Widow's dilemma

[TLM08]

It’s not an option, it’s a sin. It doesn’t matter who she has lost, you can’t tell her it’s okay to commit one sin in order to avoid another!

I never said God was okay with “it”. It is an option to keep physical needs from overriding good sense.

Let’s look at “it” another way. Suppose your teenage son has a girlfriend and at the end of a date, his physical “needs” are about to override his religious instruction. If he can’t stop, what should he do?

Do you really think he is going to go home and pray …and that will stop him? Of course, that would be wonderful and should be the goal, but life doesn’t work like that.

 

[happymommy]

I never said God was okay with “it”. It is an option to keep physical needs from overriding good sense.

Things that God is not okay with are never an option. Sinning is not good sense

Let’s look at “it” another way. Suppose your teenage son has a girlfriend and at the end of a date, his physical “needs” are about to override his religious instruction. If he can’t stop, what should he do? He could take a cold shower!

Do you really think he is going to go home and pray …and that will stop him? Of course, that would be wonderful and should be the goal, but life doesn’t work like that.

Do you really understand the Churches teaching on this? Masturbation is a sin!! When one gives into to it, it’s not going to give you a “clearer” way of thinking! I don’t know how much time you have spent on this forum, but there is thread after thread of people who can’t stop and they feel terribly guilty. Why set yourself up for that. I think you are putting to much on sex! It’s not a need, like breathing and eating. It is a desire and a gift from God. If you change the way you think of sex and make it a need, you are taking the beauty out of it and making it a sin. I think the OP waited for her first two husbands, if she truly loves this man, she will wait for him and not sin in anyway! I don’t think it is wise to advise someone to sin!! She needs to decide if living her faith is more important then the money she is getting. Some people seem to think that pre-marital sex is only about the young. Only teenagers should abstain from it, but that is not true. She is a widow and I’m sorry for her loss, but until she remarries, she must live a chaste life. There is no amendment to the rule that says after the age of 40 you can sleep with whoever you want! The same rules still apply. Not married= no sex and no masturbation, ever. period, that’s it. There is no other way to look at it and no story that is going to make it okay!

 

[allhers]

Do you really understand the Churches teaching on this? Masturbation is a sin!! When one gives into to it, it’s not going to give you a “clearer” way of thinking! I don’t know how much time you have spent on this forum, but there is thread after thread of people who can’t stop and they feel terribly guilty. Why set yourself up for that. I think you are putting to much on sex! It’s not a need, like breathing and eating. It is a desire and a gift from God. If you change the way you think of sex and make it a need, you are taking the beauty out of it and making it a sin. I think the OP waited for her first two husbands, if she truly loves this man, she will wait for him and not sin in anyway! I don’t think it is wise to advise someone to sin!! She needs to decide if living her faith is more important then the money she is getting. Some people seem to think that pre-marital sex is only about the young. Only teenagers should abstain from it, but that is not true. She is a widow and I’m sorry for her loss, but until she remarries, she must live a chaste life. There is no amendment to the rule that says after the age of 40 you can sleep with whoever you want! The same rules still apply. Not married= no sex and no masturbation, ever. period, that’s it. There is no other way to look at it and no story that is going to make it okay!

Agreed, 100%.
Do these words ring a bell? “Pick up your cross and follow Me.”

 

[Black_Dog]

If this is social security, then the OP could get married in the Catholic Church, and then obtain a civil divorce. The Catholic Church would still consider her to be married, but the U.S. government would start up the social security payments again.

I hardly think such a course of action would be in the true spirit of a sacramental marriage!

with regards to the OP’s dilemma, I do appreciate that after having been in a close and loving relationship for so many years, being single can be frightening and lonely and that you desperately need to replace those lost feelings of love and security… You’ve met a man, hopefully a good one but you need more time to get to know each other before you make any decisions. If you do find that he’s everything you believe him to be and your feelings towards him are just as strong…then marry him and God bless you both.

 

[bilop]

Do you really understand the Churches teaching on this? Masturbation is a sin!! When one gives into to it, it’s not going to give you a “clearer” way of thinking! I don’t know how much time you have spent on this forum, but there is thread after thread of people who can’t stop and they feel terribly guilty. Why set yourself up for that. I think you are putting to much on sex! It’s not a need, like breathing and eating. It is a desire and a gift from God. If you change the way you think of sex and make it a need, you are taking the beauty out of it and making it a sin. I think the OP waited for her first two husbands, if she truly loves this man, she will wait for him and not sin in anyway! I don’t think it is wise to advise someone to sin!! She needs to decide if living her faith is more important then the money she is getting. Some people seem to think that pre-marital sex is only about the young. Only teenagers should abstain from it, but that is not true. She is a widow and I’m sorry for her loss, but until she remarries, she must live a chaste life. There is no amendment to the rule that says after the age of 40 you can sleep with whoever you want! The same rules still apply. Not married= no sex and no masturbation, ever. period, that’s it. There is no other way to look at it and no story that is going to make it okay!

Great Post!

Agree 100%!

God Bless

 

[TLM08]

Happymommy:

You are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. As a former teenage boy myself, I can honestly speak from experience. Cold showers never worked for me. Did they work for you?

You, as a woman cannot understand what it is like to be a man any more than I can understand what it is like to be a woman. Thank God for the differences.

So tell me Happymommy, how you deal with your failings in this area? Chances are, you probably did live a much more moral life than I did. In fact, I still struggle terribly. But why did you miss the mark on so many occasions? It always humbling and helps to look back at our own struggles and pasts when giving advice to others.

 

[happymommy]

Happymommy:

You are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. As a former teenage boy myself, I can honestly speak from experience. Cold showers never worked for me. Did they work for you?

You, as a woman cannot understand what it is like to be a man any more than I can understand what it is like to be a woman. Thank God for the differences.

So tell me Happymommy, how you deal with your failings in this area? Chances are, you probably did live a much more moral life than I did. In fact, I still struggle terribly. But why did you miss the mark on so many occasions? It always humbling and helps to look back at our own struggles and pasts when giving advice to others.

I don’t like you line of questioning, I find it rude and disrespectful. I have never said I was perfect!
Masturbation has never been a problem for me, not that it is any of your business! Again, a gentlemen would not ask a lady such questions!
It is humbling to look back at your own struggles, however you if you don’t learn anything from them, then they were pointless! Just because one has made mistakes doesn’t mean you don’t advise others to not make them. So someone has sex before marriage, does that mean you shouldn’t warn others that it is a sin and they shouldn’t go that route?
Just because one person gives into their “needs” does not mean that it’s okay. It’s still a sin.
This kind woman has come and asked for help. She is trying to avoid sin, we should not tell her that it is okay! I suggest you read the Bible and also theCatechism of the Catholic Church and where they both stand on this matter. We answer to someone much higher than just our own needs and wants!

 

[Newbie2]

I think TLMs question to happymommy was rhetorical, and he wasn’t being invasive or rude…

…but I’m a bit troubled by

In a perfect world, one waits for marriage to satisfy these needs, but this world is far from perfect. There are other “options” for satisfying those needs if you must.

unless the other “option” (singular) is chastity and purity of action.

 

[lostNconfused87]

Wow! I guess I opened up quite a discussion here!!!

I love this man and he loves me. Living with him is NOT an option unless I marry. I don’t believe that it is morally right and, as I noted before, I must set an example to my family and my church community to live what I believe. If chose to marry, I would lose VA benefits and his pension benefits which amount to a lot.

You know, masturbation is not something I am even tempted to do in this case. Being held and caressed is very satisfying. (No, we have not made love just in case you are wondering.)

I have another question: In order to commit a sin, don’t we have to first acknowledge that it is a sin for sin to take place? Thus,you must have the belief that you are about to commit a sin and then decide to do it anyway. Again, I cannot see how giving myself completely to someone I love is a sin - this is not just a fulfillment of carnal desire. It is a manifestation of totally surrendering myself to another person.

I am a good Catholic and so is my good friend. We both practice our faith. I also contribute a lot to my Church in terms of service hours and in a monetary sense. In fact, prior to my husband’s death, we set up a trust for the education of Catholic children who are in need of financial assistance.

In light of all of what I have said in this post, I cannot believe that an all-loving, all-knowing and merciful God is going to condemn me to hell if I choose to give myself totally to this ONE man at some time in the future.

 

[happymommy]

In light of all of what I have said in this post, I cannot believe that an all-loving, all-knowing and merciful God is going to condemn me to hell if I choose to give myself totally to this ONE man at some time in the future.

If that one man is not your husband, then yes, it will be a sin!!

You say you are a good Catholic, perhaps you should read the Bible and the Catechism! It’s pretty clear what God thinks of this.

In order to commit a sin, don’t we have to first acknowledge that it is a sin for sin to take place? Thus,you must have the belief that you are about to commit a sin and then decide to do it anyway. Again, I cannot see how giving myself completely to someone I love is a sin - this is not just a fulfillment of carnal desire. It is a manifestation of totally surrendering myself to another person.

You are trying to make yourself believe that it is okay so you can give into it. God will not be fooled by that. If you didn’t think it was wrong, you wouldn’t have asked the question, you would have just moved on with your relationship. It is suppose to be a total surrender of yourself to your husband, not just another person. If you are not willing to marry this man, then you must be chaste.

Being held and caressed is very satisfying.

Watch how far you take this as well. You could be sinning by doing that too!

I also contribute a lot to my Church in terms of service hours and in a monetary sense. In fact, prior to my husband’s death, we set up a trust for the education of Catholic children who are in need of financial assistance.

This is all wonderful! It does not give you a free pass to live in sin.

I think you should pray about this, go talk to your Priest and read the Bible and Catechism.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I don’t like you line of questioning, I find it rude and disrespectful. I have never said I was perfect!
Masturbation has never been a problem for me, not that it is any of your business! Again, a gentlemen would not ask a lady such questions!
It is humbling to look back at your own struggles, however you if you don’t learn anything from them, then they were pointless! Just because one has made mistakes doesn’t mean you don’t advise others to not make them. So someone has sex before marriage, does that mean you shouldn’t warn others that it is a sin and they shouldn’t go that route?
Just because one person gives into their “needs” does not mean that it’s okay. It’s still a sin.
This kind woman has come and asked for help. She is trying to avoid sin, we should not tell her that it is okay! I suggest you read the Bible and also theCatechism of the Catholic Church and where they both stand on this matter. We answer to someone much higher than just our own needs and wants!

You are right, happymommy. Explaining Church teaching and addressing the grave consequences to one’s soul to someone tempted to sin is a Spiritual Work of Mercy. It is not judgmental, it is the Truth, spoken in Christian love. Suggesting that someone commit a sin to relieve sexual tension is not Christian love. What kind of love is it to suggest a person sin and put their salvation at risk? Our highest concern should be for the souls of our brothers and sisters in such a situation.

And often, those who have gone down the path of sin and come out of it are best qualified to point out the dangers to someone else. They have lived it, and God often uses them to help others. Many of our greatest Saints have been some of the worst sinners, and used their experiences to help others.

 

[OriginalJS]

I think the Church would only allow you to not marry civilly if it were a question of persecution or fearing unjust treatment.

In this case, the Church would seem to be helping the OP in perpetrating a fraud by hiding he marriage in order to gain money. I don’t believe the Church could do that.

God Bless

Many couples find themselves in exactly this position. I agree that the Church would not take part in a fraud. But the Church (in the west) does not marry anybody, it only witnesses the couple marry each other. How about they marry each other separately and tell no one. Doesn’t that get them around the moral issue?

 

[bilop]

Many couples find themselves in exactly this position. I agree that the Church would not take part in a fraud. But the Church (in the west) does not marry anybody, it only witnesses the couple marry each other. How about they marry each other separately and tell no one. Doesn’t that get them around the moral issue?

No. When a priest or deacon is available a Catholic must have them as a witness, it’s not optional.

The couple is only permitted to marry w/o clergy if it is truly not possible to have one present (i.e. in a country where the Church is persecuted, like Saudi Arabia).

God Bless

 

[CB_Catholic]

Wow! I guess I opened up quite a discussion here!!!

I love this man and he loves me. Living with him is NOT an option unless I marry. I don’t believe that it is morally right and, as I noted before, I must set an example to my family and my church community to live what I believe. If chose to marry, I would lose VA benefits and his pension benefits which amount to a lot.

You know, masturbation is not something I am even tempted to do in this case. Being held and caressed is very satisfying. (No, we have not made love just in case you are wondering.)

I have another question: In order to commit a sin, don’t we have to first acknowledge that it is a sin for sin to take place? Thus,you must have the belief that you are about to commit a sin and then decide to do it anyway. Again, I cannot see how giving myself completely to someone I love is a sin - this is not just a fulfillment of carnal desire. It is a manifestation of totally surrendering myself to another person.

I am a good Catholic and so is my good friend. We both practice our faith. I also contribute a lot to my Church in terms of service hours and in a monetary sense. In fact, prior to my husband’s death, we set up a trust for the education of Catholic children who are in need of financial assistance.

In light of all of what I have said in this post, I cannot believe that an all-loving, all-knowing and merciful God is going to condemn me to hell if I choose to give myself totally to this ONE man at some time in the future.

Sister, look at the objective reality here–fornication is sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage. It is forbidden in God’s own Word, the Scriptures. It is not subject to interpretation, it is very clear and unambiguous. God’s commandments were given to us by God himself, and are not subject to our own emotions and desires. We cannot convince God to make an exception or change His mind because we don’t “feel” something is a sin. God is immutable.

This is a slippery slope you are going down, trying to say you have to acknowledge something is a sin in order to be a sin in order to convince yourself that it is not sinful. Sin is sin. If you are a devout Catholic and have been practicing your faith all these years, you have been taught that sex outside of marriage is a sin, this not a case of invincible ignorance. You know the Commandments and what the Church teaches about the subject. Please discuss this matter with your priest, and pray about it.

I am not judging you. I have used the same line of reasoning myself to assuage my conscience in certain matters. Most of us have at one time or another. It doesn’t work. There is always that nagging feeling, in the back of one’s mind, that something is not right. There is really no peace for a Christian who does this. They will always be trying to justify their actions. I have said a prayer for you to the BVM for intercession and guidance. God bless you.

 

[Newbie2]

I love this man and he loves me. Living with him is NOT an option unless I marry. I don’t believe that it is morally right and, as I noted before, I must set an example to my family and my church community to live what I believe.But sleeping with him IS OK??? If chose to marry, I would lose VA benefits and his pension benefits which amount to a lot.

I have another question: In order to commit a sin, don’t we have to first acknowledge that it is a sin for sin to take place? Thus,you must have the belief that you are about to commit a sin and then decide to do it anyway. Again, I cannot see how giving myself completely to someone I love is a sin - this is not just a fulfillment of carnal desire. It is a manifestation of totally surrendering myself to another person.

I am a good Catholic and so is my good friend. We both practice our faith.

Ho-boy. This is REALLY screwed-up thinking. You actually think that if you deny something is a sin that it then won’t be a sin in the eyes of the Almighty??? PLEASE tell me that you’re kidding…or PLEASE tell me that when you say “good Catholic” that you mean “a Catholic ignorant of the Catholic concept of sin and culpability”.

In light of all of what I have said in this post, I cannot believe that an all-loving, all-knowing and merciful God is going to condemn me to hell if I choose to give myself totally to this ONE man at some time in the future.

So, using your logic, if a pedophile didn’t really believe his actions were sinful (assuming a willing victim), then it wouldn’t be sinful.

Scary thought, no?

 

[February]

Hi Lost,

Though I am not a widow, I used to use the same justification. At the end of the day, you know what you’re thinking is wrong, or else you wouldn’t have to justify it to yourself and a message board forum. Don’t let the evil one trick you, you are stronger than that.

I am very sorry for the loss of your husband.

 

[manualman]

Sometimes bluntness is the most charitable approach.

What you (the OP) are essentially saying is that this REALLY, REALLY doesn’t feel like it could be a sin, so therefore it must NOT be a sin. Pretty much EVERYBODY who is about to sin feels this way. Sorry.

The pension system was established as a safety net to prevent widows from suffering unjust poverty upon their husbands death. Upon remarriage, this should not be so likely.

If you want to commit the sin of fraud instead of fornication, you could get married, but never turn in the signed and completed marriage license. But I’m not sure God is that much more impressed with those who commit fraud than those who fornicate.

As for poster TLM, it is par for the course. He finds Church teaching hard to live by too. Thus, there must be somethingwrong with it.

News flash to all: There’s nothing wrong with Church teaching. There is something wrong with US. We are inclined to sin because of the fall. Let’s all (and I’m included) quit trying rationalize our sin and start changing ourselves.

 

[ATL_Granny]

LostNConfused, I feel your pain – truly I do. I am your age and was married for 18 years. I have now been unmarried for almost as many years as I was married and in the early years I struggled mightily to find a “middle ground” where I could honor God and yet feel loved by a man.

First and foremost, I had to decide whether or not I REALLY wanted to follow God. Was I paying Him lipservice or was I willing to carry my cross, even if it meant I would lose the “love” of a man?

Your sentence above sums up where I was at one important juncture of my life : “So, again, I question at my age, where is the sin if I choose to give myself totally and exclusively to him?”

Through wise counsel from trusted women and many hours before God in prayer, I came to learn that I was trying to manipulate God to “see things my way.”

We cannot have sex outside of marriage, no matter how old we are. I have come to realize with a deep and profound admiration for our Faith that saving oneself for the marriage bed is just as precious a gift at our age as it was when we were younger. A man who truly loves you will admire you and honor your desire to remain chaste until marriage. If this man is Catholic, he should understand why chastity is so important.

When you say that you will be giving yourself “totally and exclusively to him,” I cringe. Again, I have been in your shoes! This sounds really nice and noble, but in reality you are not giving yourself totally to this man if you are not willing to marry him and allow God to handle your finances. God is bigger than your finances. Saying you can’t marry him because you’ll lose your past husband’s pension merely turns this new relationship into one of lust and convenience at that point – not a noble gesture of commitment.

You will have to make a choice here. A hard one. Ask God to shower you with His Grace and Mercy so that you can make the right choice. (Again, sex outside of marriage is not an option. But perhaps you will decide that marrying him is the right choice. Or, that staying single and enjoying the company of men without the romance is a better option for you.)

Obviously, I made the choice to remain celibate and single. I had to stop looking at myself as “incomplete” without a husband and allow God to show me that I can not only be whole as a single woman, but I can be very happy and blessed as a sngle woman. God used my prayer time to show me over and over again that He is my lover, my protector, my best friend.

Being single has allowed me to be more available to help others. I have enjoyed many different ministries and have the flexibility to be able to change my schedule with very little fuss.

God knows my heart, my strengths and my weaknesses. If He wants me to be married again, He has already picked out that husband and will arrange for our meeting and courtship at His prescribed time and in a way that will glorify Him.

Which reminds me – If you continue dating and want to honor God in that relationship, you must always ask yourself this question: “Does this relationship bring me closer to God or further away.” If the two of you aren’t becoming closer to God, then it’s not the right relationship.

I will pray for you, sister. I know how hard it is to be in this position where you feel that you are being asked to sacrifice something that appears to be so important. Yet, I also know the peace that comes from choosing to follow God in spite of my feelings. I hope and pray you will be able to find that peace.

 

[FIAT_MIHI]

Your eternal soul is worth so much more than a temporary pension. Fiat Mihi

 

[kage_ar]

All I can tell you is what I would do. If I discerned that marriage to this person would help me and him get to heaven, no amount of money would keep me from saying “I DO”.