Wife needing to go out to clubs and bars with co-workers?

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I disagree that this is irrelevant. It’s quite true that a bar isn’t the only place the wife has been contacting men, but I think that you and other posters are overlooking a couple of points:
  1. The OP is correct that his wife’s spending time with divorced friends is a problem. Divorce is somewhat contagious among peer groups, even without infidelity.
https://www.hechtfamilylaw.com/blog...orced-people-are-more-likely-to-divorce.shtml

A group of divorcees sitting around talking about how much better off they are without their husbands doesn’t sound like the best peer group for helping the OP’s wife stay in her marriage.
  1. This marriage will not survive without the wife’s true repentance, and part of that repentance is giving up activities that have led to sin. People don’t have a problem with a wife having Covenant Eyes software installed when her husband has a problem with porn. The wife is saying, essentially, that her own “good time” is more important to her than repairing the marriage. Rebuilding broken trust takes time and lots of good-faith efforts by the guilty party.
And what’s with all the criticism of the OP asking his wife to consider what God wants? She clearly hasn’t been, to the detriment of her soul. If I were heading away from God, I really, really hope my husband would, you know, alert me to it.
 
And what’s with all the criticism of the OP asking his wife to consider what God wants? She clearly hasn’t been, to the detriment of her soul. If I were heading away from God, I really, really hope my husband would, you know, alert me to it.
Because it sounds like a parent admonishing their child rather than the normal way a husband and a wife get along as equals, and it’s clearly not working very well if the OP is on here asking us how he can get this through his wife’s head that he doesn’t want her hanging out with divorcees and going to bars as she’s just not listening.

You can sit around and justify his behavior all day long - it’s not going to make it work any better. The wife has pretty much already blown off his concerns and is making it clear she is going to continue doing what she wants.

So, he has the choice of putting up with her behavior, ending the marriage, or taking a different strategy.
 
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Frankly, the wife’s response sounds like a teenager–“Youuu won’t let me have any fun!”

I agree that it sure doesn’t look like the wife is going to behave reasonably, and that the marriage is moribund. This doesn’t mean that the OP’s attempts are wrong–it sounds like he’s been making valiant efforts to save the marriage.
 
B@Ap08211991

I wouldn’t change my earlier posted suggestions, now that we know more, but I definitely would add to them, since this is looking more and more like a long good-bye.

If you were my son, I’d tell you to see a good attorney and do what he/she says in regard to finances and documentation, then do all the positive things that we have suggested in order to try to save your marriage.

What, besides moving into different living quarters, is different now than before your move? Was the distance so great that she felt isolated from family and former friends? Can you find the catalyst(s)?

For together-type activities, what about a weekend camping trip? Or in a state park lodge? Friends in their 50’s went roller skating a couple of months ago, still laugh about it, and are urging others to join them.

We’ve given lots of ideas. I sincerely hope that some of them will help turn things around for you. Please keep us posted. We’re praying for you and your family.
 
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Arrange a sitter for date night once a month. You need to show her that you find her exciting and interesting.
We do date nights and a lot of other fun things together like conventions and I always tell her how much fun I have when doing anything with her. Honestly doing anything with her makes it fun to me.
 
Your wife may be empty and searching. St. Augustine said “Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.” She may need peace in her soul, instead she’s seeking temporary satisfaction in alcohol and attention from other men. These things give pleasure for a few hours then she’s empty again. She needs Jesus Christ, He can fill her and free her from the mess she’s created.

A husbands prayers are very powerful. Pray for her.
I am praying for her and praying with her. She has said she wants me to help her do God’s will and said she is glad that I am stepping up to the religious leader of our household. Yet she flips out every time I ask her to think what God’s will is for her and if it is in bars, clubs, or other sinful areas that have led her into committing sins against her marriage. No matter how nice or well I treat her and do things around the house. She still finds things to be discouraged about and if she can’t go out because she realizes it isn’t God’s will she still flips out and says I am an A-hole and have been all week. We have talked to our priest but I am thinking it might be time for me to move forward with my life. I am trying to be patient and kind but everyday I am still treated like poo. No matter what I do. It is just hard cause I have 2 little girls and if I move forward I am moving back where we use to live with my parents because there is more opportunity there to continue my education. But i don’t want to leave my girls. I really am just lost. If she was remorseful and trying everyday I wouldn’t feel so horrible.
 
The issue of your initial post is not the real issue.

Your real issue and question is this. My cheating wife will not reform or protect our marriage by not doing things that lead to temptation and untrustworthiness and no matter how it makes me feel would rather have her “freedom”
 
It has been my observation that most problems are associated with an excessive amount of alchohol.
 
Perhaps change the way that you phrase things. Bars are not “sinful places”. Bars are morally neutral. People choose to commit sins at bars that they will also choose to commit at the Country Club golf course or at the Habitat Build or in the living room while online.

“Don’t go to ladies night because it is not God’s will” would cause me to bow up, and my husband and I have a great marriage. God’s will is that she go to heaven. God’s will is that you go to heaven.

God does not micromanage our social calendar, so, my first advice is to drop that line from the vocab, and that is in no way what being the “spiritual head” means. Maybe some of this “headship” protestant thinking has crept in?

Women cheat because someone made them feel sexy, smart, wanted, treasured, fun, desired. (Men cheat from other things, most often sexual urge and availability of a willing partner) Because of this difference, we cannot understand why our spouse cheated as the reasons are not even what we would think of.

Have you done the “love languages” book? It could be that you are showing love in a language that is foreign to your wife.

When my husband and I were separated years ago, a wise person told me “we women have been conditioned all of our lives by books and movies that the man who really loves us will know instinctively what we need/want. That is a lie. Your husband needs you to tell him what you need/want.” This is very, very hard for most women to do because we have been sooooooo conditioned.

The things you are doing out of goodwill and a desire to heal are not filling her tank.

You say that you “do things around the house”. Going out on a limb to say that is not at all her love language. Unless you guys have decided that the housework is all on her, the fact is, you live in the house, so that is simply part of living there. Not to sound harsh, but, asking for “credit” for things that are supposed to be done anyway can be a big turn off. It can sound like “I am doing women’s work and you do not appreciate it!!”.

Can you hire a cleaning service to come in once a week to do a big clean? This way, since you both work, that major chore is not going to be a big deal anymore.

What did you do when you were dating your wife? Re-discover those things, the things that started your story. Sit down and to the love languages worksheets with her. Woo her.
 
Even I as a single man can see the elephant in the room no one else in this thread is saying: the OP’s wife has lost her respect for him. However that happened is between the two of them, but the issue of respect is central to the marriage for without it, the marriage is done. Adultery is one of the most disrespectful acts a spouse can do to the other spouse. It is one spouse having contempt for the other.

It is clear that bars and clubs have provided a fertile environment for the OP’s wife to continue to exercise that disrespect for him and her refusal to give them up is symbolic of the contempt she continues to hold for him. If she wants him to trust her again, she needs to give up the bars and clubs or else only go with him. As long as she won’t do that, she is in no way, shape or form serious about the marriage. In the case of adultery, the OP’s request is totally reasonable.

As always, I pray for their children.
 
Yes, this really stinks for them. The best outcome would be repentance and restoration, but this isn’t looking probable.
 
@Ap08211991
@TheLittleLady

OP, we’re all in your corner, wanting security in your marriage.

After The Little Lady mentioned “The Five Love Languages,” by Gary Chapman, I spent a few hours reading some of the 12,509 reviews that averaged 4.8 stars out of a possible 5. Please read that book, and, if possible, with your wife; it might be the turnkey you need. At the very least, you’ll both learn more about interpreting others and interacting with them. It’s clear that what you’ve both been doing isn’t working for either of you.

You’ve mentioned the negative impact of her friends. Encouraging your wife to seek another shop would eliminate some of the influence from them. Is there any way that she could start her own shop, if going to another shop isn’t in the cards?

I’m certainly not saying that you should just give up and separate or divorce, but do protect your interests. See an attorney and document what occurs. You’ve not mentioned how your wife cares for your girls. Documentation could help you win custody if the two of you fail to resolve your differences.

Prayers and best wishes for your situation to turn around. Please keep us posted.
 
I am not talking about use in moderation. I am talking about abuse. I every instant of sexual abuse I have read or heard about it is almost always associated with excessive use of alchohol.
 
In real life, I know people who use alcohol as an excuse or way to rationalize what happens “but, I was drinking and I did not really know what I was doing”.

In some people alcohol use lowers inhibitions, low inhibitions do not mean a complete loss of faculties. A complete loss of oneself from alcohol use is extremely rare and often linked to either reactions with medications the person is taking or using other substances like rohypnal, acid, ecstasy, etc. in conjunction with alcohol. From alcohol alone the body can only take so much before it vomits or the person loses consciousness.
 
I am just at a loss when it comes to being able to talk to her without her feeling attacked. I literally have tried every way we have been told and she still finds it as being attacked. Also, in the past whenever she felt like I was being too controlling because we sucked at communication. She would go and do the thing I was worried about and trying to prevent her from doing.
With apologies for being perhaps a bit too direct (thinking in my second language with a horrible headache at 3 a.m. right now), and sorry to break it to you this way, but let’s actually be direct — she needs counselling, by which I don’t mean a random dude with the word ‘counsellor’ on his brass plate, I mean a real therapist. There’s no beating around the bush, she has serious issues. I’m not going to try and tell you what issues, because I’m not qualified, but she’s in need of serious professional attention.

Just going and doing the destructive thing you were worrying about just to mark her independence, as well as complaining about control all the time whenever you didn’t like something in her impulsive and probably quite amoral behaviour or patterns, that’s just not the way an adult is expected to act, before we even start talking about Catholic wives and mothers. Counselling should be your next stop.

Normally, I would say preventing her from going out to bars with friends and co-workers would be extreme and indeed controlling. However, ‘bad things’ having happened changes things completely and turns the table around. You wouldn’t have been in your right expecting your wife to replicate and obey your private vow (extracurriculars like that need to be absolutely voluntary), but you have every right to expect your wife to avoid near occasion of sin against your marriage.

No matter how she may want to put it, getting intoxicated to the point of becoming more susceptible to temptations of infidelity is not just her own private matter, it’s something that involves you as well and involves the ‘us’ between you and her.

Considering she’s your wife and you have a responsibility to help her reach salvation, you would be in your right to be concerned also about her exposing herself to any near occasion of mortal sin, including drunkenness itself if rising to the level of a mortal sin. (I’m presuming the ‘bad things’ aren’t trivial matters.)

People with self-control issues, who can’t or won’t control their behaviour like an adult would, tend to complain about feeling controlled, so don’t allow that to get to you too much, don’t let it bring you down, unless you’re actually doing something that a reasonable person would deem controlling, even knowing of what has happened in the past.

Of course, being asked not to go to bars feels like child treatment, but in the short term such restrictions are necessary for adults facing certain problems, which she is. It’s because of her problem, not because of her as a person. It’s the same with people struggling with addictions. You don’t leave an unsupervised alcoholic in a liquor store, not until recovery (if ever).
 
How often do you tell her you love her? That she’s bright and funny and attractive?
I’m sorry, but asking how how often the husband tells the wife she’s bright and funny and attractive, is not a proportionate response to the wife’s drinking problem leading to ‘bad things’ linked with the company of friends: ‘who don’t believe in the commitment that marriage is,’ i.e. presumably something offensive to fidelity. Which, as the OP’s later comment shows, was the correct assumption.

Serious drinking issues and fidelity issues are a more serious matter than someone feeling controller or verbally attacked or unduly restrained in the choice of leisure activities, or even feeling not trusted.

Wives, just like husbands, have obligations that aren’t conditional upon receiving enough unconditional affirmation (let alone such things as being told one is bright, funny or attractive irrespectively of objectively being or not being that — false compliments are lies, however well intentioned they might be) or having all needs met and all ‘feels’ in order.

I believe the above would be perfectly clear to anyone if the Opening Poster were a woman concerned about her husband going to bars, getting drunk and ending up doing bad things and then complaining about feeling controlled by the despairing wife.

I don’t want to be combative, but there is some blatant sexism in this thread in the treatment the OP has been given, solely on account of his sex, which would have been radically different if the sexes had been inverted. I presume many posters will no longer stand by their previous comments now after the OP’s new revelations, but I still couldn’t leave this without a comment.
In real life, I know people who use alcohol as an excuse or way to rationalize what happens “but, I was drinking and I did not really know what I was doing”.

In some people alcohol use lowers inhibitions, low inhibitions do not mean a complete loss of faculties. A complete loss of oneself from alcohol use is extremely rare and often linked to either reactions with medications the person is taking or using other substances like rohypnal, acid, ecstasy, etc. in conjunction with alcohol. From alcohol alone the body can only take so much before it vomits or the person loses consciousness.
Yes, the expected normal reaction to alcohol, if there is such a thing, is that once you’re incapable of much judgement, you’re also incapable of much action. However, pathological drinkers develop altered reactions at some point, similar to those harder substances or mental illness. Especially if the matter involves tempations they already struggle to resist even while sober, alcohol lowering existing exhibitions even slightly can make all the difference that is needed in order for the temptation to succeed, hence it becomes the decisive factor.
 
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I’m sorry, but asking how how often the husband tells the wife she’s bright and funny and attractive, is not a proportionate response to the wife’s drinking problem leading to ‘bad things’ linked with the company of friends: ‘who don’t believe in the commitment that marriage is,’ i.e. presumably something offensive to fidelity.
If your wife has a drinking problem and/or an attraction to other men, she’s still your wife.
And not providing the affirmation she needs is going to just make it worse.

Many people go out looking for attention outside their marriage because they are not getting the sort of positive and/or romantic interactions they want at home. While this is not the only reason people cheat, it is a big one and you’re showing a blatant lack of understanding of women when you call it “sexism” that a woman brought this point up.

Men also often go out looking for female companionship if their wife is not telling them they are bright and funny and attractive at home. People want to feel valued and appreciated and thought attractive by their spouse. It’s not rocket science.
 
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Also the sanctity and inviolability of marriage are the central point of the problem of cheating, not the cheater’s unfulfilled emotional needs or especially ego needs, whether the cheater is male or female (and equal rules apply to both). In other words, cheating is about the cheater violating the vows, not about the cheater being the true victim because of not having some emotional needs met — especially by faux compliments (by not hearing enough of specific affirmations without having any regard whatsoever to their objective truth or falsehood, which is immoral like any lie).

Plus, you wouldn’t be talking about lacking affirmation etc. if the cheater in this story were male; instead you would probably be going on about how marriage is inviolable and not hearing enough compliments from the wife doesn’t justify the man in cheating, and how fidelity is not about his ego (and affirmation) but about the vows. This is what you would be saying if the sexes were inverted in this story. I actually challenge you openly on this. And yes, it’s sexism.
 
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