Wife won't let husband be spritual leader of house?

[Bannan]

I worry about men who seem much too excited about getting their wives to submit to them.

It doesn’t seem like a very spiritually wholesome attitude for a Christian.

I am excited about defending the truth in adversity, which you’ve provided well. Be hot or be cold, husbands who are lukewarm as to the behaviors of their wives and children aren’t being very good stewards of the responsibility entrusted to them by God.

That said, the authority is a gift from the woman. Man can do nothing to demand it of the woman, she must entrust him with it or he has no authority.

Of course I’m excited about this, because it means that one more family in this world is that much closer of a mirror of the holy family. An example to the world of Gods divine plan. It goads me to see so many women keep their authority, in distrust of their husbands and ultimately in distrust of God.

 

[Walking_Home]

OK, lets take a look at the teaching then shall we?

Your post from Article 2. In context

Marriage cannot be contracted except by free and full consent duly expressed by the spouses.

This does not say that the spouses have equal rights in marriage. This says that the spouses have equal rights to marry, making special note of the complementary differences between the sexes. Why a caveat the differences here? I suspect its because in some cultures, they may have thought that its OK if the male were Catholic but not the woman.

How about your next catechism reference? Shall we look?

Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family

Hey! This is still talking about a right to marry and remain married! Boy, that was tough to really get to the context there, all I had to do was read the first four sentences before what you posted.

This isn’t my protestantism showing, my protestantism died along years ago, along with the equal treatment for women rubbish. It is you who have been deceived as to the teachings of the Church, I am merely your hypocrite. Your resounding gong.

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My – what machinations — that you left out the relevant sections of what I quoted. I’ll re-post them – and bold the teaching on equal rights of both husband and wife in marriage. No matter how “you” try to go around it – the teaching the Catholic Church – is the mutual subjection of husband and wife — and equal rights of both spouses.

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE FAMILY

THE FAMILY AND HUMAN RIGHTS

Article 2

Marriage cannot be contracted except by free and full consent duly expressed by the spouses.

a) With due respect for the traditional role of the families in certain cultures in guiding the decision of their children, all pressure which would impede the choice of a specific person as spouse is to be avoided.

b) The future spouses have the right to their religious liberty. Therefore to impose as a prior condition for marriage a denial of faith or a profession of faith which is contrary to conscience, constitutes a violation of this right.

c) The spouses, in the natural complementarity which exists between man and woman, enjoy the same dignity and equal rights regarding the marriage.

Article 16

1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. **They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage **and at its dissolution.

 

[Walking_Home]

I worry about men who seem much too excited about getting their wives to submit to them.

It doesn’t seem like a very spiritually wholesome attitude for a Christian.

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Ditto – not at all seem like-- a spiritually wholesome/healthy Christian attitude.

 

[Bannan]

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My – what machinations — that you left out the relevant sections of what I quoted. I’ll re-post them – and bold the teaching on equal rights of both husband and wife in marriage. No matter how “you” try to go around it – the teaching the Catholic Church – is the mutual subjection of husband and wife — and equal rights of both spouses.

You didn’t read my post carefully enough.

I’ll rephrase what you posted then so that you can see more clearly what I’m trying to get you to see, instead of you just reading what you want to see.

c) The spouses, in the natural complementarity which exists between man and woman, enjoy the same dignity during the ceremony and equal rights regarding the upcoming marriage.

They are entitled to equal rights to marry, stay married and seek annulment.

Go back and read the precursor to your points, merely four sentences prior. You can see then what they mean in context. You are reading them out of context because you want it to mean something it doesn’t.

 

[Bannan]

Ditto – not at all seem like-- a spiritually wholesome/healthy Christian attitude.

Accusing me of having an unhealthy attitude, and of being unchristian, implicates yourself more than you implicate me. Let he who hasn’t sinned cast the first stone, otherwise stick to attacking the argument instead of attacking my character.

 

[Walking_Home]

You didn’t read my post carefully enough.

I’ll rephrase what you posted then so that you can see more clearly what I’m trying to get you to see, instead of you just reading what you want to see.

c) The spouses, in the natural complementarity which exists between man and woman, enjoy the same dignity during the ceremony and equal rights regarding the upcoming marriage.

They are entitled to equal rights to marry, stay married and seek annulment.

Go back and read the precursor to your points, merely four sentences prior. You can see then what they mean in context. You are reading them out of context because you want it to mean something it doesn’t.

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Again – you can try as you might to give your own “spin” – but it will not change that Church teaching is both husband and wife have equal rights within the marriage.

 

[AnnArbor]

I am excited about defending the truth in adversity, which you’ve provided well. Be hot or be cold, husbands who are lukewarm as to the behaviors of their wives and children aren’t being very good stewards of the responsibility entrusted to them by God.

That said, the authority is a gift from the woman. Man can do nothing to demand it of the woman, she must entrust him with it or he has no authority.

Of course I’m excited about this, because it means that one more family in this world is that much closer of a mirror of the holy family. An example to the world of Gods divine plan. It goads me to see so many women keep their authority, in distrust of their husbands and ultimately in distrust of God.

I think you are misunderstanding – I have not seen anyone here suggest that the woman is the head of the household, or has authority over her husband. In the same way that he has no authority over her. They are partners, who submit to each other mutually and exclusively. They have joint authority over their minor children. They have equal authority in deciding household matters – they may have chosen to assign arenas to one spouse or the other in recognition of that person’s unique gifts and talents. They make that decision together; to suggest that adult women must be submissive to men flies in the face of logic and reason.

An additional difficulty with what you suggest can sometimes play out in the workplace. A Harvard study indicated that men who believe in wifely submission can have a hard time accepting the authority of female supervisors, and are unhappier working alongside female coworkers.

 

[Bannan]

It isn’t my own spin, this is just me reading that in context. Its all I’m asking you to do, if your unwilling to see that then I’ll consider you in a state of invincible ignorance rather than willful denial.

I’m honestly a little surprised that after re-reading those catechism passages you forwarded me you didn’t see the truth of what they were saying, did you even look?

 

[Xantippe]

Accusing me of having an unhealthy attitude, and of being unchristian, implicates yourself more than you implicate me. Let he who hasn’t sinned cast the first stone, otherwise stick to attacking the argument instead of attacking my character.

It’s not a personal attack, just a general observation that it is more spiritually wholesome to think about what we owe other people and what our duties are to them, not what they owe to us and what is our due from them.

In a somewhat different (but analogous situation), I’m a mother and have three kids. It would be very unwholesome and perhaps self-serving of me to be obsessive about my children’s duty of obedience and respect to me, as sometimes happens in Protestant fundamentalist families (and even some Catholic families).

It’s much more spiritually healthy for me to think about my duties to my children, not their duties to me.

 

[Bannan]

I think you are misunderstanding – I have not seen anyone here suggest that the woman is the head of the household, or has authority over her husband. In the same way that he has no authority over her.

Their authority is not equal. The Husband is the greater authority, and that is exactly what God said in Genesis when he said that she would serve the man. How is she servant and yet still equal authority?

 

[heidi_storage]

Their authority is not equal. The Husband is the greater authority, and that is exactly what God said in Genesis when he said that she would serve the man. How is she servant and yet still equal authority?

You’re quite right, of course, and the various Pauline passages about the conduct of husband and wife support you–not to mention 1 Peter 3, which talks about women being subject to their husbands.

That said, I think this argument is futile. You aren’t going to convince anybody who disagrees with you. As for the OP, the fact is, he can’t make his wife behave in any sort of fashion. All he can do is be the best, most Christlike husband he can, and to pray for her.

 

[Bannan]

It’s much more spiritually healthy for me to think about my duties to my children, not their duties to me.

Its also convenient of you not to think about your duties to your husband.

This whole thread started with a man who may very well have an issue here, and you women instantly accuse him of focusing on this without a whole lot of background information on his situation. He is justified in wanting a submissive wife, even if your unwilling to admit it.

What I have issue with is our culture, and you are a part of that problem. You believe that woman and man are equal in every aspect, and are equally submissive to each other. In some contexts this makes sense, but in the context of authority, it does not. You do not recognize the authority of your husband, and you don’t even realize that by doing so you are not recognizing the authority of God or his Church.

 

[Bannan]

You’re quite right, of course, and the various Pauline passages about the conduct of husband and wife support you–not to mention 1 Peter 3, which talks about women being subject to their husbands.

That said, I think this argument is futile. You aren’t going to convince anybody who disagrees with you. As for the OP, the fact is, he can’t make his wife behave in any sort of fashion. All he can do is be the best, most Christlike husband he can, and to pray for her.

And a protestant comes to defend me! Thank you Heidi, from the bottom of my heart. Your right, the people I’m talking to probably are unconvinced, but I have hope that perhaps someone else reading this can be saved the hardship of misunderstanding the truth.

OP, if your still there hanging with us, Xantippe makes a very good point about not worrying about whether someone is subservient to you. While your justified in demanding it due to you by your wedding vows, just such an action will have the opposite effect. If she is bullheaded and brash, perhaps win her with meekness. Be all things to all people, especially those whom you love the most.

 

[Walking_Home]

It isn’t my own spin, this is just me reading that in context. Its all I’m asking you to do, if your unwilling to see that then I’ll consider you in a state of invincible ignorance rather than willful denial.

I’m honestly a little surprised that after re-reading those catechism passages you forwarded me you didn’t see the truth of what they were saying, did you even look?

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“Reading” it in the “context” – as you want to see it – which is in odds with the Catholic Church. Spin is still spin.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Its also convenient of you not to think about your duties to your husband.

This whole thread started with a man who may very well have an issue here, and you women instantly accuse him of focusing on this without a whole lot of background information on his situation. He is justified in wanting a submissive wife, even if your unwilling to admit it.

A review of the OP’s older posts may be helpful to you in understanding why a number of people here have responded to him as they did.

As to the rest of your posts, what Xantippe said.

 

[EasterJoy]

…As for the OP, the fact is, he can’t make his wife behave in any sort of fashion. All he can do is be the best, most Christlike husband he can, and to pray for her.

This is quite true. There is a saying attributed to Mother Teresa: God did not call me to be successful. God called me to be faithful. A husband’s concern ought not be whether or not his wife is a good follower. It ought to be whether or not he is a Christlike leader.

But Jesus summoned them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave. Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matt. 20:25-28

Bannan has talked about wives being willing to follow their husbands to the death, but what the Apostles taught by their example is that a leader according to Christ will lead unto the death. Literally! St. Paul was a martyr. The Apostles (excepting John) were martyrs.

And what does St. Paul say about those who “support” his efforts out of bad motives?
Of course, some preach Christ from envy and rivalry, others from good will.The latter act out of love, aware that I am here for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not from pure motives, thinking that they will cause me trouble in my imprisonment. What difference does it make, as long as in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed? And in that I rejoice. Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know that this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:15-19

What matters is that the household follows Christ. How that happens or who gets the credit is not something that a husband and father ought to concern himself with or nurse any jealousies about. It is not the wife, but the husband, who is instructed to “hand himself over,” in the famous Ephesians passage, after all.

The truth is, there are few women who do not respect a spouse who loves her as he loves himself. If there are, their husbands who faithfully love these wives, anyway, and still serve their wives as Christ served will not go without their reward. They do not need to worry about suffering Heaven’s judgment because their leadership was rejected; Christ himself suffered no less, and laid his life down, anyway. That is the correct Christian response to a wife and family who will not submit to the way of Christ offered by a husband and father.

 

[Xantippe]

Its also convenient of you not to think about your duties to your husband.

This whole thread started with a man who may very well have an issue here, and you women instantly accuse him of focusing on this without a whole lot of background information on his situation. He is justified in wanting a submissive wife, even if your unwilling to admit it.

What I have issue with is our culture, and you are a part of that problem. You believe that woman and man are equal in every aspect, and are equally submissive to each other. In some contexts this makes sense, but in the context of authority, it does not. You do not recognize the authority of your husband, and you don’t even realize that by doing so you are not recognizing the authority of God or his Church.

MainBrain has done a lot of posts in the past. Among other issues, as somebody else pointed out, just a few weeks previously, he was talking about being all done with organized religion. To go straight from that to demanding spiritual leadership of his home is enough to give even the most submissive wife whiplash.

It’s not the culture’s fault that MainBrain is having trouble exercising spiritual leadership in his home.

If anybody wants to lead, lead. Nobody can give you leadership on a silver platter. A leadership role comes from consistency between words and deeds, setting a good example, and having a strong record of service to others. That’s how I lead my kids. And if my husband wants to lead our family, he needs to do the same. (And he does, quite a lot of the time.) But anybody who curls up in a ball and whines is inevitably going to find that nobody is following him.

As Jesus said to the disciples when two of them were vying for the top spots among the disciples, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

 

[AnnArbor]

Their authority is not equal. The Husband is the greater authority, and that is exactly what God said in Genesis when he said that she would serve the man. How is she servant and yet still equal authority?

Fortunately, we do not have a literal understanding of Scripture. If you do, I am assuming you eat no shellfish or bacon, wear no clothing of mixed fiber, and have no problem with slavery. Some of the Bible really does need to be taken in its historical context.

 

[EasterJoy]

Their authority is not equal. The Husband is the greater authority, and that is exactly what God said in Genesis when he said that she would serve the man. How is she servant and yet still equal authority?

How is it that Christ commanded the Apostles,to whom he gave the power to bind and loose on earth, to lead by being the slaves of all and the servants of all? Because the leadership of Christ is not like the leadership of the world, that is how.

Remember His admonition! *You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. *

 

[AnnArbor]

And a protestant comes to defend me! .

Which rather supports our points.