil, moderately academic argument. (it doesnt’ have to be in a perfect format, I like a more casual approach) That is one of the aspects I enjoy about this site. I enjoy discussing and arguing theology. (argue in the academic sense) I learn alot from it, and my “real life” friends get a break from discussing religion, though I think they enjoy it too.
 
kjvail has some really interesting posts on this thread! I am enjoying reading your perspective, I think you could start a whole Wicca/Catholic discussion forum! I think most of us who have never been involved in Wicca know very little about it and would probably find it a challenge to discuss Catholic apologetics with this religious group because of this. .
 
40.png
thechrismyster:
my fiance and i go to Salem Mass every year for the halloween season. such a fun time up there - tons of great things for the season from both a spooky and historical vantage point. (even got engaged there last year in the garden at the House of the seven Gables right before halloween) it’s a fun, campy, exciting place that time of the year. my only experience with wiccans is the time i popped two flat tires on a road after riding over a broken bottle in the road., car after car passed me by (it was raining) when after a half hour wait, a car with a guy and a girl, in a car with wiccan bumberstickers wearing pentagrams and black clothes, pulled over behind me, lent me a cell phone (my battery was dead), and sat and had coffee with us at the dunkin donuts till the tire guy arrived. nice people. no one else had pulled over to help us, they did.
just my 2¢
Click to expand...
How “Good Samaratin!” You have your very own modern version. 🙂
 
my only experience with wiccans is the time i popped two flat tires on a road after riding over a broken bottle in the road., car after car passed me by (it was raining) when after a half hour wait, a car with a guy and a girl, in a car with wiccan bumberstickers wearing pentagrams and black clothes, pulled over behind me, lent me a cell phone (my battery was dead), and sat and had coffee with us at the dunkin donuts till the tire guy arrived. nice people. no one else had pulled over to help us, they did.
just my 2¢
Click to expand...
How “Good Samaritan!” You have your very own modern version. 🙂
 
all im asking is…how exactly can you all say that yours is the truth…did god or christ come to you himself and tell you this…no? sorry my mistake…you read it in a book… ok…thats good enough…
Click to expand...
it’s called faith
 
Evangelization must come from the Holy Spirit, we should reach out to others out of love, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
This happened to me all day yesterday. God allowed me to evangelize to three different people. Led by the Holy Spirit, with love, I was able to explain the fullness of the faith to three people who previously had never considered the Catholic faith. I hope a seed was planted and I will pray :bowdown: for God to help it grow. How can it be wrong when you FINALLY :banghead: understand the TRUTH :dancing: , (to the best of your human ability) to share it with anyone who will listen?
 
I’ve never tried Christianity; the closest to it I tried in the past was Orthodox Judaism, and it’s off-topic to elaborate why it turned me off. The chief reason why I haven’t tried Christianity is hell—the idea that otherwise innocent people go to eternal torment just for holding the wrong belief. You may argue I have a Protestant strawman in mind, but that’s the only version I know well. Another thing is Christianity tends to devalue earthly life and to construe all the beauty of nature as merely the prowess of God. And another thing is the status of women in Christianity isn’t something to write home about (I’m not a woman but it bothers me still). The last two reasons are common to all Abrahamic religions.
Click to expand...
I am enjoying your posts on this topic! I would like to make the comment that the Catholic belief is that human beings were created by God, and were never meant to die. God gave us free will because he didn’t want us to be puppets, but to be the image of him as creator of the universe. That is why human beings have such a strong need to be creative, to seek beauty and harmony. God created us to love and enjoy, to be his children. He wants us to love him freely. WE choose heaven or hell. We have the choice to do good or evil. Suffering is a part of life and “prunes” us to be better than we could ever imagine. God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell… just like a parent never wants their toddler to run out into a busy street. We give our children rules to protect them from danger, and as a mother, I have come to view God in this way.
One of the things I love about Christianity is that the world was created “good” The gnostics believed the material world was bad or evil and got in the way of spirituality, this was condemned by the Catholic Church early on. I think you may enjoy learning about some of the Saints, especially the mystics. Christianity is synonomous with life. Life is celebrated, protected, a gift.
When it comes to the topic of women in the church, I feel very strongly that women are held with great esteem. Jesus performed his first miracle because his mother Mary urged him to turn water into wine at the Wedding of Cana. Jesus included women in his circle and treated them with equality, in ways his culture deemed unusual. God (Jesus) chose men to be his disciples and priests, but he had women who were there at the last supper. There were three people at the foot of His cross, Mary Magdelene, His mother Mary, and John. It was Mary Magdelene whom Jesus chose to first appear after the resurrection. She was not his wife or lover because Jesus was not married and was sinless, but he must have had a huge amount of respect for her. I feel that I have an important role in the Catholic Church with my vocation as a mother. I love the Sacrament of Marriage, that God uses our love to create new life, allowing us the awesome gift of changing the universe forever with a new soul, a soul that will live for eternity. God also gave me artistic gifts, which I strive to use for his glory.
God’s most perfect Creation was Mary. She was born without sin, perfect to be the new tabernacle of God, the new Eve, She accepted the will of God, and she urges her children to worship and adore her beloved Son. All generations will call her blessed. She is the Woman clothed with the sun in the book of Revelations.

The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ. If the Church was disrespectful of women would it be referred to as the bride? It is easy to confuse Church heirarchy with status but in the Catholic Church, women have an important role men cannot fill.
 
The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ. If the Church was disrespectful of women would it be referred to as the bride? It is easy to confuse Church heirarchy with status but in the Catholic Church, women have an important role men cannot fill.
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church, in her wisdom, understands that … wonder of wonders… men and women are *different. :eek: *

In our modern society, obsessed with the idea of equality, we often create monotony instead.
Men and women are of equal value in the eyes of God but not the same - they have different strengths and weaknesses - different needs and perspectives - they are complimentary. A man’s goal shouldn’t be to be more like a woman nor a woman’s to be more like a man but rather to be the perfect man or woman Christ calls us to be, in accordance with natural law.
This idea is also found in Wiccan philsophy. Wiccan’s, I think, are far more Catholic than they even know.
When I came to Catholicism I didn’t have to be taught the concept of free will, I already knew that my actions determined my consequences - I didn’t need to be taught that ritual and tradition are important to connecting with the divine.
There are many other areas of overlap, but it’s late and my mind isn’t working atm.
Like so many other Catholic converts I bear no animus towards my former belief system. I know now it was *incomplete *but I had to go there to be here.
 
The chief reason why I haven’t tried Christianity is hell—the idea that otherwise innocent people go to eternal torment just for holding the wrong belief.
Click to expand...
Our God is a God of mercy. If someone* knows* and believes the Truth but knowingly turns against it they are choosing to be without God, they are *choosing *evil… We don’t know the kind of mercy Christ will show those who never had the opportunity to know Truth. We could probably start a whole thread about the concept of hell.
 
When I came to Catholicism I didn’t have to be taught the concept of free will, I already knew that my actions determined my consequences - I didn’t need to be taught that ritual and tradition are important to connecting with the divine.
There are many other areas of overlap, but it’s late and my mind isn’t working atm.Like so many other Catholic converts I bear no animus towards my former belief system. I know now it was *incomplete *
Click to expand...
but I had to go there to be here.
Click to expand...

I was hoping to find some common ground with the concept of free will and roles of men and women.
Pagans or gentiles were called to Christianity along with the Jews. In the human nature is a desire to seek God. There is an innate understanding that death is disordered and not the end of life, thus various responses to this mystery. Reincarnation is one response. Religion is the human response to mystery, God chose to make his covenant with the Jewish people and revealed himself to them. Meanwhile the Pagans seemed to be on their own inner search. In some ways Christian concepts may have been easier for the gentiles or pagans to accept because it was what they were searching for all along, the Jewish tradition had alot of preconceived notions for what the messiah would be like, Jesus was, in many ways, very different from expectations. I think you have a very special and interesting story of your journey home to the Catholic Church and am glad to read your perspective
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top