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Arclight
Guest
How do you know this for sure?
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lostNconfused87
Guest
I don’t. I will have to look into it but it seems to me that my husband mentioned this to me prior to his death.
Re: Whether we would be closer to God: He has already told me that my faith has touched him in a positive way and we believe that God put us together for a reason. Similarly, I believe that God had a lot to do with the reason why I feel about this man as I do. Our paths crossed three times before I even knew him.
Finally, all good things come from God and this fellow is good.
It hasn’t been three months yet but I have good instincts.
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rinnie
Guest
I am in my late fortys. I have been married for going on 28 years. He is how I see it, if I made it this far I sure am not going to screw it up now.
You are Catholic, you know your Faith, Let God lead you. If something happened to my husband I do not feel that I would ever find someone else like him. But who knows what God would have in store for me. I hope I am never in your shoes, I understand though your position. But from what you have wrote you have been a good Catholic example for your faith. Please stay that way. We need more people like you.
But lets face it, we are not to live together, and have sex without marriage. So you have to let God lead you. I will pray for you. I would never judge you, but I pray you stay in good grace with God.
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Arclight
Guest
Since this seems to be a** choke point for the entire problem**, don’t you think you should find out? Hire a lawyer if you’re not satisfied with the explanation, or hire one anyway to get an unbiased view.
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ATL_Granny
Guest
LostNConfused – I thought the same thing late last night as I was offering a few quick prayers on your behalf.
If I understand correctly, a pension cannot be taken away as it is money that someone has earned or put away from their earnings which is tied into their company. (A 401K, for example.) The beneficiaries of that pension would be dictated through the deceased person’s will.
Social Security, on the other hand, is meant to prevent a widow or minor children from falling into poverty at the death of their bread winner. This is a stop-gap measure. If the widow remarries it is assumed that the money will no longer be needed and the entitlement expires. Same thing with the minor children. Once they turn 18 they are no longer eligible to receive Social Security benefits due to a deceased parent as they are considered to be of an age to go out and earn a living on their own.
So, when you said “pension” that you will lose if you remarry, I was scratching my head. If it is indeed a pension, the only way I could see you losing the right to that money would be if your deceased husband wrote in his will that the money would only go to you so long as you didn’t remarry.
If you are receiving Social Security, it was never meant to be a life-long stipend. Deliberately not marrying someone so that you can keep the income could be seen as an abuse of the system.
Might be worth checking into…
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happymommy
Guest
I’d like to know who told her this info!! Did your boyfriend say you would lose the pension if you married or is this something you thought of yourself. Look into it!LostNConfused – I thought the same thing late last night as I was offering a few quick prayers on your behalf.
If I understand correctly, a pension cannot be taken away as it is money that someone has earned or put away from their earnings which is tied into their company. (A 401K, for example.) The beneficiaries of that pension would be dictated through the deceased person’s will.
Social Security, on the other hand, is meant to prevent a widow or minor children from falling into poverty at the death of their bread winner. This is a stop-gap measure. If the widow remarries it is assumed that the money will no longer be needed and the entitlement expires. Same thing with the minor children. Once they turn 18 they are no longer eligible to receive Social Security benefits due to a deceased parent as they are considered to be of an age to go out and earn a living on their own.
So, when you said “pension” that you will lose if you remarry, I was scratching my head. If it is indeed a pension, the only way I could see you losing the right to that money would be if your deceased husband wrote in his will that the money would only go to you so long as you didn’t remarry.
If you are receiving Social Security, it was never meant to be a life-long stipend. Deliberately not marrying someone so that you can keep the income could be seen as an abuse of the system.
Might be worth checking into…
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TLM08
Guest
Again, you are making assumptions and putting words into my mouth. I never accused you of any particular sin. Remembering our own struggles helps keep us humble and recognize that we cannot do any of this on our own power. Many people struggle with loniness that can result in desires that don’t line up with church teaching and in this widow’s situation she could use a little compassion.
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ATL_Granny
Guest
TLM — Compassion is required, yet HappyMommy is right in that we cannot believe our circumstances give us pemission to substitute one sin for another.Again, you are making assumptions and putting words into my mouth. I never accused you of any particular sin. Remembering our own struggles helps keep us humble and recognize that we cannot do any of this on our own power. Many people struggle with loniness that can result in desires that don’t line up with church teaching and in this widow’s situation she could use a little compassion.
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happymommy
Guest
compassion and telling someone it’s okay to sin are two very different things!!Again, you are making assumptions and putting words into my mouth. I never accused you of any particular sin. Remembering our own struggles helps keep us humble and recognize that we cannot do any of this on our own power. Many people struggle with loniness that can result in desires that don’t line up with church teaching and in this widow’s situation she could use a little compassion.
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caro_c
Guest
I think you already know what to do?
You said in your first post that you were struggling with this dilema - so you know there is a conflict between what you want to do and what you know you should do.
You also said "I know that I cannot live with him…I must set an example …I do not think it is morally correct.
Listen to the voice of your conscience.
If you ask enough people you will find plenty of people who will tell you what you want to hear. But it may not be the truth.
Earnestly pray, “Thy will be done on”, and listen to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit in you heart.
If you truely follow God’s will, there will be no struggle, only peace.
But true peace often involves sacrafice.
You said in your first post that you were struggling with this dilema - so you know there is a conflict between what you want to do and what you know you should do.
You also said "I know that I cannot live with him…I must set an example …I do not think it is morally correct.
Listen to the voice of your conscience.
If you ask enough people you will find plenty of people who will tell you what you want to hear. But it may not be the truth.
Earnestly pray, “Thy will be done on”, and listen to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit in you heart.
If you truely follow God’s will, there will be no struggle, only peace.
But true peace often involves sacrafice.
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ATL_Granny
Guest
Caro – Amen. You have said in few words what I believe so many of us have been trying to say in pages.
Lost – Be not afraid! True love is sacrifical love. One thing which has been a guiding premise for me in this area is that the Number One criteria I have for a husband is that he love God more than he loves me. If he loves God more than me, he will be encouraging me to grow in holiness – not leading me into sin.
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
To the Widow,
You mention that living with this man would set a bad example to those around you, and I agree. However, having sex with this man and hiding it from those around you also sends a powerful message, i.e., it’s okay to sin as long as nobody gets caught! Is that your moral standard?
If you have an intimate relationship with this man, eventually people will find out. You’ll either get careless about keeping it quiet, tell a friend, or someone will see him leaving your house early one morning or he’ll tell his friends (most men do this), or both of you will get tired of sneaking around. Then in addition to the public scandal and bad example you were trying to avoid, you add the sin of moral hypocrisy to the sin of fornication. Your reputation and credibility as a good Christian will be ruined. Is it worth it?
The first sin, disobedience, was committed by a man and a woman. The second sin was hiding the first sin and trying to cover it up with a fig leaf. Adam and Eve looked silly hiding from God in the garden, and you look silly now trying to justify this to people here who know better. Please spare yourself this mess and work on a relationship with this man that God can bless. Either marry him or remain chaste with him.
You mention that living with this man would set a bad example to those around you, and I agree. However, having sex with this man and hiding it from those around you also sends a powerful message, i.e., it’s okay to sin as long as nobody gets caught! Is that your moral standard?
If you have an intimate relationship with this man, eventually people will find out. You’ll either get careless about keeping it quiet, tell a friend, or someone will see him leaving your house early one morning or he’ll tell his friends (most men do this), or both of you will get tired of sneaking around. Then in addition to the public scandal and bad example you were trying to avoid, you add the sin of moral hypocrisy to the sin of fornication. Your reputation and credibility as a good Christian will be ruined. Is it worth it?
The first sin, disobedience, was committed by a man and a woman. The second sin was hiding the first sin and trying to cover it up with a fig leaf. Adam and Eve looked silly hiding from God in the garden, and you look silly now trying to justify this to people here who know better. Please spare yourself this mess and work on a relationship with this man that God can bless. Either marry him or remain chaste with him.
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ATL_Granny
Guest
**Okay…let’s have a Stoning Party! Does everyone have their stone ready? **
Oh…wait…who is that over there, writing our names in the sand…
Gulp…
This lady came into this forum asking a sincere question. She wants to honor God, but has done what EVERY ONE OF US has done at some point…
…tried to rationalize something she believed must be good because of how she and this man felt about one another…
…but which also was causing her to question herself.
She has received tons of good advice, and even some pretty bad advice. Those of us who believe we are without sin just need to look in the mirror. She has come in here with a sincere heart asking a very difficult question which will – if she makes the right decision – cause her further pain.
**Let’s not stone her, but rather look at our own private sin life and give thanks to God for the ability to share some of our own journeys through difficult choices so that we can give this woman – and others – hope and confidence that persevering through the temporary pain of being obedient will bring peace and joy in the longer run. **
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
Reread my post. My advice to her was, “Either marry him or remain chaste with him.” What’s wrong with that advice? It’s in line with Church teaching and it saves her a lot of emotional grief.**Okay…let’s have a Stoning Party! Does everyone have their stone ready? **
Oh…wait…who is that over there, writing our names in the sand…
Gulp…
This lady came into this forum asking a sincere question. She wants to honor God, but has done what EVERY ONE OF US has done at some point…
…tried to rationalize something she believed must be good because of how she and this man felt about one another…
…but which also was causing her to question herself.
She has received tons of good advice, and even some pretty bad advice. Those of us who believe we are without sin just need to look in the mirror. She has come in here with a sincere heart asking a very difficult question which will – if she makes the right decision – cause her further pain.
**Let’s not stone her, but rather look at our own private sin life and give thanks to God for the ability to share some of our own journeys through difficult choices so that we can give this woman – and others – hope and confidence that persevering through the temporary pain of being obedient will bring peace and joy in the longer run. **
As for stoning her-far from it! I am giving her this advice not because I think I’m better than she is, but because I have been exactly in the same situation and I sinned. I wished somebody had warned me… I chose to “follow my heart” (an emotional decision) instead of following God (a moral decision) and it lead to disasterous results. I was just trying to spare her the considerable pain that I went through. Does that sound like “stoning” to you?
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ATL_Granny
Guest
I read your post…more than once. :banghead:
If you made the same mistake, then you know how painful it can be to choose between where your heart is telling you to go and where you know you should go. Kindness and compassion were somehow absent in your post.
Why couldn’t you have said something along the line of:* “Lost, I can understand why you’re torn. I made the mistake you are considering making and have lived to regret it terribly. Don’t make the same mistake I made.”*
Or something like that…
I think we’ve beaten this horse dead. Lost came here asking an honest question and has received honest answers. Let’s all wish her well and pray for her.
If you made the same mistake, then you know how painful it can be to choose between where your heart is telling you to go and where you know you should go. Kindness and compassion were somehow absent in your post.
Why couldn’t you have said something along the line of:* “Lost, I can understand why you’re torn. I made the mistake you are considering making and have lived to regret it terribly. Don’t make the same mistake I made.”*
Or something like that…
I think we’ve beaten this horse dead. Lost came here asking an honest question and has received honest answers. Let’s all wish her well and pray for her.
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lostNconfused87
Guest
Hello all
Thank you for your replies and advice. Some of your responses sounded harsh and did indeed lack compassion but I am not holding that against you.
As a Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, I wonder how many come to me to receive Jesus who are taking birth control, masturbating, or sharing their bed with someone else.
Also, how many of you have been in this situation? I would love to know.
While I must draw the line in the sand and say that I will never live with someone without being married is one thing that I am sure of, I am still unsure about giving myself to the one person who loves me and whom I love in return. I pray about this daily and so far I have not been in a situation where this could be a choice. If and when the day comes, I will follow what God is telling us to do.
Still LostnConfused after all these threads.
Thank you for your replies and advice. Some of your responses sounded harsh and did indeed lack compassion but I am not holding that against you.
As a Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, I wonder how many come to me to receive Jesus who are taking birth control, masturbating, or sharing their bed with someone else.
Also, how many of you have been in this situation? I would love to know.
While I must draw the line in the sand and say that I will never live with someone without being married is one thing that I am sure of, I am still unsure about giving myself to the one person who loves me and whom I love in return. I pray about this daily and so far I have not been in a situation where this could be a choice. If and when the day comes, I will follow what God is telling us to do.
Still LostnConfused after all these threads.
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ATL_Granny
Guest
*Still *LostnConfused? Hmmm…as you know, I’ve been trying to be completely compassionate and understanding, as I was very much in your position. I, too, struggled with my decision until I had some good Catholic friends call me up short on my thought process regarding sex outside of marriage.
It wasn’t until I stopped trying to kid myself that I finally had to admit that I refused to see sex outside of marraige as sinful simply because I wanted it. I wanted to have sex and tried to manipulate God into seeing things my way.
God is God. He isn’t going to change the rules simply because we want Him to. We can’t just look at others and say, “THEY’re sinning…why can’t I?” – which is exactly what you are saying when you question how many people come to you to receive the Eucharist who are sinning. God isn’t going to give you a “pass” because someone else is sinning worse than you. Comparing our sin to someone else’s is the same as your own child telling you that he stole a candy bar because his friend did, too. That’s just making excuses and we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of answer from our children, so it seems pretty shallow to be hearing it from someone who should certainly know better.
The problem with the picture you portray is that you believe that sin is up to you to decide. If it doesn’t “FEEL” like sin, then it’s not. Unfortunately, that’s not how it works.
God doesn’t change the rules to fit one person’s belief system. That’s creating God into your own image rather than conforming yourself into God’s image.
You came in saying that you want to be a good example to those around you. Now you know – just in case you didn’t before – that sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin. It’s not open to debate – it’s a fact. There is no such thing as “it’s a sin only if I believe it’s a sin.” The only way you can use that excuse is if you REALLY didn’t know any better — but you do.
So…I go back to my original post and my original response. I had to make the very hard decision of whether I wanted to please myself or please God. I chose the latter and have never regretted it. NOT that it wasn’t terribly hard. It was. Our relationship did not survive as this man – who I thought I loved – could not continue in a relationship that wasn’t sexual.
God is not fooled by mental gymnastics about whether we really want to agree with others as to whether something is sinful. You can certainly sign your name as Still Lost, but I would cut off the “confused” part. You’re not confused – just obstinate!
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lostNconfused87
Guest
Wow! If I am being obstinate, then I am not seeing it.
All I can say is that I am still praying. I don’t know where my relationship with this gentleman is going but I am still keeping the lines of communication with God and my friend open.
ATL Grammy: Have you had other men friends since your relationship ended? What is your approximate age?
All I can say is that I am still praying. I don’t know where my relationship with this gentleman is going but I am still keeping the lines of communication with God and my friend open.
ATL Grammy: Have you had other men friends since your relationship ended? What is your approximate age?
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ATL_Granny
Guest
The definition of obstinate is “adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion.” You had clearly stated that you didn’t believe sex outside of marriage was a sin due to your circumstances. There have been ample posts here which state clearly that it’s not just a sin, but a mortal sin.
When you say you are praying about it, I guess I would have to ask – “What is your prayer?” Is it *“Lord, please let me know if having sex with this man is a sin”? *If so, then your prayers are disingenuous. You know it is a sin, but you’re simply trying to manipulate God. Go check out this excellent website if you want to see a good guide to examination of conscience: scborromeo.org/confess.htm
When you come to realize that it really is a sin, then the choice is clear. No sex outside of marriage. The next step, based on your original post, would be to decide if you want to marry this man or just have a friendship with him. If losing your husband’s pension is going to block your marrying him, then your belief that you are giving yourself “totally” to this one man is also disingenuous. You are giving him only that part of you that doesn’t involve your finances. God is bigger than your money issues.
You say that you are a Eucharistic Minister and active in your church. If so, I will ask you this one question — how could you justify continuing in your ministries if you choose to sleep with a man you are not married to? Pointing your finger at others who sin doesn’t count.
I am turning the double-nickel this year – 55. Yes, I do have male friends. I also have lots of female friends and grown children. I am not lonely by any means. As a side issue, since it was part of your original “dilemma,” I only had a couple of years of financial support – and had to learn to have a career after 16 years of not working. I have been self-supporting for the last 15 years and bought my own house without assistance.
One of the best CD’s I have heard on the subject of sin is “Confession” by Fr. Larry Richards. Another CD of his which is fabulous is *“The Truth.” * I highly recommend you listen to both – they will change your life. (And he’s hilarious!) My church has them in the back of their sanctuary for a nominal donation, but you can find them at thereasonforourhope.org/
I wish you well, Lost. Really I do.
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larry85704
Guest
Hi
Having a sacramental marriage end really hurts. I hope you can find comfort and peace.
I suspect the church really hasn’t given much thought to your situation. From a historical perspective, you have children, they are supposed to provide for you in your old age. Social security and pensions are new things, way too new for the church to have fully grasp yet. I suspect you are supposed to live alone for the rest of your life, at least in the sense of having a man around.
Pensions and retirement are not “fair”. Consider them as an insurance policy. A man has this insurance policy for his old age, or disability. When he dies, or goes back to work, the insurance policy may stop paying. You are not the only one who has found this to have problems. The problem is that social security and pensions are not entirely your, or your late husband’s, money. Continuing to collect a pension when you are living with someone is stealing if the pension is supposed to terminate when you remarry.
Sadly, I don’t think you will have the kind of sexual experience with your new man that you had with your husband, if you choose to have sex. You are older, your responses are different now. You will have the burden of having sex outside of your faith if you choose to have sex outside of marriage. The potential loss of income is also something you must worry about. Having this man in your life makes you think about sex. Good for you to have found him. I am sure he is a source of joy to you. God doesn’t want you to roll over and die just because your husband did.
But, as you and your husband made God real in your marriage, so can your boyfriend and you make God real in your life now. This is not something to run away from, rather it is something to run to. I wish I could find that.
So, you have some choices to make. But didn’t you make some tough choices when you married your husband?
If you choose to have sex with your new friend I doubt God will send you to hell. I know He will not stop loving you. If you want to keep your reputation and have sex with him, you will not keep it. When you bring him to Christmas dinner your family will know you are having sex, they just might have the tact never to bring it up. If you don’t bring him to Christmas dinner what message are you sending to him?
Are you ready to love him above your children?
So much stuff you must deal with. I am really sorry your husband died. If he was still alive you wouldn’t be dealing with all this. I keep searching for an alternative to getting married. I am 54 and a widower. But I cannot find a way to really love a woman and not be married to her. Everything else is a compromise I am not willing to make. I think it comes down to the idea that Christ loves the Church as I am supposed to love my wife. I want to love my wife as best as I can.
Having sex is a really sticky subject. You won’t get any good advice here. This web site equate sex to an exchange of bodily fluids. Actually, sex is so much more. Consider this, become engaged. Set a wedding date for a year away. Then, today and until you are married, treat one another as you are married, just do not have sex and live together. Find as much comfort in each others arms as you can. Make memories of how you love one another and love God. Do things together, as a couple to define your relationship, without sex. During this time you are really setting the standard for how you will live after you are married.
Having a sacramental marriage end really hurts. I hope you can find comfort and peace.
I suspect the church really hasn’t given much thought to your situation. From a historical perspective, you have children, they are supposed to provide for you in your old age. Social security and pensions are new things, way too new for the church to have fully grasp yet. I suspect you are supposed to live alone for the rest of your life, at least in the sense of having a man around.
Pensions and retirement are not “fair”. Consider them as an insurance policy. A man has this insurance policy for his old age, or disability. When he dies, or goes back to work, the insurance policy may stop paying. You are not the only one who has found this to have problems. The problem is that social security and pensions are not entirely your, or your late husband’s, money. Continuing to collect a pension when you are living with someone is stealing if the pension is supposed to terminate when you remarry.
Sadly, I don’t think you will have the kind of sexual experience with your new man that you had with your husband, if you choose to have sex. You are older, your responses are different now. You will have the burden of having sex outside of your faith if you choose to have sex outside of marriage. The potential loss of income is also something you must worry about. Having this man in your life makes you think about sex. Good for you to have found him. I am sure he is a source of joy to you. God doesn’t want you to roll over and die just because your husband did.
But, as you and your husband made God real in your marriage, so can your boyfriend and you make God real in your life now. This is not something to run away from, rather it is something to run to. I wish I could find that.
So, you have some choices to make. But didn’t you make some tough choices when you married your husband?
If you choose to have sex with your new friend I doubt God will send you to hell. I know He will not stop loving you. If you want to keep your reputation and have sex with him, you will not keep it. When you bring him to Christmas dinner your family will know you are having sex, they just might have the tact never to bring it up. If you don’t bring him to Christmas dinner what message are you sending to him?
Are you ready to love him above your children?
So much stuff you must deal with. I am really sorry your husband died. If he was still alive you wouldn’t be dealing with all this. I keep searching for an alternative to getting married. I am 54 and a widower. But I cannot find a way to really love a woman and not be married to her. Everything else is a compromise I am not willing to make. I think it comes down to the idea that Christ loves the Church as I am supposed to love my wife. I want to love my wife as best as I can.
Having sex is a really sticky subject. You won’t get any good advice here. This web site equate sex to an exchange of bodily fluids. Actually, sex is so much more. Consider this, become engaged. Set a wedding date for a year away. Then, today and until you are married, treat one another as you are married, just do not have sex and live together. Find as much comfort in each others arms as you can. Make memories of how you love one another and love God. Do things together, as a couple to define your relationship, without sex. During this time you are really setting the standard for how you will live after you are married.
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