Wife Went Astray...

[Katie1723]

otm:

Yep to all of that. To those who find that the sin is only the wife’s, They are completely “dissing” the fact that it takes two to make a marriage.

It can be argued that she married him, and knew what his job was and what it entailed; but that misses the fact that marriage is a dynamic, not one that is cold and calculated, but one that involves flesh and blood, with all its foibles and weaknesses.

I suspect that neither of them were competent in communicating what was going on inside, and what that was doing to their relationship.

The guy was trying to make a living ! The only thing she was making was “whoopie” with somene she wasn’t married to.
~ Kathy ~

 

[Writer]

otm:

Well, lets look at a circumstance where it might make a difference if the victim acknowledges their own fault:

Suppose for the moment that the perpatrator was not predisposed to adultery (common jargon, they were not someone with the morals of an alley cat). In general (and yes, I know there are exceptions), women do not seek a lover for sex; they seek someone for understanding. The old saw still holds true for the greater part of humanity: men give “love” to get sex, and women give sex to get “love”.

Suppose further, that this marriage was in a rocky period and had been for some time, that she was having some serious problems with his absence due to his job, that communication had been about practical matters (the checkbook, groceries, who was coming over for dinner) and that personal issues between them were ignored at best, that fighting had gone from issue orientation to ad hominem attacks ("you always…! you never…!), and, if you were to look at Paul’s writing about men’s calling in marriage (giving of himself as Christ gave of Himself - often called that dirty word “sacrifice”), you could not identify the husband as ever having read, let alone understood Paul’s exhortations.

And now, let’s suppose, just for the sake of arguement, that the husband is pretty much headed for the divorce lawyer, but he is hesitating; he’s in counseling, he has asked his priest for advice, he has even gone on a Catholic forum to ask advice, and he hasn’t yet filed.

Kind of sounds like he may still have some possiblity of reconcilliation, don’t you think? And, I would submit, if there is to be any reconcilliation, both have to realize that they have had a part in how they got to where they are.

Note, I am not susggesting that there is not more fault on one side than the other. But I am suggesting that both sides have been at fault, and if there is to be reconcilliation, both sides have to recognize that and act accordingly.

Your comment that the wife alone committed the sin is a legalistic view of sin that implies, underneath it, that such actions are essentially created in a vacuum, not in a real, life and blood situation called marriage. Mariage is not a contract, it is a covenant, and that is far different than a contract. A contract requires that one party do something before the other party is obligated to act, and further implies that the obligation to act, on the second party’s part, is limited to the extent of the act by the first party…

Thank you for your eleoquent and well thought-out post. I agree with the sentiments expressed above, but I still think there needs to be a pause in thought before we assume there were necessarily problems in the marriage on the husband’s part which precipitated the action. While I agree that the marriage as a whole, its environment if you will, is certainly not irrelevant to the situation at hand, I would suggest that it’s like comparing apples and oranges. The sin of adultery so overshadows and eclipses the routine and mundane range of husband’s likely shortcomings. I have been a close witness to at least two examples where your reasoning was not applicable, for example. In one occasion, the spouse finally had a psychotic break and attempted to murder her husband. His friends and family watched in disbelief as most people assumed he was at fault for the problems when that was indeed not the case. The other case was basicaly lust and, from what I have gathered from the parties involved, there was no desire at all on the part of the woman for a relationship outside marriage. The husband had not done anything wrong, although one might say he was pretty young and a little overwhelmed with married life.

As Dr. Laura has said to callers in these situations, it’s really easy to jump on the man and assume that there must be serious problems. I’m just not sure that’s a fair approach, and I am tired of husband and father-bashing in general. Having vented the above, I still am in basic agreement with your ultimate conclusions. Just because the sin took place, doesn’t mean its time to divorce. With God’s help and real counseling, healing can take place. Just make sure that the counselor isn’t like the Protestant pastor my friend received. (Divorce was the suggestion right off the bat there.)

 

[Liberian]

Diver_Zero:

reconciliation does not seem possible because she is deat set on raising the child in our home, and i refuse. it seems like my choices are 1) singe the rest of my life, or 2) raise a child that is my wife’s and another man’s. is there any way that this can be resolved?

Diver,

It probably sounds bogus, but please don’t underestimate the ability to forgive. If you choose to try to forgive your wife, you will have supernatural help behind you. There are very few things that God is on record as saying flatly that He hates, but divorce is one of them. So I give you a third alternative: try to forgive your wife and raise the child as your own. You would not be the child’s biological father, but you will be his daddy, and will have the joys and rewards that come with that. (I know of what I speak here; I have been father to three wonderful kids, and–temporarily–daddy to a couple more.)

• Liberian

 

[Catholic2003]

mosher:

Can. 1152 1-3 is very restrictive and only allows for the possibility of a perpetual seperation but it also implies reconsiliation in the first words of the law and throughout the canon.

In modern canon law, forgiveness of the adulterous spouse by the innocent party is indeed encouraged. The situation in the early Church was different:

In the first centuries of the Church, there was often a commandment, and the duty was imposed on the innocent party, to separate from the party guilty of adultery. There never, however, was any such general legislation. The duty, however, of separation was founded partly on the canonical penance imposed for adultery that was publicly known (and this penance was incompatible with marital life), and partly on the duty of avoiding scandal, as continued living with a husband or wife addicted to adultery might seem to be a scandalous approval of this criminal life. For this latter reason, even nowadays, circumstances may arise making the dismissal of the guilty party a duty (cf. St. Alphonsus, VI, n. 963 sqq.).

 

[mumto5]

Ruthie:

I find I have sympathy for the woman in this situation. (That doesn’t mean I condone her behavior at all!)

She’s married to a man who travels for a living. She has to contend with the worries about who he might be seeing, or what he might be doing, when he is out of town. One can get somewhat obsessive-compulsive about that. It’s not fun.

Not only does he travel, but at his destination he does work that is injurious to his body, reducing his fertility. That could cedrtaihly affect her attitude towards the marital act.

It is also very dangerous work. Like a policeman’s wife, she deals with the real possibility that the next time her phone rings, it might be someone telling her that her husband is dead.

So, when her husband is gone, she suffers from a lot more than mere lonliness.

We don’t know why she did what she did. But I can understand the temptation to be with a “regular guy” who is healthy, present, and not in life-threatening work.

As for the baby… I think the question “Can this marriage be saved?” should be answered before deciding on the baby’s fate.

Praying for “all of the above,”
Ruthie

Oh well, my husband travels a lot more than this man for a living. I have five children as well and no family nearby. Do I ever feel tempted to have an affair with a ‘regular guy’? No. It is true that absence makes the heart grow fonder. Do I have to worry about where my husband is and who he is seeing? No. I actually think he finds being away harder than I find having him away. When he travels it’s huge - we are in New Zealand and it’s about 26 hours in the air alone when he goes to Europe. 12 if he goes to the US. Yes, I worry about him but I keep it in perspective.

Glad you can understand it because I can’t understand those justifications.

 

[Catholic2003]

otm:

As to the Canon’s, I wonder how much that is ever applied. The Canons are for world wide application, and I hav often wondered if the intersecting of civil laws in some countries don’t result in them being specifically used, or completely ignored as practically irrelevant.

Good point. The CLSA’s New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law says: “In practice, however, the substantive and procedural canons governing separation are largely ignored both by separating couples and by ecclesiastical authority in the English-speaking world.”

 

[mosher]

otm:

Your statement is a bit confusing in the first part. I am not sure what allowances you are speaking of. As far as I can ascertain, booth the Pauline and Petrine priviledge do not assume reconcillitation, as they are the specific authority from the time of Christ to allow marriage to another party under the specific provisions regarding the first marriage. They are not merely legitimate means (or authority) of separation for a period of time. Or perhaps you are referring to something else?

You may be saying that divorce qua divorce does not exist within Canon law, and that would be correct, but I would disagree with you that the Church does not recognize divorce as a legal proceeding in the civil sphere; it separates out the issue of legal status qua civil authorities from the covenantal relationship (sacramental) which it holds is not impacted by the civil action. Also, tribunals will not entertain an action to declare a nullity without a civil divorce. If that is rquired before the tribunal will entertain the action, then it is not exactly correct to say that the Church does not in any way recognize a divorce, or that it does not exist.

On the first point there is always an assumption of the retention of the integrity of the sacramental bond.

On the second point it is a matter of formality.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Diver a thought and a proayer went out for you as I was practising my reading for September 11 Mass from Sirach 27:30-28:7

 

[Mike_O]

Diver Zero, God have mercy on you.

While this situation is tragic, what is also sad is the judgmental nonsense being served up by a number of posters on this thread.

It’s wonderfully simple to toss in your own detached opinions here, but I find it highly unlikely that people advising “keep the child” would do the same were this foisted upon them.

Diver Zero has made the correct decision. His wife sinned and his wife must pay the price, not him. He did nothing wrong. He is not bound by civil or moral law to have anything to do with this situation. Indeed, the fact that a woman would commit such a crime speaks volumes as the original validity of the marriage; clearly, she had no intention of fulfilling her vows. This “moment of weakness” nonsense is garbage.

An adulterer makes a concerted, willful decision to commit this crime. Plenty of opportunity exists to rescind such a decision.

As he noted, she did so repeatedly.

My opinion is relatively worthless, but then, so are those offered by other complete strangers who have no personal link to the situation beyond words read on a computer screen.

In short, the solution is genuine prayer. Do what you have said you will do. This “take the high ground” stuff is fine for theoretical situations, but when it actually happens, it’s not so simple as other posters have made it out to be.

 

[Lexee15]

Lexee15:

Being in a similar situation, my husband cheating on me…granted he can’t get pregnant, but believe me you don’t need a physical person (baby) to be constant reminder of the deception…just looking at him reminds me. And I think most people here are right…if he loves his wife he needs to give all of them the opportunity to try and get passed this. Seems to me that we have a double standard going on here, why does it seem more acceptable for a woman to forgive her husband’s infidelities and try to make things work out than for a man to forgive the wife’s infidelities Is it because it is expected for the man to stray and have moments of weakness, but not the woman . I say this has more to do with his pride and ego that another man had his paws all over HIS woman than doing what’s right. If she’s the weak one at this point in time then it’s up to you to take up the reins and be strong enough for both of you…and who knows maybe the child is yours you never know God works in mysterious ways, you’re being tested…trying to work through this, regardless of the outcome his the honorable thing to do and you will both be healthier people at the end if you continue with therapy. That’s all I’m asking for myself, if in the end we don’t stay together I can say I gave it my all and with the Grace of God we will have become better people, that out of something so ugly we were able to pull something positive…some good, we owe that to ourselves, our marriage and our child.

Again, why does it seem that the woman “should” try to make things work and save her family…keep it together? Where is his obligation as a husband ? She is in danger of losing her soul, it is the husband’s obligation to TRY to put her on the right track, to help her get back on the road to salvation. “In good times and in bad, for better or for worse, etc.” It’s easy to keep your vows when things are good…but when faced with a crisis, this is where the person’s character will show in doing the right thing. By no means am I saying that it will all work out and that they’ll stay together, what I am saying is that you have to try, in doing so both people will heal and be better people whether they stay together or not. This is the attitude I am taking in my situation of multiple affairs… with one going on for almost a year!!! Is it hard YES, am I struggling YES, but I still feel that I’d rather be in my shoes than his, and it is my obligation to try to put him on the correct path, if in the end we don’t stay together or he continues with this behavior then I’m gone…but with my head held high knowing that I gave it my all, that I forgave and healed and that I cannot control his behavior, therefore for my and my child’s mental and emotional health we have to go. That’s when I will go…not giving up but realizing that his behavior is his choice and that I did all I could…my simple opinion.

 

[Scanner]

Diver,

There may be another way of looking at this. I’m sorry - I didn’t read everything and I may be repeating myself.

Maybe you have to think about this 4 dimensionally, think of this in terms of your entire lifespan.

I am a guy and I know what you mean about raising another man’s child, the biological drive that goes against that. I am not sure the females realize how against the drive it is. It’s very close to something unnatural always discussed here. I don’t know how old the both of you are - you sound in your 20’s.

But, here’s the interesting thing in your case - you were basically reporting to us that there was the possibiltiy of you developing infertility or being infertile.

While in your 20’s (and maybe 30’s), you don’t really feel the need to “nurture” or “raise” something as a male, you change as you get older. That is, someday you will want to “leave a legacy.” You’ll realize your family (blood and/or adopted) are all that’s important on this earth and world.

In fact, you did say, “I was looking forward to another little diver until. . .” (and beleive me, I understand that “until”)

But maybe you could entertain that that unborn child could be that legacy that one day you’ll want to leave.

I guess what I am trying to say in short is I would hate to see you go through that divorce/annullment, remarry, and then be trying to go through all kinds of infertility treatments and/or adoption when perhaps what you may ultimately be after is right in front of you.

Wouldn’t that be ironic if you head down that path? And I could see you very well heading down that path because probably 8 out 10 women do want to have kids.

God works in mysterious ways.

I know I didn’t even address the “trust” issue. . .that I’ll defer to the rest of the forum.

It sounds like the headmaster (and whatever the property judgemental authorities may be) gave you the “go” on whatever you decide.

I don’t blame you one way or the other.

Good luck.

 

[anne1234]

**This is a very sad story indeed.
So much heartache and confusion.

I don’t have much to add other than to agree with alot of the advice and disagree with some… just like everyone else.

I will say this though. We are reading “one side” of this story.
Before a riot breaks out on here, I’m not saying Diver is making things up, or distorting the truth, or that his wife is right.

All I’m saying is we have heard his side only.
So many more questions.
Was the marriage troubled before this? (I’m not saying adultery is right when there is trouble in a marriage)

Is the wife sick with remorse?

These are times when our faith is put to the test or rather put to work.
It’s easy to have faith and go along with your day when nothing major happens.

Regardless, this is all so sad
**

 

[Ruthie]

Mumto5 wrote: “Glad you can understand it because I can’t understand those justifications.”

First, I was not justifying what she did. I was just trying to get at “the other side of the story.” I merely said I could understand her temptation.

Of course, you can identify with a small part of what I pointed oput. But when you say, “Do I have to worry about where my husband is and who he is seeing? No. I actually think he finds being away harder than I find having him away,” remember that we don’t know whether or not this is true of our wronged husband. He may like to travel. He may or may not be giving her feedback regarding whether or not he is tempted when he is away.

It seems that your worries are confined to the long flights your husband must take. You said nothing about his line of work, whether or not it is health and life threatening. Diver’s line of work is both.

We don’t know how much this stressed the marriage. We don’t know, for instance, if she had begged him in the past to find a safer job.

P.s. My husband travels about twice a year for his job, and now and then goes to school for a month to a year. Like you, I have no worries except for the hazards of travel.

We’re blessed, aren’t we?

 

[Katie1723]

Mike O:

Diver Zero, God have mercy on you.

While this situation is tragic, what is also sad is the judgmental nonsense being served up by a number of posters on this thread.

It’s wonderfully simple to toss in your own detached opinions here, but I find it highly unlikely that people advising “keep the child” would do the same were this foisted upon them.

Diver Zero has made the correct decision. His wife sinned and his wife must pay the price, not him. He did nothing wrong. He is not bound by civil or moral law to have anything to do with this situation. Indeed, the fact that a woman would commit such a crime speaks volumes as the original validity of the marriage; clearly, she had no intention of fulfilling her vows. This “moment of weakness” nonsense is garbage.

An adulterer makes a concerted, willful decision to commit this crime. Plenty of opportunity exists to rescind such a decision.

As he noted, she did so repeatedly.

My opinion is relatively worthless, but then, so are those offered by other complete strangers who have no personal link to the situation beyond words read on a computer screen.

In short, the solution is genuine prayer. Do what you have said you will do. This “take the high ground” stuff is fine for theoretical situations, but when it actually happens, it’s not so simple as other posters have made it out to be.

Finally…a voice of reason. Most of the posters have given the “Catholic” answer, not the one they would give if they themselves were in the same situation.
~ Kathy ~

 

[rayne89]

Katie1723:

Finally…a voice of reason. Most of the posters have given the “Catholic” answer, not the one they would give if they themselves were in the same situation.
~ Kathy ~

Speak for yourself. My husband was unfaithful very early in our marriage. If a child would have resulted, although it would be devastating and humiliating - I would not have walked away. WHen I said I do, I meant til death do us part. I love my husband even when he hurts me, even when he falls. If my husband would have gotten another women pregnant and she did not want to raise the child I would have taken it into our home and raised it as our own.

This isn’t just a matter of trust, it’s a matter of pride. “I can not raise another man’s child” has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with pride. I do not discount the very painful situation this is. I know what it feels like to be betrayed. But we are called to forgive.

If I would have walked away from my marriage years ago I would have missed spending my life with my best friend. Not one of us are perfect -sometimes we make huge mistakes. Of all the people in the world that should stand by us our spouse should be first on that list.

CCC
1642 Christ is the source of this grace. "Just as of old God encountered his people with a covenant of love and fidelity, so our Savior, the spouse of the Church, now encounters Christian spouses through the sacrament of Matrimony."[147] Christ dwells with them, gives them the strength to take up their crosses and so follow him, to rise again after they have fallen, to forgive one another, to bear one another’s burdens, to “be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ,”[148] and to love one another with supernatural, tender, and fruitful love.

 

[mumto5]

Ruthie:

Mumto5 wrote: “Glad you can understand it because I can’t understand those justifications.”

First, I was not justifying what she did. I was just trying to get at “the other side of the story.” I merely said I could understand her temptation.

Yes, i agree that we only have one side of the story - and a small part at that. I do think that a lot of people forget that this man has only had one month to deal with this and is still reacting to the hurt. He may change his mind in time, he may not.

I have to say that the only temptations I’ve ever experienced are to toss it all in, move to another country and escape the life of travel, seperation, long hours at times, etc. But then I remind myself that it will get easier as the children get older. I know my husband hates travelling. In fact I was a bit concerned at one point as he said he was finding it harder and harder to be away - he does get terribly homesick. OTOH, he has the paypacket to match so I can get a cleaner once every two weeks which does help out. The temptation to find another man has never been there though. Like all wives, I just deal with the current circumstances, the good and the bad.

Ruthie:

It seems that your worries are confined to the long flights your husband must take. You said nothing about his line of work, whether or not it is health and life threatening. Diver’s line of work is both.

His line of work is not in itself life-threatening but he was in London at the time of the bombings and often travels to places I’d rather he didn’t. He went there again a few days after the second bombing but promised to stay off the tube.

Ruthie:

We’re blessed, aren’t we?

Most definitely

 

[Scanner]

Well, it is a Catholic forum, what do you expect? A Pagan answer?

I think you are being too hard on the people who reply. Lucky for him, it sounds like it his choice, that God and the Church is leaving it in his hands, one way or another.

But what would have happened, God forbid, if Diver’s wife was raped and got pregnant?

How would one feel about him raising that child? Is it about the ends or the means?

Is it really about who’s child it is or about the sin the wife apparently committed and that the kid is “a product of her and her lover’s sin?” (let’s not forget her adulterer sinned too by having sex with a married woman).

For some reason, and I don’t know why, God designed us to reproduce without regard to sin or sanctity. The reality is she’s pregnant and there’s a kid coming into the world.

Interesting questions. I hope Diver keeps us posted and I wish him luck on his decision.

 

[mumto5]

Scanner:

But what would have happened, God forbid, if Diver’s wife was raped and got pregnant?

…
Is it really about who’s child it is or about the sin the wife apparently committed and that the kid is “a product of her and her lover’s sin?”.

I really don’t think you can compare the two. I know if my husband was violated in that way I would rush to his side to comfort him and help him deal with the trauma. Whole different kettle of fish to if he chose to be unfaithful (and being raped is not being unfaithful).

So as you say, it’s about the sin itself and the betrayal, not the outcome.

 

[Scanner]

Mum,

I agree with you but we return to the outcome (the ends).

This child is coming into the world, with not his genetic material, but someday may say,

“Thanks for teaching me diving Dad. It’s great to follow in your footsteps.”

or

“All I learned about investing came from you.”

or

“Thanks for being there when I graduated college.”

etc.

Nurture and nature make the person. He would leave a legacy, even if it wasn’t his biological child.

I think it is wise if the Church leaves it in Diver’s hands. Who knows? What if the genetic father DOES want to father the child? I guess the three wouild be better off living happily ever after.

 

[Katie1723]

rayne89:

…If I would have walked away from my marriage years ago I would have missed spending my life with my best friend. Not one of us are perfect -sometimes we make huge mistakes. Of all the people in the world that should stand by us our spouse should be first on that list….

What happened to Fidelity and Trust? Forgetting to pick up the laundry is a whole lot different than sleeping around.There’s a whole commandment devoted to that alone. And if he’s your best friend, why on earth would he hurt you so deeply? That’s all I’m asking.
~ Kathy ~