Will an economic stimulus package help us during recession?

[stinkcat_14]

C. Both parties tacitly “adopted” the notion that anyone whose income is over $75,000 ($150,000 for couples) are members of “the rich”. My goodness! They determined that “the rich” would only SAVE any rebates they got, so nothing doing.

Around 6% of households in the US make more than $150k. If your in the top 6% of the richest country on the planet, that would seem like rich to me.

How would you define rich?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Around 6% of households in the US make more than $150k. If your in the top 6% of the richest country on the planet, that would seem like rich to me.

How would you define rich?

I’d start out by not defining them as “guilty” and accusing them of “cheating.” I would not define them as needing punishment, or of needing to be “taken down a peg.”

I would define “rich” as “Those who work harder than the rest of us, create the jobs the rest of us depend on, and generally provide the prosperity we need to deal with this country’s problems.”

That sound fair?

 

[SoCalRC]

Um, there is no social security fund. Social security tax money goes into the general tax fund. Sorry to burst your bubble. Why am I even paying social security? I’m 21, and by the time I’m old enough there won’t be any left for me.

No, it goes into Treasury bonds. It is actually a Federal Crime to claim that the US government will not honor such bonds.

As it stands right now, we have to do financial projections out to infinity, coupled with truly dismal growth to show any shortfall in Social Security at all. When politicians talk about ‘bankrupt’ and ‘worthless IOUs’, they are, well, lying. Most of them have big chunks of their own trust funds in Treasury bonds.

The reason you pay into Social Security is the same reason one would buy health insurance. By providing a large pool of low risk, insured investment, everyone is provided with a starting point for retirement. Otherwise, old age and poverty cycle wildly with the economy. Primarily it helps middle class Americans. Having to suddenly pay for Grandma’s retirement would push even more citizens out of that shrinking class.

Medicare is going broke. But that is because it is the worst of all possible worlds. The insurance pool only covers the most expensive group of citizens (the elderly) when it comes to health care. And it is now inhibited, by law, from using it’s free market clout. Plan D should have driven drug prices down, since it is a large buying pool. Instead, we are seeing increases far outpace inflation - because we wanted them to, and wrote the law accordingly.

 

[Maxply]

Vern, I think historically most Americans ADMIRE the rich, RESPECT them, and very often VOTE them into office. Sure, there are some folks with sour grapes, though, but they come across as squeeky wheels and troublemakers. . .

I would suspect (wouldn’t you?) that the RICH (yeah, top 6% works for me) VERY FREQUENTLY get a bye when it comes to pulling their true weight:

(a) proportionately less in taxes (they lobby for tax cuts, breaks, loopholes–how fair is this?) than their gain in the current economic game would call for;

(b) I think it’s very unfair to pull a Rush Limbaugh and got hot about taxing rich individuals, as if that’s unethical or improper. It’s often the rich who are doing the “class warfare”; I’m stunned by how few politicians or leaders take on the issue on behalf of the average middle class person. But perhaps its rich contributors chucking them $5,000 checks: I haven’t given that much to any politician.

That’s it for me. I don’t have all day to ply the boards.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I’d start out by not defining them as “guilty” and accusing them of “cheating.” I would not define them as needing punishment, or of needing to be “taken down a peg.”

This of course, is totally irrelevent to the question, because I have not accused anyone of cheating, nor have I argued that anyone needs to be punished.

I would define “rich” as “Those who work harder than the rest of us, create the jobs the rest of us depend on, and generally provide the prosperity we need to deal with this country’s problems.”

That sound fair?;

So someone who inherits $5 million and chooses to retire because of it is not rich? How would you describe such a person?

Your definition seems rather imprecise.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, it goes into Treasury bonds.

Only recently has this happened. For most of the time, it was a simple bookkeeping process.

Nowadays, we have a huge, expensive facility in West Virginia that ceremoniously prints fancy “bonds” and stores them away in a super-secure vault – bonds which are payable only to the Social Security Administration!

But despite this sleight of hand, there is really no trust fund. Not one cent of interest has ever been paid on the "Social Security Trust Fund.:

It is actually a Federal Crime to claim that the US government will not honor such bonds.

And who will be tried for such a crime?

As it stands right now, we have to do financial projections out to infinity, coupled with truly dismal growth to show any shortfall in Social Security at all. When politicians talk about ‘bankrupt’ and ‘worthless IOUs’, they are, well, lying. Most of them have big chunks of their own trust funds in Treasury bonds.

Bonds held by individuals, to be paid by the government are one thing. Bonds held by the** government**, to be paid by the government are another.

 

[mapleoak]

I would suspect (wouldn’t you?) that the RICH (yeah, top 6% works for me) VERY FREQUENTLY get a bye when it comes to pulling their true weight:

(a) proportionately less in taxes (they lobby for tax cuts, breaks, loopholes–how fair is this?) than their gain in the current economic game would call for;

Guess what the federal income tax rate as a percentage is for someone making $160,000 annually versus someone making $30,000? Define what you mean by ‘proportionately less’.

 

[mapleoak]

So someone who inherits $5 million and chooses to retire because of it is not rich? How would you describe such a person?

How many of the so-called 6% of ‘rich people’ would you say inherited $5 million dollars?

 

[stinkcat_14]

How many of the so-called 6% of ‘rich people’ would you say inherited $5 million dollars?

Very few, but of course, there would be no reason to exclude them from being considered: “rich”.

It appears that Vern is trying to define being rich as something virtuous. Others may see it as something lacking in virtue. My problem is nobody seems to put a lot of thought into is considered rich.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This of course, is totally irrelevent to the question, because I have not accused anyone of cheating, nor have I argued that anyone needs to be punished.

Nobody accused you of anything – but if you follow these boards, you will see a lot of resentment against “the rich” – and that resentment often spills over into a clamor for a general razoo against “the rich.”

So someone who inherits $5 million and chooses to retire because of it is not rich? How would you describe such a person?

Your definition seems rather imprecise.

So someone who earns $5 million and is involved in an automobile accident and left paralyzed and unable to communicate because of it **is **rich? How would you describe such a person?

Your definition seems rather imprecise.

(in another post)
It appears that Vern is trying to define being rich as something virtuous. Others may see it as something lacking in virtue.

But by and large, that top 6% in American made it themselves. And in the process, created jobs and sometimes whole industries on which the rest of us depend for our livelihood.

So on the whole, I’d say my definition is more accurate than the opposite, no?

Further, if we make it impossible for the best and brightest and hardest working to become rich – what will become of us ordinary slobs?

 

[lukewarm]

I couldn’t help but laugh to see Nancy Pelosi proudly declaring the tax breaks, the same ones the Democrats revolted over when Bush did them the first time.

Maybe it’s the rising pressure of the terrible economy and overall sorry state of affairs ever sicne this incompetent Democratic Congress took the helm. I mean they’ve done nothing to earn their paycheck while America went down the drain. Face it with a Republican President and Congress the economy was strong, now the Dems want to blame a guy like Greenspan for the economy? Come on now…

Will it help? It will certainly help me…

 

[lukewarm]

Around 6% of households in the US make more than $150k. If your in the top 6% of the richest country on the planet, that would seem like rich to me.

How would you define rich?

I live in New York and a household income of 150 K won’t even get you basic housing for a family of 5 without struggling. We make about that a little less and live in a tiny three bedroom about 60 miles outside NYC in a dump of a town off the 17, I commute two hours each way and have no money left after taxes, bills, and my mortgage we’re far from rich. Of course if I live in Tuskaloosa Alabama 150K I may live like a king, but people have to understand a NY’er only gets about $0.75 on his $1.00. Worst taxes in America, 150K in NY is a strained household not rich, not to mention I’m getting laid off in May.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I live in New York and a household income of 150 K won’t even get you basic housing for a family of 5 without struggling. We make about that a little less and live in a tiny three bedroom about 60 miles outside NYC in a dump of a town off the 17, I commute two hours each way and have no money left after taxes, bills, and my mortgage we’re far from rich. Of course if I live in Tuskaloosa Alabama 150K I may live like a king, but people have to understand a NY’er only gets about $0.75 on his $1.00. Worst taxes in America, 150K in NY is a strained household not rich, not to mention I’m getting laid off in May.

Then why don’t you move to Alabama? Last I heard, there was no limit on interstate migration.

 

[lukewarm]

Then why don’t you move to Alabama? Last I heard, there was no limit on interstate migration.

If all NY’ers did that our country (even the world) would go into a full blown depression, someone has to keep this ship afloat while all the bleeding heart whiners try to destroy this country.

NYC is our economic lifeline, to recommend people be penalized for living in a high tax area and should just up and leave is stupid, the effects would mean disaster for our country, even people in Alabama…

The point is “rich” isn’t relative, you can’t simply designate one number as the cut off, it fluctuates depending on where you live. It’s a simple concept, even our military would give more money for housing and food allowances based on cost of living. It’s really a simple and basic economic principle, if you apply yourself you can get it. Look at taxes and housing for NY, 150K isn’t worth nearly as much in NY as it is elsewhere, NY’ers shouldn’t be penalized and left out of a tax rebate when they pay by far the most taxes in the US, they should get double what everyone else gets.

 

[Benedictus]

Then why don’t you move to Alabama? Last I heard, there was no limit on interstate migration.

Better to be poor in New York than rich in Alabama.

 

[stinkcat_14]

If all NY’ers did that our country (even the world) would go into a full flown depression, someone has to keep this ship afloat while all the bleeding heart whiners try to destroy this country.
.

I am not quite sure that I follow you. What activities must occur in NY that cannot occur in Alabama?

NYC is our economic lifeline, to recommend people be penalized for living in a high tax area and should just up and leave is stupid, the effects would mean disaster for our country, even people in Alabama…

I am not so sure what is being done in NY that cannot be done anyplace else. Is it because all of the TV networks are in NY, oh wait, there is a TV network in Alabama. But seriously, local taxes are the easiest to avoid. You just move.

The pint is “rich” isn’t relative, it fluctuates depending on where you live. It’s a simple concept, even our military would give more money for housing and food allowances based on cost of living. It’s really a simple and basic economic principle, if you apply yourself you can get it

Certainly, there are geographic differences in the cost of living. But there is no place where $150k is considered poor. Even in NY the person making $150k has better housing, better healthcare and more stuff than 99% of the worlds population.

 

[mapleoak]

Very few, but of course, there would be no reason to exclude them from being considered: “rich”.

Someone falling within this 6% segment is an inadequate definition of ‘rich’.

It appears that Vern is trying to define being rich as something virtuous.

That is not my take on it. Rich is a state that is in and of itself neutral.

Others may see it as something lacking in virtue. My problem is nobody seems to put a lot of thought into is considered rich.

and the mentioned 6% segment does not fill the bill.

Then why don’t you move to Alabama? Last I heard, there was no limit on interstate migration.

Because then he would be ‘rich and evil’.

 

[mary_bobo]

Better to be poor in New York than rich in Alabama.

That’s a matter of opinion. I guess we all love where we are from.

 

[stinkcat_14]

and the mentioned 6% segment does not fill the bill.

What is your definition of rich?

 

[mapleoak]

I am not so sure what is being done in NY that cannot be done anyplace else. Is it because all of the TV networks are in NY, oh wait, there is a TV network in Alabama. But seriously, local taxes are the easiest to avoid. You just move.

Wages typically follow what the market will bear in any given locale. The same type of work done in Alabama does not pay at the same rate as the exact same type of work done in NY. Moving to alabama means doing the same work, earning less money, and more than likely maintaining the same standard of living (or below). This does not equal rich.

Even in NY the person making $150k has better housing, better healthcare and more stuff than 99% of the worlds population.

a person earning $10k earns more than most of the world’s population. Are they rich?