Wife's menstural cycle,NFP, and softcup

[pentecostbaby]

This is getting ridiculous… OP, it’s for menstrual protection, not contraception. Are you wearing it for contraceptive purposes? No? Okay, nothing to worry about it. If you really want to worry about it, don’t keep it in during intercourse.

There is nothing wrong about having sex during a woman’s period.

Using a menstrual cup will not make a woman decide to use a diaphragm. I say this as someone who uses a Diva Cup.

Now that I’ve offended you all …

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

OP, it’s for menstrual protection, not contraception. Are you wearing it for contraceptive purposes? No? Okay, nothing to worry about it. If you really want to worry about it, don’t keep it in during intercourse.

See, I think the OP mentioned they want to use it during intercourse to avoid mess due to menses, and it is the use of it during intercourse what is being questioned by some, obviously there is no reason to worry about any moral repercussion about using it for menstrual protection in general…

The thing is, assuming that it is as good as it mentions it is in keeping the menses from coming out, it is probably pretty good at keeping the seminal fluid away from the cervix, no? In theory it seems like it could be left in for 11-12 hours after intercourse, so if the woman does not remove it until many hours later that also means that the chance of live sperm entering the cervix diminishes even more, right? It is not automatically justified to use anything that can diminish the chances of pregnancy as long as diminishing the chances of pregnancy is not the intent.

So I would think the two important questions are

1. How much does it minimize the chance of getting pregnant? (and if it doesn’t, then there is no issue… this is a more scientific question)
   and
2. Would it be ok to significantly minimize the chances of pregnancy (if it does do this) in order to be able to have sex during a woman’s period without as much “mess” (and this is not absolutely necessary in order to have sex at this point, since there are people that do have sex in this time without anything to stop the menses)? I would think it would not be ok, that the principle of double effect would not be justified here (if indeed it does significantly block the seminal fluid from entering the cervix and has a contraceptive effect, which I do not know if it does.) Like I mentioned before, the fact that they say it is not contraceptive does not mean that it does not diminish the chances of getting pregnant. It would have to be designed with contraception in mind, with a seal and without the chance of seminal fluid entering when removing the cup in order to be contraceptive, but this still does not mean that it does not have a significat effect (and I do not know if it does.)

And I do think that significantly blocking the path to the cervix (if it really does this) is a lot different than wearing whitey tighties, or eating certain foods, or doing any number of other things that may unintentionally have a slight effect on fertility.

 

[Nate13]

This is getting ridiculous… OP, it’s for menstrual protection, not contraception. Are you wearing it for contraceptive purposes? No? Okay, nothing to worry about it. If you really want to worry about it, don’t keep it in during intercourse.

There is nothing wrong about having sex during a woman’s period.

Using a menstrual cup will not make a woman decide to use a diaphragm. I say this as someone who uses a Diva Cup.

Now that I’ve offended you all …

haha I agree, but if by chance this was 80% effective (which I highly doubt) I think you would have to take that into consideration. If the OP gets the information they need or if we even just had a better understanding of how the product worked we could probably easily figure out if it really did impede sperm getting to where they would normally go. It is not as simple as “I’m not using as a contraceptive therefore its ok” If so then wouldn’t using a condom be ok if you were just using it so you could last longer haha? Intent is part of figuring out the morality of it, but that is not the whole picture.

 

[Nate13]

I did a little research and it appears the softcup can be used to increase the chance of pregnancy by using it after having sex to keep seminal fluids up near the cervix. I think there is actually a strong chance that it acts very similar to a diaphragm except that it moves out of the way much more easily. I would bet that it does actually do a decent job at preventing sperm to get though and you definitely want to check with the PPVI Institute before using it. Let us know if you find anything out.

 

[Katie966]

how would it “capture menstrul flow” and yet not block sperm (does it have a door that only lets sperm in?). it may not be made to be a diaphragm but it has a similar effect.

Not necessarily. Diaphragms are made of silicone and designed to keep sperm out. The site isn’t specific, only saying “polymeric material”, but there are plenty of materials that could capture menstrual flow and not block sperm. Do you realize how microscopic sperm are?

It doesn’t have a “similar effect”, and the idea that it would “lead to diaphragm use” is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Diaphragms are also designed differently, there is a spring mechanism to ensure an airtight seal. It does not seem to be the case with the Softcup, it actually says it shifts a bit when using the bathroom, but will go back into place.

Also a diaphragm needs to be in place for a certain amount of time post coital, and is normally used with a spermicide. They need to be custom fit by a doctor.

The site says over and over it is not a contraception. The intent of it is feminine hygiene protection.

Again, since there seems to be two different trains of thought here, I’d ask someone knowlegebale. If you use a NFP teacher,or an NFP only doctor, they probably can give you an answer.

 

[Corki]

Not necessarily. Diaphragms are made of silicone and designed to keep sperm out. The site isn’t specific, only saying “polymeric material”, but there are plenty of materials that could capture menstrual flow and not block sperm. Do you realize how microscopic sperm are?

It doesn’t have a “similar effect”, and the idea that it would “lead to diaphragm use” is utterly ridiculous.

In fact, diaphrams themselves aren’t all that effective alone. It is only when used to hold spermacide in place that they are an effective birthcontrol method. They don’t so much keep sperm out as much as make sure that sperm come in contact with spermicide.

 

[SummerSmiles]

I have, perhaps, such a misunderstanding of this whole topic. I was strongly under the presumption that intercourse during the menstral flow was forbidden, especially after now just rereading Leviticus 15. It seems pretty clear to me that this is not permitted. Please explain?

No, it’s not forbidden. I believe that using some methods of NFP (Creighton?) that time is considered fertile time, so if a couple is trying to avoid a pregnancy, they would abstain during this time. I use STM, and intercourse during a woman’s menstrual period is not considered fertile if certain conditions are met, for example a reliable cycle length that is not shorter than a certain number of days. (Sorry, I don’t remember the exact number. My cycles have never been short enough for me to worry about that particular rule.)

Back on topic, to the OP: I recommend contacting someone more knowledgeable about this. It might have slight contraceptive effects if used during intercourse, and if that is the case you probably won’t want to be using it. However if it doesn’t have any contraceptive effect, I would think that it would be ok to make it less messy during that time frame. I’d be interested in finding out what someone like the Pope Paul institute has to say about it, though.

 

[manualman]

I see no moral issues with it at all.

If you have a serious reason to avoid, however, I wonder if this is going to mess up your practice of NFP. It is not uncommon for some women to go straight from the taper off of menstrual discharge to the production of fertile symptom mucus.

There may be times when there might already be fertile mucus present masked by the last of the menstrual discharge.

In short it seems to me that sexual intimacy around the end of menstruation is going to mess up her ability to read her fertile symptoms in the days following.

We use Billings and I’ve learned the hard way not to be, ahem, flirty on the last day or two of menstruation. Keep it cool or you’ll screw up the mucus, man!

 

[Fidelia]

I did a little research and it appears the softcup can be used to increase the chance of pregnancy by using it after having sex to keep seminal fluids up near the cervix. I think there is actually a strong chance that it acts very similar to a diaphragm except that it moves out of the way much more easily. I would bet that it does actually do a decent job at preventing sperm to get though and you definitely want to check with the PPVI Institute before using it. Let us know if you find anything out.

I agree. It may be correct that there is no moral issue since the intent is only for menstrual protection and the product itself is only designed for that, but I am inclined to think that it probably would work as a pretty decent barrier. When the website says it shouldn’t be used for contraception it is probably just to cover themselves.

Just an aside: These probably are not much better ecologically or economically than pads or tampons. They are disposable and need to be purchased repeatedly. I would recommend the Diva Cup for general menstrual usage. It is really quite convenient and reusable. Though it does need to be removed for intimacy, since it is not places up near the cervix, but lower near the opening.

edit: This just came to mind also: A woman is typically not fertile anyway during the first 5 days of a cycle (cf the “first 5 days rule”), so unless she menstruates for longer than 5 days, she is not fertile during her period. “…it is likely that the vast majority of women who truly conceived from sex during their period had intercourse at the end of a long menstruation, on Day 6 or after…” Toni Weschler, Taking Charge of Your Fertility. 2006 page 128. (What she teaches in this book is basically the sympto-thermal method)
So, knowing she’s likely not even fertile when she would be wearing the instead cup during her period, does that change the circumstances?

 

[white_sheep]

I don’t think there is anything immoral about what you are suggesting.

And a public service announcement. Women should start taking prenatal vitamins when they become sexually active(or even before), not when they have a positive pregnancy test.

 

[Castello]

I would check with your NFP practicioner, the softcup could interfere with observations or mucous signs.

 

[aloe]

If the cup can completely act as a barrier for blood <i.e., not leak any blood and prevent it from going anywhere for those days during the cycle>, I could see where it might act as a significant barrier for sperm. I am not sure how it would work though. I could also see where it would work to help fertility and help the sperm stay in place if used right after the sperm is deposited.

 

[twoangels]

So my wife and I were recently wed (Jul 8) and are currently practicing NFP because she is in her second year of med school (boards, et all very hectic) and I have yet to find a full time job since seperating from the army . We are trying to extend her safe days and I recently discovered a product called soft cup softcup.com/faqs

It seems to be an alternative to a tampon or pad but a selling point is less messy sex. In it’s FAQ - see above- it says that it is NOT a contraceptive, but I just want to bounce this off the faithful and see if they can confirm that it would be consistent with Catholic teaching.

Thanks

Anthony

From what the product says about itself and what its intended purpose is, I do not think using it would be sinful. I’d say condemning its use would be like condemning using water based lubricants because it looks similiar to spermicide. If some lubricant company advertised and stated to you that there were no contraceptive side effects, but 10 years down the line it was found there was some chemical in it that made it a little more difficult for sperm to pass than without lubricant, any contraceptive effect would not be intended. I’d say it’d fall under the principal of double effect and you’d be less culpable for it because to the best of your knowledge it did not have a contraceptive effect at all.

 

[divinefaith]

I would check with your NFP practicioner, the softcup could interfere with observations or mucous signs.

Wonder if it would OP should find out

 

[Fidelia]

From what the product says about itself and what its intended purpose is, I do not think using it would be sinful. I’d say condemning its use would be like condemning using water based lubricants because it looks similiar to spermicide. If some lubricant company advertised and stated to you that there were no contraceptive side effects, but 10 years down the line it was found there was some chemical in it that made it a little more difficult for sperm to pass than without lubricant, any contraceptive effect would not be intended. I’d say it’d fall under the principal of double effect and you’d be less culpable for it because to the best of your knowledge it did not have a contraceptive effect at all.

I’m not sure how safe the “double effect” thing is though. People can take the birth control pill for medical reasons and say that in that case the contraceptive aspect is “just a double effect” and not the intended one. The only difference is that the pill is chemical and can also be abortifacient, not only contraceptive.

To me, the use of that cup during intercourse looks like a clear and present barrier, regardless of what the primary intent is. It’s not like there’s a dire reason for it anyway. There’s no danger in intercourse during menstruation.

 

[DoubleL37]

So my wife and I were recently wed (Jul 8) and are currently practicing NFP because she is in her second year of med school (boards, et all very hectic) and I have yet to find a full time job since seperating from the army . We are trying to extend her safe days and I recently discovered a product called soft cup softcup.com/faqs

It seems to be an alternative to a tampon or pad but a selling point is less messy sex. In it’s FAQ - see above- it says that it is NOT a contraceptive, but I just want to bounce this off the faithful and see if they can confirm that it would be consistent with Catholic teaching.

Thanks

Anthony

I am currently learning about NFP Creighton Model so it may be different than the NFP methods you are using, but I have been told that during moderate and heavy days of your cycle you may be fertile (but with the Creighton Model you can not tell for sure). If you are trying to avoid pregnancy, I would not consider having sex during those days.

 

[divinefaith]

I agree. It may be correct that there is no moral issue since the intent is only for menstrual protection and the product itself is only designed for that, but I am inclined to think that it probably would work as a pretty decent barrier. When the website says it shouldn’t be used for contraception it is probably just to cover themselves.

Just an aside: These probably are not much better ecologically or economically than pads or tampons. They are disposable and need to be purchased repeatedly. I would recommend the Diva Cup for general menstrual usage. It is really quite convenient and reusable. Though it does need to be removed for intimacy, since it is not places up near the cervix, but lower near the opening.

edit: This just came to mind also: A woman is typically not fertile anyway during the first 5 days of a cycle (cf the “first 5 days rule”), so unless she menstruates for longer than 5 days, she is not fertile during her period. “…it is likely that the vast majority of women who truly conceived from sex during their period had intercourse at the end of a long menstruation, on Day 6 or after…” Toni Weschler, Taking Charge of Your Fertility. 2006 page 128. (What she teaches in this book is basically the sympto-thermal method)
So, knowing she’s likely not even fertile when she would be wearing the instead cup during her period, does that change the circumstances?

If a couple is using ‘Billings’ method or ‘Creighton’ then there are rules on sex during menstruation. Symptothermal method seems most acceptable of intercourse during that period, but as another poster pointed out, there might be a limit to the amount of days they could use during menstrual period, this I think is based on cycle length and maybe other factors. I dont know much so OP or anyone else who is interested can ask an
expert.

 

[RedSoxWife]

This product does not work “as a diaphragm”, nor is it intended to be used as contraception. It is made of different materials which aren’t likely to block sperm either.

If the OP was going to use it as a contraceptive, he and his wife would just use something more effective. They would be using this as it is intended- a device to capture menstrual flow, not to block sperm.

I have one. They’re usually made of silicone. I don’t see sperm swimming through silicone, do you? It blocks the blood from escaping from the cervix and catches it. That means that it blocks the sperm from going in.

Can we really not wait while a woman is bleeding to be intimate?

For those who don’t know how it works, it’s inserted and twisted so it suctions on. The seal is pretty tight. I would see this as something “coming between” the marriage act since your cervix is completely blocked.

 

[Katie966]

I have one. They’re usually made of silicone. I don’t see sperm swimming through silicone, do you? It blocks the blood from escaping from the cervix and catches it. That means that it blocks the sperm from going in.

Can we really not wait while a woman is bleeding to be intimate?

For those who don’t know how it works, it’s inserted and twisted so it suctions on. The seal is pretty tight. I would see this as something “coming between” the marriage act since your cervix is completely blocked.

If you read the description of this particular product, it clearly specifies that it is not made of silicone. Menstrual fluid is thick and able to be contained; sperm is microscopic. Two different substances.

Also, apparently when using the bathroom it becomes temporarily “dislodged”, allowing for leakage, because the muscles bear down. It’s likely that the same thing could happen during sex. Same muscle group.