Wife has given up

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Thank you PeacefulFamily. Your comments are spot on. I did buy her flowers when she returned from one of her baseball trips, so I could buy her another bouquet. As it turns out, she has not had her lawyer send anything to my lawyer yet. She said she can’t live the way we’ve been living these last 6 months, but is scared about getting a divorce, and still refuses marriage counseling. I’ve told her I’m not in control of the situation, she is.

I’m realizing that while I thought I was in a loveless marriage, I might be wrong if I’M giving the love, even if she is not.
 
You haven’t failed so long as you persevere (that doesn’t mean “win”). The best thing you can do for them is to draw close to God. Also, fight for their rights throughout the ordeal.
I couldn’t have said it better. 👍
Keep meeting with your priest, live for your children, persevere. You will know what to do after another 6 months to a year. Believe me, I’ve been through it. It took me 1 1/2 years to make my final decision. I wavered back and forth, but when I made the decision, I knew it was the right one. I trusted in God, and he led the way.

I really am praying for you. :grouphug:
 
Thank you PeacefulFamily. Your comments are spot on. I did buy her flowers when she returned from one of her baseball trips, so I could buy her another bouquet. As it turns out, she has not had her lawyer send anything to my lawyer yet. She said she can’t live the way we’ve been living these last 6 months, but is scared about getting a divorce, and still refuses marriage counseling. I’ve told her I’m not in control of the situation, she is.

I’m realizing that while I thought I was in a loveless marriage, I might be wrong if I’M giving the love, even if she is not.
it’s more than flowers. You need to communicate in the way she feels love. For some people, it may be in your words/affirmations, or chores/what you do or a loving touch/massage. It may in fact be flowers or other gifts.

There is a book called The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman. It talks about how we experience love in different ways. One of the keys is to find out how she experiences love (hint: it’s probably also how she shows love to others) and show her love in those ways.
 
Hmmm, if my husband ‘coerced’ me into having sex, i’d be angry too, and wouldn’t think twice about tossing him out. Say what you will about ‘wifely submission’ but you have no right to coerce ANYBODY into sex.

You reap what you sow.
 
Hmmm, if my husband ‘coerced’ me into having sex, i’d be angry too, and wouldn’t think twice about tossing him out. Say what you will about ‘wifely submission’ but you have no right to coerce ANYBODY into sex.

You reap what you sow.
That’s harsh. He’s seen the error of his ways and is trying to change himself.

Also, he never said he “coerced her.”
 
Hmmm, if my husband ‘coerced’ me into having sex, i’d be angry too, and wouldn’t think twice about tossing him out. Say what you will about ‘wifely submission’ but you have no right to coerce ANYBODY into sex.

You reap what you sow.
:confused:

that statement is, at best, tangential to the conversation. It does nothing to help the OP
 
That’s harsh. He’s seen the error of his ways and is trying to change himself.

Also, he never said he “coerced her.”
Actually he did. Post #8 “She also feels that I’ve coerced her into having sex with me.” If she feels like that, then it was coercion.

And it is relevant. Maybe not helpful, but it does give insight into the wife’s position. She’s angry. With some reason. It isn’t stuff that is solved quickly.
 
Actually he did. Post #8 “She also feels that I’ve coerced her into having sex with me.” If she feels like that, then it was coercion.

And it is relevant. Maybe not helpful, but it does give insight into the wife’s position. She’s angry. With some reason. It isn’t stuff that is solved quickly.
You are right. I stand corrected.

From the context of the post, it seems tucdoc was unaware that he had coerced her until she told him at a later time. To me it looked like his apology was for having made her feel that way.
 
Actually he did. Post #8 “She also feels that I’ve coerced her into having sex with me.” If she feels like that, then it was coercion.

And it is relevant. Maybe not helpful, but it does give insight into the wife’s position. She’s angry. With some reason. It isn’t stuff that is solved quickly.
Umm…not quite so simple. Maybe. But maybe not.

First off, they’re married. The assumption is that sex is something she wants to have with him, generally speaking. If she said, “No, I don’t want to” and he bullied her and he knew it, that’s coercion. If she said, “No, I don’t want to”, he talked her into it, she let him know later that she felt bullied, and he did it again after he knew how she felt about that tactic, that is coercion. Still, it is not required that a spouse trying to initiate sex drop their request at the first sign of a cool reception to the idea. That is not coercion, per se. Assuming that the permission to speak freely does exist (not always a workable assumption for man or wife, and sometimes for neither), then the spouse that is not interested does need to say so. In marriage, it is possible to give consent to any number of things, from sex to remodelling, and then only say later that it was not “really” freely given, but it isn’t fair. Otherwise, the spouse “getting his way” would have to give the third degree to be certain that the consent is real. Who wants to live like that? Nevertheless, retroactive withdrawal of consent is far from uncommon. (But yes, “high pressure sales” are far from uncommon, either. Also not fair.)

More to the point, though, it is very common for us to “re-write the story” later down the line, particularly when we’re trying to rationalize the reasons why our affection towards our spouse has cooled. It is the most natural thing in the world to try to make the inevitable ups and downs of our affections and desires into something that is our spouse’s fault. If we expected to always have the ardor of our wedding day until we die, we are in for a rude awakening. It is not unusual to grasp at straws to blame that on our spouse.

This kind of “re-writing” goes on with everything in a failing marriage. Once you start finding the man you once loved contemptible, you try to convince yourself that you always found him contemptible. You will take little eccentricities and blow them all out of proportion, then imagine that he does these things specifically in order to be annoying. Unfortunately, once things really go downhill, this “re-writing of history” is predictably mutual. You know that two married people can give an account of their marriage so different that you cannot believe it was in fact the same marriage…yet you don’t think either is lying. “Re-writing” is the culprit. (C’mon: we know this. We’ve all done it.)

This was in fact, one of the methods Screwtape suggested for sowing domestic hatreds:
When two humans have lived together for many years it usually happens that each has tones of voice and expressions of face which are almost unendurably irritating to the other. Work on that. Bring fully into the consciousness of your patient that particular lift of his mother’s eyebrows which he learned to dislike in the nursery, and let him think how much he dislikes it. Let him assume that she knows how annoying it is and does it to annoy—if you know your job he will not notice the immense improbability of the assumption. And, of course, never let him suspect that he has tones and looks which similarly annoy her. As he cannot see or hear himself, this is easily managed.”

Trust me, there is a tempter or two in Tucdoc’s story, be sure of that.
 
Now that sex has become a focal point, I’ll clarify my viewpoint. Desire discrepancy happens, and in our case may be peri-menopausal and/or stress related. I had sent her links to this topic from our diocese website. I’ve apologized for being insistent when she was not interested, but again, she won’t let it go. One aspect she really resents is my requesting sex when she would prefer to stay up late cleaning up the kitchen or other rooms in the house. It seemed as our priorities were diverging, which frustrated me as I felt the kitchen could wait and I’m O.K. with it not being spotless. To me, times for intimacy are (actually now WERE) much more limited than times for cleaning the house.
 
TucDoc,

You are obviously in severe emotional pain. You probably know that by sharing in the sufferings of Christ, your suffering can be of huge benefit to others. I have endured a lot of suffering in my life, and it consoles me to offer it to Christ for the conversion of my brother.

I was wondering if, just for today, you could offer your suffering, in union with Christ’s suffering on the cross, for my little friend Marion. Marion is 12 years old, and goes into an 8-hour surgery today, Friday (now) at 10am Central time. It’s major back surgery for scoliosis, and there could be severe complications from the surgery.

By giving your suffering to Christ for Marion, you too will benefit greatly.
 
Now that sex has become a focal point, I’ll clarify my viewpoint. Desire discrepancy happens, and in our case may be peri-menopausal and/or stress related. I had sent her links to this topic from our diocese website. I’ve apologized for being insistent when she was not interested, but again, she won’t let it go. One aspect she really resents is my requesting sex when she would prefer to stay up late cleaning up the kitchen or other rooms in the house. It seemed as our priorities were diverging, which frustrated me as I felt the kitchen could wait and I’m O.K. with it not being spotless. To me, times for intimacy are (actually now WERE) much more limited than times for cleaning the house.
I hope you didn’t mean it quite like that. No one could stand to have a sex life, or even a total amount of “couple time” that takes up as much of their time as the time it takes to keep a house clean and do the other work of running a household. It is as if she were to complain that your job is more important than intimacy with her because you think there are times you have to go to work instead of spend time with her. That wouldn’t be fair, would it? It gives dignity to her work when you give it the same priority that you give your own.

I don’t know, but I would make a heavy bet on this: You may not have known it, but this dispute was not about the priority of cleaning the house compared to the priority of intimacy. From her point of view, I bet it was either about a) the value of her time and her plans or b) control issues in general. This second part may really come as a surprise: If she feels guilty about how she uses her time, the hidden defensiveness about it can make this even more of a sore spot! Watch out for that minefield, if you’re dealing with someone who has issues in managing their own time. The more they worry that they don’t use it well, the more defensive they will be if you seem not to value their time, either. Why do I say this in this case? Because I know if I’m up late cleaning house, it is either becaues I am buried in too much work or else I dinked around earlier in the day when I should have been cleaning. If I’m finally on a roll at midnight, I’m going to be happy just until I’m reminded again that I would be free if I’d gotten on the stick sooner. (In defense: Late night time is usually uninterrupted time. With kids, it can come to seem very precious time for getting work done.)

At any rate, I will bet it was about whether she felt that her plans for what she was going to do with her time were important to you, or if she felt she was expected to just drop everything for whatever you happened to want. When you are the one whose time is deemed “flexible”, then trust me, that can come to seem like “less valuable”. Having your time treated like an expendible commodity is not an arousing feeling. Or she may just have used the cleaning thing as a way to exert control without being open about it.

I don’t just say this as someone with a PhD who is a SAHM. My mother felt the same way, and she and my dad both had high school educations. She found it very frustrating when she had something planned and he just waltzed up and expected her to happily drop everything for whatever it was he had planned, and this was true even if he was proposing something more fun. Why? Because he wasn’t going to be around to do whatever it was that she was postponing. She didn’t see it as an offer to spend fun time together. She saw it as evidence that he was oblivious of the fact that she did in fact plan her time. What she wanted was for him to come to her in advance and say, “I’d like to do this; when would be a good time for you?” Then when she told him how packed her schedule was, he would have been husband-of-the-year if he had said: “Tell me what housework you have planned for tomorrow night, then, and I’ll do that and tomorrow we’ll both be free to have some fun.” (My dad and grandpa kind of did this. They would say: I’ll make the kids do that, then you’ll be free to have some fun. :D) Being willing to do a SAHMs work says that the work is both important and not beneath you. That is huge.

Seriously, though, for those out there who have this problem, I’d suggest looking for a solution that shows you put a value on her time and her attachment to plans she has already made, even more than if those plans were your own, when making joint plans for time together. That is very endearing.
 
PeacefulFamily, as a parent of an 11 and a 13 year old, I know that I would want as much support as possible to help one of my children if they had a serious medical condition. I will offer up today’s suffering for Marion.

EasterJoy, I will tell you that my wife does have issues regarding time management. While I do value her work at home, she has a very flexible schedule. I will push back on this issues. Realistically, couples need time together, which can only happen at certain times of the day or certain days of the week. As a SAHM, there are responsibilities of caring for the home and caring for the members of that home. Without a significant commitment outside of the home, this should be less stressful than for those who work outside of the home. She does have more time than if she worked, so it may be a time management issue. During a homily our priest said love is spelled T-I-M-E. Less time, less interest, ultimately less love. I have felt my requests for time, and the timing of those requests, have been reasonable, so this could be a point of discussion.
 
PeacefulFamily, as a parent of an 11 and a 13 year old, I know that I would want as much support as possible to help one of my children if they had a serious medical condition. I will offer up today’s suffering for Marion.

EasterJoy, I will tell you that my wife does have issues regarding time management. While I do value her work at home, she has a very flexible schedule. I will push back on this issues. Realistically, couples need time together, which can only happen at certain times of the day or certain days of the week. As a SAHM, there are responsibilities of caring for the home and caring for the members of that home. Without a significant commitment outside of the home, this should be less stressful than for those who work outside of the home. She does have more time than if she worked, so it may be a time management issue. During a homily our priest said love is spelled T-I-M-E. Less time, less interest, ultimately less love. I have felt my requests for time, and the timing of those requests, have been reasonable, so this could be a point of discussion.
Perhaps you can do some of those chores with her when you are home?
 
EasterJoy, I will tell you that my wife does have issues regarding time management. While I do value her work at home, she has a very flexible schedule. I will push back on this issues. Realistically, couples need time together, which can only happen at certain times of the day or certain days of the week. As a SAHM, there are responsibilities of caring for the home and caring for the members of that home. Without a significant commitment outside of the home, this should be less stressful than for those who work outside of the home. She does have more time than if she worked, so it may be a time management issue. During a homily our priest said love is spelled T-I-M-E. Less time, less interest, ultimately less love. I have felt my requests for time, and the timing of those requests, have been reasonable, so this could be a point of discussion.
I guess I would just suggest making time management and carving out time for intimacy two separate issues…by giving your own time in the interest of intimacy, if you need to. Intimacy is rarely achieved by complaining, even if the complaint is legitimate.

Yes, you’d think that SAHMs have more time than moms who work. The truth is, mostly moms who work for a paycheck are way over-worked and still have to do without some of the jobs that SAHMs do because they can. The job expands to fill the time you have to give it. As for stress, SAHMs also have less mental stimulation and adult conversation and get less respect for what they do. It is a fact of life. Staying home and getting no paycheck and stammering for an answer that people will like when asked “And what do you do?” (or, more commonly and worse yet: “Do you work?”) is stressful. Go over to the parenting section, and you’ll get an earful. If your wife feels frustration and resentment, she is not alone.

I’m saying if you show a respect for her time–even if she does not–you show a respect for her, just as you would show respect for her if you treated a woman with respect when she did not dress in a way that showed self-respect. So if you want to find a time for intimacy, give up time in order to make up for any shortfall she is feeling. If nothing else, if you cheerfully help her catch up as an act of affection, she’ll have no pretext for pleading poverty when you ask for some of her time. The date will be on your dime, so to speak. Paid for with a smile, it is a difficult offer to turn down.

We have a saying in our house: “In any crisis, the first most important order of business is to fully assess blame.” We say it because it is total nonsense and yet totally the way we all act when the wheels come off. When there is a fire, you put the fire out. You worry about how it got started later. If you want to build intimacy, you have to let go of the temptation to decide whose fault it is that there isn’t enough of it. A good marriage, after all, is not fair. It is good. If you think about love for any time at all, your realize that it cannot be both.
 
Last night my wife said she has all the intentions of moving forward with the divorce. Her lawyer is apparently creating a proposal, for which she (we, me) will pay a retainer. This is for real.

Also last PM Thanksgiving came up. We will often spend it with my mom’s family in San Diego. This will be awkward if we are there with family while we as a family are breaking up. I’m not sure how to handle this. Is it already time for us to celebrate holidays apart?
 
Last night my wife said she has all the intentions of moving forward with the divorce. Her lawyer is apparently creating a proposal, for which she (we, me) will pay a retainer. This is for real.

Also last PM Thanksgiving came up. We will often spend it with my mom’s family in San Diego. This will be awkward if we are there with family while we as a family are breaking up. I’m not sure how to handle this. Is it already time for us to celebrate holidays apart?
I think you’ve known that it was for real for a long time. I think you knew that joint assets would pay for the divorce, too. Consider the women who would be at the mercy of their husbands if the wives consented to give up their jobs to take care of the children, if it were otherwise. As you go through this, realize that you are paying for the sake of women like that, so they can have legal recourse to save themselves and their children from an abusive marriage.

It is time for your wife to agree to the counselling that is going to make sorting out holidays and tuition and all of that possible, for the good of your children. She may want to get rid of you as a husband, but she is going to find that you will always be the father of her children. Time to pay the piper, girl. Otherwise, you’re already planning to ruin the weddings and all of the holidays of your children.

If you haven’t talked about these issues with a lawyer, please do not delay doing so. Your children’s future really is at stake.
 
Last night my wife said she has all the intentions of moving forward with the divorce. Her lawyer is apparently creating a proposal, for which she (we, me) will pay a retainer. This is for real.

Also last PM Thanksgiving came up. We will often spend it with my mom’s family in San Diego. This will be awkward if we are there with family while we as a family are breaking up. I’m not sure how to handle this. Is it already time for us to celebrate holidays apart?
I think your statement about YOU paying for it speaks a bit to What EasterJoy is saying about valuing her time. You don’t value it. It doesn’t even have a monitary value. But it does. How much would it cost for child care, a home cook, someone to do laundry, clean the house, tutor your children after school while you are at work. What if your wife disappeared when your oldest was 4? Would you have the house you’re in right now? Or would you have to had scale down back then?

Do you not choose to save money in your business by having someone in-house on a fixed salary do a job rather than outsource? Doesn’t that add value to your biz? Do you end up with an employee asking for a raise? It’s EXACTLY the same at home with a SAHM. Please keep in mind that a SAHM allows your $$ to work harder. And therefore she has infact EARNED her keep.

And sadly, you’ve made it clear that perhaps more often than not, sex isn’t so much about couple intimacy but your release. And so you’re kind of asking for overtime thinking you don’t have to pay overtime. And perhaps I’m reading more into it. But If I finally caught a break to clean the kitchen after the kids went down, and my husband acted as though he just needed a proper reseptacle for sperm… yeah… forget it. He could offer to help me fly through the kitchen, and THEN we could have some mutual fun/love.

We have a rule in our house. WE are parents 24/7. We both have day time jobs. While DH is at work it’s my job to do a whole bunch of stuff. But when he comes home, there’s STILL home life to manage. And we both share in those hours. It’s not just me for the remainder of the day. Granted I do the middle of the night stuff so he’s coherent at work. As yeah, I can afford it a bit more to stumble through the house cleaning…

Regarding Thankgiving. Why does it have to be awkward? Or does the whole family know your business? And they are going to treat your wife with disrespect? If that’s the case, have dinner at home. Your kids don’t need their last family dinner to be fully tense.

I also agree with the family counceling… Divorce does not have to rip your children apart. That’s a CHOICE… a MUTUAL choice…
 
Last night my wife said she has all the intentions of moving forward with the divorce.
TucDoc,

I am so sorry to hear this. Please know that while your world is falling apart, God really is in control, and He WILL carry you through this. Please don’t doubt God’s immense love for you at this time. There is nothing that you can do, or have done, that will change His love for you.
 
Her lawyer is apparently creating a proposal, for which she (we, me) will pay a retainer.
It’s important that there are laws to enable abused women to legally divorce by forcing the abusive husband to pay for the divorce.

I don’t believe you are so greedy that you’re complaining about having to pay for the divorce. It is only human, and right, for us to only pay for things that we believe in. Your wife is breaking your heart and your world is falling apart. You don’t want the divorce. The very fact that this is REALLY happening in your marriage is psychologically devastating for you. It is only natural for you to feel resentful about having to pay for a divorce that you DON’T WANT.

NOBODY wants to pay for something that they believe is fundamentally unjust. As a SAHM, of course your wife’s work has $$ value. So, let’s assume half your money is hers. So, I’ll rephrase this: NOBODY wants to HALF-pay for something that they believe is fundamentally unjust.

Of course you’ll “half-pay” for the divorce. That’s not the issue. The point is that your whole world is being turned upside down, and you need support.

Other posters, please be considerate. How would you feel in TucDoc’s situation?
 
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