Widow/widowers re-marry question

[catholicsaint]

Hellow, I have a question regarding widow and widowers. If a husband or wife dies is the widow or widower considered a virgin again by Jesus ?. Now the reason I ask this question is that I have wondered that the widow or widower is not a virgin in both there cases and that I have allways thought that Jesus wanted men and women who are Christan to get married to pure virgins. And may I add that I found this bible verse in the old testament that is too do with what iam saying, “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. A widow, or a divorced woman, or a woman who has been defiled, or a prostitute, these he shall not marry. But he shall take as his wife a virgin of his own people”
It just really confuses me that Saint paul said that widows should remarry. But should they only re-marry people who are widowers or in the case of biblical times older men that never got married ??. It just seems to my understanding that maybe Saint Paul is saying that it does not matter if the women or men are virgins once they are widowed. Could it be because there husbands/wives are dead and maybe some sense in it that way. Sorry just it really makes me think !!. In biblical times would a man take a widow with children to be his wife ? My gut feeling says no. Would it be that most widows in biblical times would be the responsibility of both her family and her in-laws. Did Jesus approve of brother in-laws marrying there brothers wives if the brother passed away ?

 

[Rence]

Hellow, I have a question regarding widow and widowers. If a husband or wife dies is the widow or widower considered a virgin again by Jesus ?

No.

. Now the reason I ask this question is that I have wondered that the widow or widower is not a virgin in both there cases and that I have allways thought that Jesus wanted men and women who are Christan to get married to pure virgins.

No, It’s not that men are women are called to get married to “pure virgins”.
We are all called to be chaste, which is having a sexual life appropriate to one’s station in life. That means, singles should not be having sex at all with anyone, and married people should only be having sex with their spouse. There nothing dirty or sinful about sex. But one is called by the Church to be chaste according to their station in life.

.
And may I add that I found this bible verse in the old testament that is too do with what iam saying, “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. A widow, or a divorced woman, or a woman who has been defiled, or a prostitute, these he shall not marry. But he shall take as his wife a virgin of his own people”

That still has to do with chastity.

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It just really confuses me that Saint paul said that widows should remarry.

Why should it confuse you? People who have sex with their spouse are still chaste.

. It just seems to my understanding that maybe Saint Paul is saying that it does not matter if the women or men are virgins once they are widowed.

That’s correct. It doesn’t matter.

In biblical times would a man take a widow with children to be his wife ?

Yes, he could and still can. Because a marriage is only valid while each spouse is still living. When someone dies, their spouse is not married to them anymore and the marriage bond is broken.

. Did Jesus approve of brother in-laws marrying there brothers wives if the brother passed away ?

I don’t know about Jewish laws regarding the above. Catholics are allowed to do so as long as the spouses in question are not blood brother and sister. Though it might be a bit weird. I can see how that can happen though.

 

[catholicsaint]

Another thing I was wondering, and sorry if its off topic but, if Saint Paul thought in his opinon that people should stay single, is this not going against What God wanted from the very start, that man and women should be married ?. When Saint Paul was talking about people having problems if they get married, did he mean that the idea of marriage was being changed by mans ways and maybe better to stay single ?? I find it very hard to understand some of Saint Pauls teaching at times

Once again sorry for going slightly off topic here. Any help with this is much needed. thank you.

 

[Rence]

Another thing I was wondering, and sorry if its off topic but, if Saint Paul thought in his opinon that people should stay single, is this not going against What God wanted from the very start, that man and women should be married ?. When Saint Paul was talking about people having problems if they get married, did he mean that the idea of marriage was being changed by mans ways and maybe better to stay single ?? I find it very hard to understand some of Saint Pauls :

It was just Paul’s opinion, and he’s entitled to it. He felt the better deal was to be single and in service of others. The reality is, some people are called to be married and some people are called to be single. But we are all called to be chaste according to our station/status in life.

 

[catholicsaint]

Ah ok Rence, I understand your point. Yes it makes sense to me. But maybe it would be better for a women or man to marry a virgin. Since if you marry a widow or widower, you would not be there first. And it could cause problems in a marriage. But yes I had an idea that a widow or widower would be a special case because if they were holy and pure and there husband or wife dies they are still pure and clean in Gods eyes. But still I have this idea that maybe Jesus wants men and women to be virgins entering marriage. But yes Rence your point is correct. Rence, Would it be that it is a kind of mercy from Jesus that allows the widow or widower to re-marry ??

But when you look at it from distance you can see well I suppose if the womens husband is dead or mans wife is dead then it might not cause too much problems to marry a widow or widower because theres no danger of bumping into them on the street and drama or scandal to unfold. So in essence my point is there is no shame. Thinking now its quite good idea I suppose. Its just the whole she or he was having sexual relations before that person that could annoy someone

 

[Rence]

Ah ok Rence, I understand your point. Yes it makes sense to me. But maybe it would be better for a women or man to marry a virgin. Since if you marry a widow or widower, you would not be there first. And it could cause problems in a marriage.

Certainly if one can’t get over not “being there first”, they shouldn’t marry anyone else but a virgin and hope for the best. The rest of the world can use their noodle, live a chaste life, and ideally marry someone who values chastity like they do.

But yes I had an idea that a widow or widower would be a special case because if they were holy and pure and there husband or wife dies they are still pure and clean in Gods eyes.

No, they’re not a “special” case. The same rules of sex govern married and single/divorced/widowed people.

But still I have this idea that maybe Jesus wants men and women to be virgins entering marriage. But yes Rence your point is correct. Rence,

Well, of course the “ideal” is to be a virgin and to marry a virgin. Both should be virgins. It’s way over the top for someone to require a virgin for marriage while not being a virgin themselves. But in real life, it doesn’t always work out that way.

Would it be that it is a kind of mercy from Jesus that allows the widow or widower to re-marry ??

No. It has nothing to do with “mercy”. Why would “mercy” be involved? Simply put, a widow or widower is free to remarry because the previous marriage was severed by the death. It’s as simple as that. They are free to marry again because they are no longer married. It’s “till death do us part”. The marital bond is severed by death, leaving the surviving spouse single. Period.

But when you look at it from distance you can see well I suppose if the womens husband is dead or mans wife is dead then it might not cause too much problems to marry a widow or widower because theres no danger of bumping into them on the street and drama or scandal to unfold. So in essence my point is there is no shame. Thinking now its quite good idea I suppose. Its just the whole she or he was having sexual relations before that person that could annoy someone

There is no shame at all whatsoever in having sex with a spouse. So there is no shame involved. The same way there is no shame when someone has gotten an annulment. They are free to marry and they are free of shame, there was never any shame to begin with, and there was nothing impure about having relations with that person while they were presumed in a valid marriage.

The way you are writing about purity, and shame, in the context of sex means you need some counseling. Sex isn’t dirty. We are all called to chastity according to our station in life. Period. Perhaps you should have a sit down with your family priest about how you regard sexual relations and shame.

 

[catholicsaint]

Ah Rence, no need to go over the top about it son. Shame is apart of life. And I never said sex was dirty. I think you just imagine that by yourself. All iam trying to ask is the meanings and the understanding in what Saint Paul is saying because a lot of catholics take there religion serious. Oh wait maybe I need counselling for that too. Come on Rence grow up. Maybe you got anger issues and you need help. I bet you wouldn’t be happy to hear that. Point being don’t be rude or bully people please son.

 

[catholicsaint]

Rence all I was saying was that some people would like a wife or husband to be a virgin. Virgin = purity. How would I need counselling if I agree with that ?

Rence if you met 5 of your wifes previous boyfriends and they all talked about there sexual encounter with your wife, would you be comfortable with this?.Is this healthy?. And if not do you need conselling. I think not my friend. Please no offence intendeded Rence.

 

[Rence]

Ah Rence, no need to go over the top about it son. Shame is apart of life. And I never said sex was dirty. I think you just imagine that by yourself.

Uh-huh Ok, well, yeah, to answer your question, again, from your first post: widows and widowers can get married because the marital bond is broken by death, and they’re not impure to begin with just because they’re not virgins. And of course, we can’t become virgins again, once one is not a virgin anymore, virginity is gone. It’s a done deal. So virginity is out of the equation. That doesn’t mean one isn’t pure anymore. And yes, we are allowed to marry widows or widowers…and we are allowed to marry non-virgins. But we are all also called to chastity.

All iam trying to ask is the meanings and the understanding in what Saint Paul is saying because a lot of catholics take there religion serious. Oh wait maybe I need counselling for that too. Come on Rence grow up. Maybe you got anger issues and you need help. I bet you wouldn’t be happy to hear that. Point being don’t be rude or bully people please son.

Sorry if you feel you’re being bullied, that certainly is not my intention. I was only trying to help. Let me try to answer your question above: Paul was of the opinion that it’s better to be single so that one can devote themselves to others and worship of God without the distractions that come from a spouse and children.

 

[DarkLight]

And may I add that I found this bible verse in the old testament that is too do with what iam saying, “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. A widow, or a divorced woman, or a woman who has been defiled, or a prostitute, these he shall not marry. But he shall take as his wife a virgin of his own people”

This passage had to do with the separation of priests. They were held to a higher standard because they were separated out to God. Note that the same passage also provides restrictions on the priest’s involvement with the dead, and limitations on the mourning they could engage in.

In biblical times would a man take a widow with children to be his wife ? My gut feeling says no. Would it be that most widows in biblical times would be the responsibility of both her family and her in-laws. Did Jesus approve of brother in-laws marrying there brothers wives if the brother passed away ?

From what I’ve studied it was not uncommon. A Roman woman would certainly remarry; she might even be more desirable as a wife because she was more likely to have property. Jewish culture also expected widows to remarry, and it might even be seen as a good thing, especially if she had children, to provide for her.

 

[catholicsaint]

Rence , even if a man married a widow, he could have problems with his wife having emotional attachment to her husband that died. And if there was kids, it would be a battle because the children might not fully consider the new husband as there new father. I would imagine that it would be hard for any women or man to accept other peoples children in a marriage. It just sounds so complicated really. Maybe better if both people were widows equally with children that were getting married.

 

[Rence]

Rence all I was saying was that some people would like a wife or husband to be a virgin. Virgin = purity. How would I need counselling if I agree with that ?

Yes, you’re right, I’m in complete agreement with you: some people would like a wife or husband to be a virgin and wouldn’t be happy with anything else but a virgin. Virgin does equal purity. But — not being a virgin does NOT equal impurity. A married person, by consummating their marriage, doesn’t lose their purity. I’m sure you know what I mean.

Rence if you met 5 of your wifes previous boyfriends and they all talked about there sexual encounter with your wife, would you be comfortable with this?.Is this healthy?. And if not do you need conselling. I think not my friend. Please no offence intendeded Rence.

My friend, the older one gets, the more baggage they carry. That’s a fact. It is very likely that when one marries, they will marry someone who has had previous partners regardless of whether they slept with those previous partners or not). That’s a fact. So unless one marries when they are very young, and marries someone very young, the likelihood of their partner having previous relationships is pretty high - regardless of whether they slept with those past relationships or not. Hopefully not. But the older one decides to get married, and the older the spouse, the less likely they will either one of them be virgins. And if one requires their wife/husband to be a virgin, then they should be a virgin also.

Unless one marries someone without any partners (has never dated) or one who is a virgin, then one will obviously marry someone (on the flipside) who has had at least one other partner, and unless they move to the other side of the planet, they will probably encounter that partner. That’s life. And a fact too.

Would it bother me? No. If that bothers a person, they should absolutely hold out for the virgin without any previous partners. Absolutely. But if one marries someone that they know has had any kind of other relationships, and of course someone who has had sex with any one of these previous relationships, they should grow up and deal with the fact that that person had previous partners and not hold it against them. Otherwise, why marry that person at all. I’m sure you know that. After all, they knew about their spouse’s past and chose to marry that person anyway.

Back to your original post: Does Jesus allow the marrying of a person who has had other relationships or is not a virgin? Yes. This is allowed. Though that doesn’t change the fact that we are ALL called to chastity. I hope that answers your questions

 

[Rence]

Rence , even if a man married a widow, he could have problems with his wife having emotional attachment to her husband that died. And if there was kids, it would be a battle because the children might not fully consider the new husband as there new father. I would imagine that it would be hard for any women or man to accept other peoples children in a marriage. It just sounds so complicated really. Maybe better if both people were widows equally with children that were getting married.

You’re right: there are people out there who would have issues with marrying a widow because all he can think about is that his wife slept with her previous husband. And those people simply shouldn’t marry anyone who has had a previous relationship or they will unfairly hold it against them. If they’re not capable of accepting a widow, then they simply shouldn’t do it. That has no bearing whatsoever with another person who understands that marital bonds are broken by death and that a widow/widower is free to marry, and that a widow/widower hasn’t lost their purity from consummating their previous marriage.

As to kids involved, it’s no more “complicated” to accept one’s new wife/husband’s kids as their own as it is “complicated” adopting children. They are all part of a new family. If one can’t accept a potential spouse’s children (including children born out of wedlock), then they ought not to enter that marriage in the first place. Leave that to someone who is capable of making room for the children, and there are many who accomplish this quite well. Back to your original question: does Jesus allow it? Yes. But that doesn’t negate the command that everyone lead chaste lives.

 

[catholicsaint]

Ok Rence thank you for good answer friend.

Personally myself I have allways felt that it is better to stay single after your spouse dies. To stay single out of respect for the life we had and if I had children I think it would easier and respectful for them if I stayed single because they would never forget there father. iam a 45 year old women so I have a little experience in life. But I know one of the reasons Saint Paul wants women to re-marry is so they don’t be lonely in life.

 

[Gorgias]

I know one of the reasons Saint Paul wants women to re-marry is so they don’t be lonely in life.

No, I don’t think that it has anything to do with loneliness; rather, it has to do with avoiding sinfulness. He tells the Corinthians that, if a widow cannot exhibit self-control, she should remarry rather than “be on fire.” (He gives the same advice to single people.) In 1st Timothy, Paul further recommends that “younger widows” marry and bear children from their second marriage.

But, in none of his discussions of marriage and widows does Paul mention loneliness…

 

[HelenRose]

Ah ok Rence, I understand your point. Yes it makes sense to me. But maybe it would be better for a women or man to marry a virgin. Since if you marry a widow or widower, you would not be there first. And it could cause problems in a marriage. But yes I had an idea that a widow or widower would be a special case because if they were holy and pure and there husband or wife dies they are still pure and clean in Gods eyes. But still I have this idea that maybe Jesus wants men and women to be virgins entering marriage. But yes Rence your point is correct. Rence, Would it be that it is a kind of mercy from Jesus that allows the widow or widower to re-marry ??

But when you look at it from distance you can see well I suppose if the womens husband is dead or mans wife is dead then it might not cause too much problems to marry a widow or widower because theres no danger of bumping into them on the street and drama or scandal to unfold. So in essence my point is there is no shame. Thinking now its quite good idea I suppose. Its just the whole she or he was having sexual relations before that person that could annoy someone

That is their problem not the Church’s.

 

[catholicsaint]

Gorgias, I have a question for you

Why is it the norm in society down through time and even know that men in particular don’t want children from a previous marriage?

Would it not be better for the in-laws to look after the widow /widower since she or he is an in-law and already apart of the family of her dead husband or dead wife.

The jews had laws that stated that the women should marry the brother in-law or be looked after. So in essence is this not more respectable ?

Why does Saint Paul tell the widows to re-marry for ? Whats the meaning of it ?

Why does Saint Paul not keep with jewish tradtion ?

 

[catholicsaint]

Helenrose, the people are the church. What is the churchs problem is the peoples problem. And whats the peoples problem is the churchs problem.

The church are the people. God is head of the church. Fact.

 

[catholicsaint]

Thank you for answers Rence. You are a gentleman.

 

[Rence]

Ok Rence thank you for good answer friend.

Personally myself I have allways felt that it is better to stay single after your spouse dies. To stay single out of respect for the life we had and if I had children I think it would easier and respectful for them if I stayed single because they would never forget there father. iam a 45 year old women so I have a little experience in life. But I know one of the reasons Saint Paul wants women to re-marry is so they don’t be lonely in life.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, the Church disagrees with you and that’s why widows and widowers are free to marry. In addition, a step parent doesn’t replace a deceased spouse or parent. They are just a new addition to the family, and there’s no reason to forget about the deceased. Their memory should live on regardless of whether the spouse left behind marries or not.

I doubt very much that Paul cared whether women were lonely or not Though he clearly stated to marry, if one must, to avoid temptation and sin.