Wife won't let husband be spritual leader of house?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MainBrain
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That’s it. It’s a shock to modern ears, but men actually have a higher natural order. There is supposed to be a man of the house and he is to be the head of the household.

All people are equal in dignity but it no other way. Whether he is good at it or bad at it is another thing, but the real insult to women is the constant lie that society continually drills into her, that unless she can be a man she can’t be equal.
While I agree with you in idea, you got one word upside down. Let me explain:

people think the pope is at the top of the triangle, with cardinals under him, then bishops, then priests, lay men, and women being “oppressed” at the bottom. Actually, its the opposite. Reverse the triangle, the pope at the bottom, in service to the church, with the weight of the world’s souls on him. Then Cardinals and bishops, serving the priests. Then lay men, and women at the top as the crown of creation. When a man becomes a priest, another Christ, he “empties himself, taking the form of a slave”…and lowers himself in humility in service to the church.

The domestic church household works the same way… the husband in service to his wife and family, “lowering” himself in humility. So, while a “head” is physically on top of a body, this is the paradox of the cross-- God becoming human, to the point of death.

I would not say that “men have the higher natural order”. That also gets way to close to saying higher intrinsic worth, which isn’t true. The “head” is actually a “Servant”.
 
I think I would have a hard time following the spiritual leadership of someone who declared himself “done with organized religion” just a few weeks ago and has now decided that he is competent to be in charge of my eternal salvation.
 
The “head” is actually a “Servant”.
I wanna like button for that. Well said sir.

You women that haven’t submitted to your husband must realize you haven’t submitted to your Lord either.

If you laugh at the notion your husband isn’t the head of the household, it’s at least as much your fault as his.

If you envisioned yourself the “head of the household” because you felt your husband was not, you should remember that your God did not create you with a head for the household. It would be like trying to drive a car with no hands.

This wasn’t just a commandment of God, it was a truth. God didn’t just give us men the responsibility to head our households, he gave us the means to do so as well. He did not give women the means to do so, and you only do damage when you try to take the wheel from your husband.

Don’t make the same mistake Eve did, remember your humility.
 
That’s it. It’s a shock to modern ears, but men actually have a higher natural order. There is supposed to be a man of the house and he is to be the head of the household.

All people are equal in dignity but it no other way. Whether he is good at it or bad at it is another thing, but the real insult to women is the constant lie that society continually drills into her, that unless she can be a man she can’t be equal.
What does it mean to be “equal in dignity,” in practice?

“Women are naturally of a lower order” is not insulting. Why? If I went up to someone right now and told that person that they are “naturally of a lower order,” do you think they would feel insulted? Man or woman, I suspect that they would.

What does “be a man” mean? Being a full human being? Why is this “lie” more offensive than telling women that they are “naturally of a lower order”?

What does “equal” mean in the final sentence? (You suggest that women can be “equal” to men as long as they are not “be[ing] a man.” Please elaborate.
 
That’s it. It’s a shock to modern ears, but men actually have a higher natural order. There is supposed to be a man of the house and he is to be the head of the household.

All people are equal in dignity but it no other way. Whether he is good at it or bad at it is another thing, but the real insult to women is the constant lie that society continually drills into her, that unless she can be a man she can’t be equal.
If a woman were married to Haron Monis (the Sydney hostage taker), would he be the head of the household? And what would that mean, exactly, in practice?

abcnews.go.com/International/sydney-hostage-taker-identified-man-haron-monis/story?id=27607179
 
I think I would have a hard time following the spiritual leadership of someone who declared himself “done with organized religion” just a few weeks ago and has now decided that he is competent to be in charge of my eternal salvation.
Yes.

Nobody can be a leader of any kind who is not consistent in the direction he is leading. If there is zig-zagging or if there are U-turns, a “leader” like that is going to lose the confidence of his “followers.”
 
This wasn’t just a commandment of God, it was a truth. God didn’t just give us men the responsibility to head our households, he gave us the means to do so as well. He did not give women the means to do so, and you only do damage when you try to take the wheel from your husband.
Again, how far should a wife follow if she finds herself married to someone like Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Sydney hostage taker, the married Tsarnaev brother, or similar?

There are all different kinds of husbands and some of them have some really, really bad ideas.
 
How does a husband deal with his wife when she will not let him be the spiritual leader of the household? I have to laugh when I hear single women say, “I want my husband to be the spiritual leader of the house…” I have yet to see a woman who wants to submit to any man. Anyway, I digress. Back to my question. How does a husband deal with a wife who has a very domineering personality and will not allow her husband to be the spiritual leader, even if it means teaching morals to their kids.
I am assuming you are in the US and I did a bit of a google for a specific organisation for mens Catholic formation there. Do you have a Catholic Men’s Conference near to you that you could contact?

pilgrimcenterofhope.org/cmc/conference.php

It sounds like you have the wrong end of the stick regarding leadership and spiritual leadership in the spirit of Ephesians 5. It outlines a beautiful model of healthy love and respect but like any scripture gem, it can be twisted into some sort of gender war.
 
I remember hearing an acquaintance say, “My husband is the head of the house. I told him he has to be.” 😛
 
Again, how far should a wife follow if she finds herself married to someone like Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Sydney hostage taker, the married Tsarnaev brother, or similar?

There are all different kinds of husbands and some of them have some really, really bad ideas.
Using extraneous circumstances to try and win an argument doesn’t work for a multiple of reasons.

First of all, while those men may have had the capacity to “head” a household doesn’t necessarily mean they exercised this function. Even if they didn’t perform this service at all, it would not mean that through their inability that their wives would have been capable to fill the void.

Secondly, women don’t magically “find” themselves married to men like this. They choose to do so of their own free will, and frequently that is at odds with all the warning signs God and other loved ones placed in their lives to help protect them in the first place.

If you happen to be married to a cult leader who is plotting to get his cult to murder you and commit mass suicide, I’d suggest to you that your marriage might be invalid and perhaps you should seek protection with your children.

If you aren’t in this situation, then I would suggest attempting to refrain from exaggeration to try and leverage your arguments as that is only going to cause contention in your relationships.

We may need to establish equivocal terms. Being the “head” of the household does not mean men should exercise their authority to overcome every disagreement of opinion between the man and the wife. It means exercising their authority FOR the woman and family. If you feel he is exercising his authority for selfish desire, then talk it out with him.

A man should plan, and work towards, the well being of the family. A few metaphors may help. The man has the responsibility to safeguard the family because the man, (like the head) can think without the emotional aspects influencing the opinion. The head has eyes to see whats going on external to the body. The man should discern what is good for the body, just as the food enters through the head. The head senses smoke with it’s nostrils, and so the father can tell the family when its time to flee.

Good decisions require this function, and women aren’t naturally designed in a way that can fulfill this role. Better decisions require a mixture of the head and the heart, and this requires the man to love his wife to such an extent that he realizes the services she performs for the family are just as important as his own. The best men realize that should he ever have to choose between leaving his children with either their mother or their father, he should sacrifice himself for the family.

Sometimes, that just means going to work so that the mother can be home with the children. Sometimes it may mean sacrificing much more.

The heart is pure, powerful, and extreme. The head is stable, measured, calculating. Sometimes, the heart is so important it should never be repressed, but sometimes, the heart can be deceiving. The beauty of marriage is that when two people are truly acting as one, the man can experience vicariously the true spirit of life through the woman, and the woman can experience life itself under the protection given from the man.

Every marriage is unique, and I get the feeling you don’t trust you husband to lead you. My wife does the same thing all the time! This is normal. Figure out a system, talk about the deeper issues, and give trust a try. God bless.
 
I don’t think it’s a trust issue. I trust my husband explicitly. I just don’t need him to “lead” me. I’m a grown woman of at least average intelligence over the age of legal adulthood. I am perfectly capable of “leading” myself. The very idea that a woman is not capable of making decisions with both her intellect and her instinct/emotion is…ridiculously archaic.

Unless, of course, the poster above me is trolling us. That would make sense.
 
First of all, while those men may have had the capacity to “head” a household doesn’t necessarily mean they exercised this function. Even if they didn’t perform this service at all, it would not mean that through their inability that their wives would have been capable to fill the void.

**Eh, this is not very helpful from a wife’s point of view. Where is she supposed to stop following? Because it is obviously the case that there are many circumstances where it is her duty to not follow where her husband is leading. **

A man should plan, and work towards, the well being of the family.

**A woman should plan and work toward the well-being of her family, ideally with her husband. A woman who does not consistently plan and work toward the well-being of her family is failing as a wife and a mother. **

A few metaphors may help. The man has the responsibility to safeguard the family because the man, (like the head) can think without the emotional aspects influencing the opinion.

**Men don’t have emotions???

Pick up a Bible and see Jesus weeping over Lazarus, read the Psalms, read St. Paul’s letters, or look at any number of examples of emotionally expressive male Biblical figures. The Anglo-Saxon view of men as stoic is un-Biblical.

(And I have to add that in my family, I’m ethnically WASP while my husband is Eastern European. He is way more emotionally expressive than I am.)**

The head has eyes to see whats going on external to the body. The man should discern what is good for the body, just as the food enters through the head. The head senses smoke with it’s nostrils, and so the father can tell the family when its time to flee.

Women aren’t acutely sensitive to danger to children? Really???

Good decisions require this function, and women aren’t naturally designed in a way that can fulfill this role. Better decisions require a mixture of the head and the heart, and this requires the man to love his wife to such an extent that he realizes the services she performs for the family are just as important as his own. The best men realize that should he ever have to choose between leaving his children with either their mother or their father, he should sacrifice himself for the family.
**
OK.**

Sometimes, that just means going to work so that the mother can be home with the children. Sometimes it may mean sacrificing much more.

The heart is pure, powerful, and extreme. The head is stable, measured, calculating. Sometimes, the heart is so important it should never be repressed, but sometimes, the heart can be deceiving. The beauty of marriage is that when two people are truly acting as one, the man can experience vicariously the true spirit of life through the woman, and the woman can experience life itself under the protection given from the man.

Every marriage is unique, and I get the feeling you don’t trust you husband to lead you. My wife does the same thing all the time! This is normal. Figure out a system, talk about the deeper issues, and give trust a try. God bless.
Eh, I don’t think your views, while very eloquently expressed, are orthodox Catholicism.

I would say, that practically speaking, either spouse can have bad ideas. I think that, barring an emergency, either spouse should be able to veto a spouse’s idea and that the veto should hold until there is agreement.
 
Well, obviously it’s okay for kids to learn morals from their mothers. St. Paul talks about how St. Timothy learned Christianity from his mother and his grandmother.

OTOH, it’s totally okay for the wife to be “first officer” and for the husband to be “captain.” You have a partnership and you both deal with a lot of day to day stuff, but you give one partner the final word so that arguments can be resolved. A lot of times, the first officer is the boss to the crew so that the captain doesn’t have to lower himself, and can spend more time working on the ship’s future plans.

But a dad has moral authority over his kids just by being there, honestly. No matter how much kids love their mom and learn from her, it’s Dad who has final authority and looms like a giant over their lives. If Dad is a calm, friendly, strong giant who is solid like a rock and always goes to church and does what’s right, they think of God as being like him. If Dad is not quite so solid, they assume God doesn’t care if they go to church. Boys get their picture of being a man from their dad. Girls get their picture of the ideal man from their dad.

Dads have a lot of power, whether they think they do or not.
 
I am a man, so I will now express my thoughts “like a man.” Based on this conversation, I gather that that means in a logical fashion and not hysterically, as a woman would do.
  1. If “think[ing] without the emotional aspects” is superior to thinking with the “emotional aspects,”
  2. Then, one would expect that important philosophical positions would be explained in a way that represented “think[ing] without the emotional aspects.”
  3. This philosophical position has been predominantly expressed by using flowery, poetic language and metaphors.
  4. Flowery, poetic language and metaphors are a way of “thinking with the emotional aspects.”
  5. Therefore, either this philosophical position about the headship of man has been expressed poorly, or, there are times when thinking “with the emotional aspects” is superior to thinking “without the emotional aspects.”
 
I would love to see some man try and be the leader of anything in this house,
Just wouldn’t work, nah, just won’t happen,
You would find all your possessions out on the street,:o
 
Xantippe, my views are much more Orthodox than you can possibly imagine. Paul expressed an opinion that women should wear veils in Church, and to not speak, at all, while in Church. Is that Orthodox in your opinion? Been to Rome lately?

You ask how far to follow your husband, because you say he’s less capable of you are in making good decisions. I should remind you that when you married him, you said you follow him to death. If you feel this was a bad decision, that decision was yours.

Would you be OK if while still living he chose not to love you anymore? God said to follow the man, because you need to, and because he needs it also. God told us men to love our wives, because we need to, and because wives need that also. Yes, of course the man follows the woman at times, and of course the woman loves the husband (at times). These are your vows, this is what you promised.

But God chose to speak to these values specifically because this is where supernatural graces come into the picture. Its easy for a man to compartmentalize things and forget his love for his wife. Its easy for a woman to just take the steering wheel and drive for a while. God called these two things out specifically because they were important.

It’s very simple, your vows have not changed, and will not change. God almighty is your witness. You choose to stop following your husband and you choose less than Jesus has chosen for you. If your husband is placing your family in immediate danger, use common sense. If you feel he’s being selfish, talk it out with him. It’s better after all to live on the roof than to share a home with an unhappy wife, be that unhappy wife, or win him over with meekness. Your a woman, you were born with the, “How to manipulate men and get them to love you for it.” manual! But don’t mock your husband, or it will be Satan mocking you in judgement.

Why are you even asking how far you need to follow your husband? What issue has arisen that you doubt his intentions? Seek guidance with a spiritual director, one that your husband is comfortable with. Get these issues behind you now, so that you can enjoy your life with your husband to the fullest. You do not maintain any independence. You are his, completely. He is yours, completely. The meaning of that is more than just, “I like the guy.” It means that his concerns are always in the forefront of your mind, and in everything you do, you should be putting him first. The only person higher is God.

Think of how Sarah must have felt when questioned by God, “Why do you laugh?”. If you laugh at your husband, will you laugh at God too?
 
  1. Therefore, either this philosophical position about the headship of man has been expressed poorly, or, there are times when thinking “with the emotional aspects” is superior to thinking “without the emotional aspects.”
If you were interpreting my position on the matter, then I feel you have interpreted this correctly. Both in perceiving my poor expression and the conclusion derived.

To clarify, you should not have emotions as a primary cause for a decision, but have logic ruling the decision. This logic should value the emotional weight of the decision greatly, but not be dominated by it.

I’m not trying to state that women are incapable of suppressing their emotions, or of thinking critically, or that somehow logic escapes their labyrinthine minds.

What I’m saying is that God designed us as a communal species, and that when a woman is the decision-maker of the family, they are going outside Gods design. There are far more things being affected in the context of a community when these basic family principles are destroyed. This is one of those things that was important enough, that right from Genesis onward we see the story of how the family ought to live.

Christians, much less Catholics, should have little room for the error of ignorance here. In this day and age though it’s common to see! Women who subvert their Husbands or make an example of them in the presence of their own children, will often see young boys grow up and marry a woman who does the same thing they did. This was the example of a good marriage for the boy, so who could fault him? Don’t you want strong men in your lives women? You must let go of the steering wheel, even when you know you can steer.

Adam’s job was to protect the garden, and he failed because the serpent got in. Then Eve, being misled by the serpent, realized she could take the steering wheel. Just as all women can today. She did, and Adam then followed her. They trusted each other perfectly up until this point.

When God showed up, Adam, instead of protecting his wife, blames her. Eve, instead of accepting fault, blames Adam back indirectly. After all, how’d the serpent get there!? This basic problem, of the family, was the stain of original sin which has caused all our troubles in this life.

How can man and woman be redeemed? What makes a good “I’m sorry”? Adam, remember to love your wife, even unto death. Eve, remember to follow your husband, even unto death.
 
Xantippe, my views are much more Orthodox than you can possibly imagine. Paul expressed an opinion that women should wear veils in Church, and to not speak, at all, while in Church. Is that Orthodox in your opinion? Been to Rome lately?

**He didn’t say that men are more logical then women, though, which is your position. He totally did not say that. You can search the Bible pretty much from end to end and not find any verse that says that women are emotional while men are logical. And for good reason–the Bible is full of very emotional men.

I was just looking for a piece on Jewish men, and I came across the following from Chabad, the Orthodox Jewish outfit:

“Jewish men are often described as gentler and more spiritual than the general male population; gentleness and spirituality are viewed as more feminine characteristics. Similarly, Jewish women have been described as more assertive and intellectual than the general female population; assertiveness and intellectualism are viewed as more masculine characteristics. Historically, Jews have been mocked and derided for these androgynous qualities.”

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1080/jewish/Jews-are-from-Sinai-not-Mars-or-Venus.htm**

It’s not clear exactly how far back those particular Jewish gender features go, but I think we can definitely say that it’s difficult (or impossible) to make a case from sacred scripture for the traditional American/Anglo-Saxon dichotomy between stoic men and emotional women. That dichotomy does not exist in the world of the Bible and I think it is an artifact of Anglo-Saxon culture.

You ask how far to follow your husband, because you say he’s less capable of you are in making good decisions.

No, everybody sometimes makes bad decisions. In a marriage, unless it’s an emergency requiring an immediate decision, I think there’s a lot of value in just hitting pause until a couple arrives at a decision that they can both live with, even if it takes a long time to reach consensus. There’s also a lot to be said for starting small and building incrementally. Let’s say he wants to sell everything and buy a chicken farm. Well, maybe the couple ought to start with backyard chickens or helping out a farmer on the weekends and see if they actually like chickens or the farm schedule. Or let’s say she wants to sell Avon. How about starting with a few hundred dollars of stuff bought in cash and only buying more with actual income from the business? Or he wants to quit his job and start a business. How about keeping the day job and building the business on nights and weekends? Or she wants a dog? How about pet-sitting or dog-walking as a business before bringing a dog into the home? Both husband and wife will make fewer mistakes if they go slow and get buy-in from a spouse as they go.

I should remind you that when you married him, you said you follow him to death. If you feel this was a bad decision, that decision was yours.

**Eh, where is “follow him to death” in the Catholic marriage vows? This is starting to sound like some sort of suicide pact. **

But God chose to speak to these values specifically because this is where supernatural graces come into the picture. Its easy for a man to compartmentalize things and forget his love for his wife. Its easy for a woman to just take the steering wheel and drive for a while. God called these two things out specifically because they were important.

**Eh, what is a woman supposed to do if her husband is mentally ill or senile? **

Your a woman, you were born with the, “How to manipulate men and get them to love you for it.” manual!

**Eh, no. Actually, I wasn’t. I was born with an almost complete lack of feminine wiles (thanks, autism spectrum!) and have had to painstakingly acquire them.
**

Why are you even asking how far you need to follow your husband?

**All human authority has limits. There is no human authority who can command total obedience, and it’s very much worthwhile to think hard about what the limits of human authority are in a variety of different situations. **
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top